Brown admitting hoax

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RayS
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Post by RayS »

Harry @ Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:31 pm wrote:Hello, StevenB, welcome to the forum!

I don't know whether you are referring to the forum or to the books on the crime about references to the smell.

We have in the past, on this forum, discussed the lingering effects that would permeate the house. A stay of over an hour and a half would certainly leave its mark. It is one of the many holes in Brown's book.

Again, welcome.
Here is the absolute truth about Brown's book.
1) It provides a reasonable solution to the crime.
2) No one can ever disprove it by convicting someone else.
3) This forum will never be in agreement on this.
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Post by Harry »

Angel @ Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:45 pm wrote:"Hoax" wasn't my word- it came up this morning when I was reading through the archives. Someone used it when talking about his interview, but I read so much that I can't find it again.
Angel, you'll find the interview with Brown on Mondo at:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizz ... rden-case/

Actually the real killer was Bill Pavao. Despite the long coat and cool hat he's easily recognizable. :smile: Seriously, he did a great job in that documentary.
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Post by Smudgeman »

RayS @ Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:38 pm wrote:
Harry @ Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:31 pm wrote:Hello, StevenB, welcome to the forum!

I don't know whether you are referring to the forum or to the books on the crime about references to the smell.

We have in the past, on this forum, discussed the lingering effects that would permeate the house. A stay of over an hour and a half would certainly leave its mark. It is one of the many holes in Brown's book.

Again, welcome.
Here is the absolute truth about Brown's book.
1) It provides a reasonable solution to the crime.
2) No one can ever disprove it by convicting someone else.
3) This forum will never be in agreement on this.

No here is the absolute truth.
1) It provides a far fetched fancy of a writer's imagination
2) No one can ever be convicted of the crime, because THEY ARE ALL DEAD
3) This forum would be better off without the rantings of an old jackass that is called RAYS. Please note, your IGNORE button will NOT make the jackass go away, it will only encourage him to continue to be the MONUMENTAL JACKASS that he is.
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Post by theebmonique »

Thank you, Scott.





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Post by snokkums »

hello steven b and welcome to the forum
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Re: Brown admitting hoax

Post by twinsrwe »

StevenB @ Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:48 am wrote:There was HUGE flaw in Brown's book/theory that I am surprised no one picked up on it. At least in all my readings I haven't seen it pointed out. Brown claimed William Borden reeked of horse urine and that the smell was so bad that allegedly it made a woman sick when she passed by him while he was standing in the Bordens yard. (I'm not saying this is true, just quoting Brown's book). If he smelled that bad he could not have hidden in the Borden house for any length of time undetected, because he'd be noticed from the smell. AND If he hid in the house for over an hour between the murders not only would someone notice, but the smell, being that strong, according to Brown, it would have lingered esp. on a hot August day............ For me, that killed Brown's theory the minute I read his book! I'm really surprised no one picked that up and I've read dozens of book reviews on Brown's book trying to see if anyone caught that.

Steven
Steven, you are not the only one who has picked up on the 'stench of horse urine' blooper in Brown's book. I, too, picked up on this and a couple of other flaws as well. I read Brown's book when it was first published; at the time, I didn't put a lot of stock in his theory because he claimed that his book was written from the memoirs of Henry Hawthorne, yet, when you read his book it is written as if from the memoirs of Ellan Eagan, not Henry Hawthorne. At that time, I basically chalked his book up as a very questionable theory, and didn't think much about it. I felt it was an OK story, but nothing to split hairs over. However, since the topic's of "Proof of Arnold Brown's Theory - Part 1 of 2" and "Proof of Arnold Brown's Theory - Part 2 of 2" came out on the forum, I decided to re-read and pick-apart Brown's book to see if I may have been mistaken in my initial impression of his book. Following are the discrepancies I found regarding the stench of a dead horse's urine... (Please note: I am only going to type up the parts of Brown's text that deal with the issue of a dead horse's urine; my personal comments and questions will be typed using a blue font).


