Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: Did William Borden exist  

1. "Did William Borden exist"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Feb-8th-04 at 11:22 AM

Is ther any real proof that ANdrews bastard son William really did exsist?


2. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Feb-8th-04 at 11:37 AM
In response to Message #1.

Or was the namne Billy? Seams i have seen both namne or i am missunderstanding somthing.


3. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by MarkHinton63 on Feb-8th-04 at 1:32 PM
In response to Message #2.

"Billy" is an informal name for "William." It's the same person.

William Borden was a real person, but he was not related to Andrew according to almost everything I have read or been told. Somebody else could help you out more then I could. I have only been researching Lizzie for a short time.


4. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by william on Feb-8th-04 at 3:20 PM
In response to Message #1.

Mr. Leonard Rebello, noted author and Lizzie Borden historian, had this to say:
"It was alleged by author Authur R. Brown, that William S. Borden, the illigitimate son of Andrew J. Borden and Phebe Borden (wife of Deacon Charles L.C. Borden) committed the Borden murders in 1892.  William Borden's family was researched through primary and secondary sources. No information was located to substantiate Mr. Brown's allegations.
(Lizzie Borden - Past and Present by Leonard Rebello, page 373).


5. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by Kat on Feb-8th-04 at 4:20 PM
In response to Message #1.

Billy, Billie and William- all the same person.

Gathered and copied here from my other posts:
>>>>>

Re: Brown correspondence to LBQ and other answering letters:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BrownControversy.htm

The Keller article, 1995, shows Taunton State records with a William Borden:
"The information does indeed establish that William Borden was in the asylum at one time prior to the April 20, 1901 news article. However, the time of his stay at the facility is recorded as December 8,1874 to December 2,1875. That is almost 20 years before the date that Arnold Brown supposes that Bill was committed to the asylum. "
.......

Keller, Jon. N. "The Mysterious William S. Borden." Lizzie Borden Quarterly, Vol. II, No. 4/5 (Fall/Winter 1995): 15-18.

"5821覧William S. Borden Act. 19 Married Fall River Labour.
F.覧Taunton 4 weeks Hereditary. 2 Sisters and 2 Aunts insane.
Dec. 8th覧Sister no. 4822, Loss of employment had a depressing effect.
1874覧Melancholy, Suicidal. Went into the pond this a.m.
Prob. Ct.覧Wil. S. was married eight weeks ago. Temperate. at entrance
quick-depressed.
Wife覧Dec. 2nd 1875. Patient was quite depressed and very quiet through the
East覧winter. Towards spring he began to wake
Taunton蓉p and become very active. Early in
Mass.覧March was at work in the laundry. In April was allowed his parole of the
Father覧grounds. he went everywhere, and was
Charles覧 up to all sorts of mischief When shut in
hall he became quite troublesome and
Fall River覧destructive and was secluded in a screened room for a fortnight. In May
Sister覧he eloped, and was gone 24 hours
Eliza A.覧went to Fall River and New Bedford.
Borden覧returned voluntarily sent to rm. 8
#10,232 R覧 Early in August he was up to all the
#12,310 R覧 mischief possible breaking glass,
#13,570覧 tearing off window casings, digging off mortar etc.
Tried belts, straps, seclusion
Sister覧 etc. with little avail. Learning that an
Amanda覧 iron crib was being constructed for his
Taylor覧 especial benefit, he desisted saying he
#4822覧 did not want to get into anything that he
#11,255覧 could not get out of. Oct. 20th. he eloped,
was gone a week and then brought back
on the 27th of Oct. has been doing very
well, Has worked out some. Always
inclined to get into trouble striking with
very little provocation. Was discharged
to go by himself
Dec. 2nd 1875. Discharged Recovered p. 286
5821 (p. 287) William S. Borden Act. 19 Married
May15-01 A few days ago the above patient Wm. S. Borden
committed suicide by taking carbolic acid, and afterwards
hanging himself to a tree by the roadside."

--From the Museum Library/ New Research-
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/NewResearch/BrownControversy.htm

Keller points out that he found the commitment papers for a William Borden's stay at Taunton-- why did Brown make such a mystery of it?

I think if you do a "SEarch" here on the Forum you will find a bio posted not long ago.

[See Below}:
.............
--If William Borden was married in 1874 at approx. 20 years old, he would be 38 when the murders occured.