On page 7 of Brown's book, Brown tells us that Ellan Eagan had gone to Sargent's for some yard goods. Heading home she took Second Street. On pages 8-9 of Brown's book, titled Thursday, August 4, 1892. Brown wrote:

As she neared the Borden house on her way up the hill, she wondered if that silly girl was still washing the windows.

No, the maid was not in sight, but Ellan saw a man in the Borden yard, just standing there. There was something about this man that was wrong! He was about halfway between the gate and the back stoop, and he was facing her. He turned as if to go back. His clothes were dirty and course, but what had caught her eye was that he was wearing an overcoat - and on one of the hottest days of the year! He stopped and turned his face toward her. His eyes looked into hers.

She sucked in her breath, gasping. Feeling faint, she shivered and almost cried out in terror. Speak of the Devil and he will appear roared in her ears. I am seeing the Devil!

When he took a step toward her, she ran. She had to get away, and somehow she did, feeling the fire from his eyes burning right through her. Even though she was confused and filled with terror, she knew something else was wrong, too. As she sped away her senses finally told her what it was. It was his odor - one that she had never smelled before. It was not sour, not sweet, not a manure smell, not sweat... not anything she could even imagine! Intent on getting help, she ducked into the first yard she came to, gasping and sobbing. Then she was sick.

When her wits returned, Ellan was on the ground under a shade-giving elm tree on cool, comforting grass. She wasn't sure whether she had fainted, but she realized she must have done so. Even if she had fainted, she had no idea how long she had been there.

Suddenly she remembered what had frightened her and looked around. There was nothing but the usual traffic.


This man, whom Brown claims was Bill Borden, had come face to face with an eye witness who saw him standing in the Borden's yard. Why in the world would this man, who had, supposedly, just killed two people, allow an eye witness to go free? Why didn't he kill her, too? Granted someone would have, most likely, seen him do the deed, if he attempted to do her in there, but, he could have gotten to her and killed her at a later time, before she had a chance to go to the police. I just cannot see a killer letting an eye witness go without tracking her down and doing away with her. This just does not make sense to me. Furthermore, why was Ellan Eagan the only person to see this man standing in the Borden's yard on the very busy Second Street?


On pages 4-5 of Brown's book, titled Summer of 1911. Brown wrote:

Ellan's whole family had come to the parade together. Even Little Mary's beau - Henry Hawthorne - was there. It was all so grand until she saw the horsecars, two of them, like those that had disappeared from the streets twenty years earlier when almost overnight, the electric streetcars replaced them. The instant she saw the first horsecar, she shivered with the strangest chill. Then, as they passed where she was standing, suddenly Ellan gave a small cry of alarm, and - for only the second time in her life that she could remember - she fainted.

When she regained consciousness, she tried to convince her family that nothing was wrong. In, fact, nothing was, at least nothing she could explain. It had been years since she thought about her "devil," not that she didn't talk about the day of the Borden murders. Why, hardly a week went by without someone talking about it.

Ellan had been surprised at her reactions when the horses passed by in the parade. It was the odor that had stunned her, and when the first horsecar passed, she had had an imaginary glimpse of the man in the long coat, an imagined stare into his burning eyes, and a lingering, chilling whiff of that forgotten smell - whatever it was - that she had so successfully banished from her senses all those many years. She knew what horses smelled like, and this order was nothing related to any of the hundreds of horses with which she had had contact. She was honestly frightened.


We are to believe that the odor Ellan smelled at this parade is the same odor she smelled on August the 4th, 1892, when she, supposedly, came face to face with a man, whom Brown claims was Bill Borden, standing in the Borden's yard. At the time of this parade, Bill Borden was no where around; he had been dead for 10 years! (Note: This parade took place the summer of 1911; see page 4 of Brown's book for this information. Bill Borden died April 17th, 1901; see page 295 of Brown's book for the date of his death).


On pages 289-291, of Brown's book, Ellan Eagan questions Henry Hawthorne about Bill Borden's odor. Brown wrote:

"Just tell me. Did Bill Borden ever stink real bad?" she persisted, almost begging.

"He was a farmer. He killed and gutted chickens and ducks, he slaughtered many a horse, he butchered pigs and cows, and anytime anyone shot a deer he was the one they called upon to butcher it. He mucked his barn twice a day. Of course he stunk. I never knew a farmer who didn't. Why?"

"No," she said sternly. "Was there ever a time when he smelled of stink you can't describe?"

"No," he told her honestly. "But I remember the time he made me stink to high heaven, if that answers your question. I'll never forget that awful stench, and I swore I would never smell like that again."

"Well. I hope you never do, too, whatever it was. Tell me about it." They both seemed to relax as Henry returned to his boyhood days with the newfound confidence that he could handle all the frightening memories that had lingered so long in his life.

Bill was not above playing pranks on Henry. One memorable practical joke occurred when he told Henry how to clean himself after the last hard day of cleaning the casks. When Henry had finished the cleaning to Bill's satisfaction, Bill handed him a jar of something that looked like axle grease and a cake of lye soap and told him to be sure and rub this secret grease on all of the spots of his body where the cider residue and the cleaner had come in contact. Henry did exactly as he was told and, when he got into the waterhole that was a summertime bath tub, every part of his skin he had rubbed with Bill's grease began to burn. When the burning stopped, he noticed the foulest odor he had ever smelled. He sniffed the water, the soap, the rag; they all smelled awful. He dried and dressed and ran from the waterhole, but the stench seemed to follow him.

Henry had to sleep in the barn that night and for the next three nights, too, which was no hardship to a young farm boy. It seemed that the livestock grew restless in his presence through, as if he offended them. He knew he offended any human who came within yards of him. The smell lasted two weeks.

Henry added that during his war service he had kidded a veterinarian about the perpetual odor of his boots, and the vet told him that horse urine had high concentrates of many waste product chemicals in it and that sniffing it was one of the quickest ways to determine imbalances that could point directly to possible health problems in the animal. The vet then delivered an unasked-for lecture on the possible variations in odor that could occur and the ramifications of each.

Henry didn't really listen until the doctor mentioned a fatal disease called Blister Beetle Poisoning and the related stench always found in the dead horse's bladder. He had laughed when the vet mentioned that the blister beetle is also known as "Spanish Fly," but stopped laughing when the doctor added that getting any of the dead horse's urine on your own skin was not recommended unless you wanted to be ostracized from the human race until it wore off. When Henry asked if it could be washed off with soap and water, he was told that water would make it worse.

"Your Bill Borden acted as a vet or a renderer, didn't he? He removed dead horses, you told me," Ellan stated.

"Oh, I figured it out that Bill had added something to that jar of salve he gave me to use long before the vet explained what it might have been."


Then, on page 313, of Brown's book. Brown wrote:

William may have entered the Borden house by the front door opened by Uncle John (with Lizzie's knowledge) at some time before midnight on August 3, talked with Lizzie and Uncle John, and then slept in the same room as Uncle John or in Emma's empty bedroom. An alternative is that he spent the night in the hayloft of the Borden barn and was admitted to the cellar that morning by Lizzie after Uncle John and her father had left the house. At that time Bridget was outside at the front of the house, and Lizzie, knowing that a note had been delivered to her stepmother, thought Abby had changed her clothes and left the house with William Bassett on some real or imagined errand of mercy.


I have to question why Bill's odor was not detected by someone in the household that fateful day; Andrew, Abby, Bridget, Dr. Bowen, Mrs. Churchill, the policemen... ; someone would surely have detected the stench. If Bill Borden's odor was so repulsive that he would have been ostracized from the human race, livestock grew restless, and the stench followed him where ever he went for a period of two weeks, then why wasn't his odor detected? According to Brown everyone in that household, with maybe the exception of Bridget, knew who Bill Borden was. If they knew who he was, they would also know that he reeked to high heaven. If Ellen Eagan could smell Bill's odor, while they were both outside, he in the Borden's yard, between the gate and the back stoop and she on the sidewalk, which means that she was standing several feet away from him, you know that it was extremely strong.

If Bill slept in the same room as Uncle John his odor would have lingered in the sheets that would have touched his body. The stench would have also clung to Uncle John's clothing, hair, and skin. I would also think that William's stench would, most likely, have fumigated the entire upstairs and possibly traveled down the staircase to the front entry way. Surely, Abby would have picked up on this stench when going upstairs to tidy up the room where Uncle John slept. Wouldn't Andrew have detected the odor while having breakfast with Uncle John?