--Rebello's research on William s. Borden, pg. 373+

"Profile: Charles Lott Church Borden was born in Fall River, November 12, 1811, and was the tenth of twelve children born to Joseph Borden (1763-1843) and Susan Church. Charles Borden was a carpenter and was involved in church work all his life. He was a member of the First Baptist Church in 1846. He later assisted in the formation of Second Baptist Church, serving as a deacon for many years.

Deacon Borden was married twice. His first marriage, at the age of twenty-eight, was to Phebe Hathaway, age twenty-three, on October 16, 1839. She was the daughter of Michael and Hannah (Davis) Hathaway of Freetown, Massachusetts. Phebe was born in Freetown, July 30, 1816. Charles L. and Phebe (Hathaway) Borden were the parents of six children: Charles A. Borden, Amanda M. Borden, Hannah H. Borden, Eliza Ann Borden, Eliza Ann Borden (2nd.), and William S. Borden."
.....

"The last son, William S. Borden, was born in Fall River, April 20, 1854 (see marriage record, Weld Genealogy, p. 253 and Federal Census, 1900) William, age twenty, a laborer and peddler, married seventeen year old Rebecca Francis Gammons of East Taunton, Massachusetts, October 14, 1874. They were married in Raynham, Massachusetts, by Rev F. A. Reed. Rebecca was born in East Taunton (January, 1858- ?). She was the daughter of Lewis B. Gammons, a nailer who worked for the Old Colony Iron Company, and A. Frances Gammons. Rebecca was the sister of Frederick B., a shoemaker and Jesse B. Gammons. The Gammons and Bordens all resided at 38 Liberty Street from 1872-1901. Within those years, William moved twice (1885-1893, 1896-1897) to a house at the corner of Caswell and Staples Streets located about a half mile from Liberty Street. This was the home of Eldridge Staples and his son, Charles G., both farmers. William returned to Liberty Street in 1898. Two months after he was married, William was committed to Taunton Lunatic Hospital in Taunton, Massachusetts, December 8, 1874, and released December 2, 1875. William S. Borden committed 'suicide by hanging.' He was found hanging from a tree on New Boston Road in Fall River, on April 17, 1901 (death record). Hospital records and newspapers accounts of William Borden's suicide reported that his two sisters, 'Eliza Ann Borden [2nd.] and Amanda (Borden) Taylor and two aunts were at the asylum in Taunton at the time William committed suicide. He was survived by his wife who had been "ill and ...partially helpless for some time." ' Funeral services were conducted by Rev. Mr. H. H. Loud at the Congregational church in Taunton. Burial took place at King's Furnace Cemetery (King Cemetery) in East Taunton, Massachusetts. His wife and her two brothers moved to Brockton, Massachusetts, in 1909. Rebecca Borden's last known residence was in Bridgewater, Massachusetts, in 1917."

-Whew!




(Message last edited Dec-23rd-03 2:31 AM.)


6. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by jimmy windeskog on Feb-8th-04 at 4:25 PM
In response to Message #4.

So William was the son of Phebe and Charles L.C. Borden?

If that i the case, should it not be easy to know his whereabouts while the murders took place? Even if Brown wrote this book a long time later this should be quite easy i think.

Someone who has an ide? Wating for Rays to write soon =)


7. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by Kat on Feb-8th-04 at 4:35 PM
In response to Message #6.

Rays knows only what's in  Brown's book.  If you have that, then you know what he knows, plus the above I have collected. 


8. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by jimmy windeskog on Feb-8th-04 at 5:59 PM
In response to Message #7.

Thank you very much Kat.

But from what i can read the information dosent really say anything that exludes him from the pic (but, of chorse, dosent really give us any information that puts him in the pic either).

I havent read Browns book so i really dont know what he bases his story on.
But Kat, from what i can read you dosent seam to but his ides, can you please a littel of what you think about story?

(and pardon my terrible english....)


9. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by Kat on Feb-8th-04 at 7:15 PM
In response to Message #8.

Just about anyone here can give you a critque of Brown's theory.
I have not read him in many years.

Anyone welcome to update Jimmy....?


10. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by njwolfe on Feb-8th-04 at 8:28 PM
In response to Message #9.

You are a kind and patient lady Kat!
I don't know why, but I have two of the Brown book, I'd be happy
to send my extra copy to Jimmy, just email me your address through
this site's mail feature.  Brown's book was very good but left too
many questions in my mind.  I don't discount it though, it is one
possible solution. I like Fritz's better but still have questions.
This case is so much fun because it just can't be solved. (Not yet
anyway)


11. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by Raymond on Feb-9th-04 at 4:37 PM
In response to Message #3.

William S Borden was the son of a preacher, and cousin to Lizzie and Emma. Don't remember the connection to Charles Borden, the preacher.
I believe only AR Brown discusses this relationship; altho they say this was an old rumor, like the story of Bridget getting paid off to help Lizzie.
This kind of stuff would never go on paper, for obvious reasons. The fact that WSB Birth Certificate was impounded does say something.


12. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by Raymond on Feb-9th-04 at 4:43 PM
In response to Message #8.

AR Brown explains it in his book. He was born in Fall River 1925. In the 1980s he retired and moved to Florida. He then met the son-in-law of Ellan Eagan, an had a pile of papers written by Henry Hawthorne before his death around 1977. Brown was intruiged by this story, and sought help and advice from the Fall River area. The book tells it all, and acknowledges his help. Brown was not a professional writer like the others (R Sullivan at least wrote legal opinions).

Brown sort of suggests that maybe the killing of Bertha Manchester was done to prove the murderer was still at large; and maybe WSB was then put away afterwards. He admits he could get nothing from the Staunton Asylume when he asked for it. There is a certain amount of belief needed for his opinion. But he did not invent anything of the basic story (illegitimate son kills miserly father).

The Howe story that "Emma did it" is a left-handed testimony: an unsuspected child of Andy did it.

(Message last edited Feb-10th-04  5:57 PM.)


13. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by Kat on Feb-9th-04 at 4:44 PM
In response to Message #11.

Which fact is that that WSBorden's birth certificate was *impounded*?
Please be extra careful?


14. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Feb-10th-04 at 4:42 AM
In response to Message #13.

Rigth on the point Kat.

I havent read the Brown-story yet, but dose we REALLY know that WSBs papers was impounded, and if so - by who?


15. "Basic facts"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Feb-10th-04 at 10:07 AM
In response to Message #14.

Also, to slip in that WSB was Andrew's bastard son as part of that "basic fact" statement is not cricket, either.


16. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by Raymond on Feb-10th-04 at 5:57 PM
In response to Message #13.

A R Brown explains why he could find no birth certificate. The birth certificate of an illegitimate child was not public knowledge by Massachusetts law. Does anyone question his fact?


17. "Re: Basic facts"
Posted by Raymond on Feb-10th-04 at 5:58 PM
In response to Message #15.

Mistyping corrected.


18. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by haulover on Feb-10th-04 at 10:19 PM
In response to Message #12.

***Brown sort of suggests that maybe the killing of Bertha Manchester was done to prove the murderer was still at large; and maybe WSB was then put away afterwards.***

according to this........what ruthless conspirators, what scum.  did these conspirators suggest the manchester murder to the bastard son?  sounds like they had an axe murderer on a leash  and that they would really plot to this exent?  i understand the cruetly in the human heat and its desperation.  i just don't buy this and other parts of the theory.  explain how a madman with an axe under his butcher's apron can be rationally, efficiently instructed and guided?


19. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by audrey on Feb-10th-04 at 10:24 PM
In response to Message #18.

I just feel that the level of conspiracy Brown suggests is unrealistic.  Too many people in on it, which would-- in my opinion, be impossible to keep secret.  There would have been leaks.



20. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by Raymond on Feb-11th-04 at 2:38 PM
In response to Message #18.

This corresponds to the suggestion of a planned murder. Or the need to get poor Lizzie off from a crime she didn't do. I don't know how a person can be controlled to murder; but it does happen a lot.
Remember the fictional story "The Manchurian Candidate"? Do you think it was only fiction? Remember "MK Ultra" project for the CIA?


21. "Re: Did William Borden exist"
Posted by Raymond on Feb-11th-04 at 2:40 PM
In response to Message #19.

There would be no leak from any rational person whose best interest was to keep the secret. The "suicide" of WSB shows how they can keep a secret if one crazy enough to speak out is silenced.

Of course, this is speculation from the known facts. AR Brown handles this very well. A well-dressed man swallows carbolic acid, climbs up a tree with a logging chain, then hangs himself. Really?