If Bill slept in Emma's room, the stench would have lingered in the sheets that would have touched his body, and would, mostly likely, have fumigated the entire upstairs and possibly traveled down the staircase to the front entry way. Again, Abby would have picked up on this stench when going upstairs to tidy up the room where Uncle John slept.

If Bill spent the night in the hayloft, Bridget would have detected his stench. Didn't Bridget go out to the barn to get the water the wash the windows? Even if Bridget did not detect the odor in the barn, you cannot tell me that his odor would not have been detected by someone after he spent and hour to an hour and a half in the house waiting for Andrew.

I totally agree with you, Steven, if this man smelled that bad, he could not possibly have hidden in the Borden house for any length of time without being detected. The stench would have lingered in the house for hours after he had left. I really cannot see how any of the people who were in the house that day could possibly have missed it.

I saved, what I feel is the best question for last... Brown claims, and we are to believe, that the odor of the man Ellan Eagan saw in the Borden's yard the morning of the murders, was the odor from a dead horse's urine. If this is true, where was the dead horse with it's bladder exposed, so that it gave off the stench of urine that Ellan Eagan was so stunned by that she fainted at the parade which took place in the summer of 1911? If there was no dead horse, then what or whom was the odor coming from? Obviously, it was not coming from Bill Borden, since he had been dead a few years at the time of this parade.

The stench of a dead horse's urine, along with a couple of other discrepancies that I am finding, definitely axed Brown's theory for me.
Last edited by twinsrwe on Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kat »

Thanks! You went to a lot of trouble.

Why did this BB have to smell like horse urine, anyway?
And why make HH smell like that too?
Someone remind me?
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Re: Brown admitting hoax

Post by StevenB »

Wow! Thank you for taking the time to do that, that's an incredible amount of work and really appreciate that. That will be a huge help with my paper. That was exactly what I was talking about when I posted. I have to go and read the post for Brown hoax parts 1 and 2. I ssspent all last night reading these post and forgot to do my homework for my class today! Lizzie always gets me in to trouble!



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Post by Angel »

RayS @ Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:14 pm wrote:[Don't let the door hit your back on the way out. Thank you!

What an incredibly vile person to say something like that. And how that can be allowed to be continued is unbelievable. What does Ray have over you, Stefani? You haven't answered any of my messages. I am extemely disappointed in you. I expect a total lack of respect from someone like him, but I thought someone in charge of a forum would have more for her members. Poor public relations, to say the least. I give up- it's just not worth any more effort.
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Post by RayS »

Angel @ Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:27 am wrote:
RayS @ Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:14 pm wrote:[Don't let the door hit your back on the way out. Thank you!

What an incredibly vile person to say something like that. And how that can be allowed to be continued is unbelievable. What does Ray have over you, Stefani? You haven't answered any of my messages. I am extemely disappointed in you. I expect a total lack of respect from someone like him, but I thought someone in charge of a forum would have more for her members. Poor public relations, to say the least. I give up- it's just not worth any more effort.
And I still say you sound like the departed Au**ey!! The above attempts at manipulation are another example of what Au**ey was doing before she was outed.

Has anyone here ever met either of them? Or talked on the phone (caller ident).
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Post by RayS »

Smudgeman @ Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:00 pm wrote:
RayS @ Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:38 pm wrote:
Harry @ Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:31 pm wrote:Hello, StevenB, welcome to the forum!

I don't know whether you are referring to the forum or to the books on the crime about references to the smell.

We have in the past, on this forum, discussed the lingering effects that would permeate the house. A stay of over an hour and a half would certainly leave its mark. It is one of the many holes in Brown's book.

Again, welcome.
Here is the absolute truth about Brown's book.
1) It provides a reasonable solution to the crime.
2) No one can ever disprove it by convicting someone else.
3) This forum will never be in agreement on this.

No here is the absolute truth.
1) It provides a far fetched fancy of a writer's imagination
2) No one can ever be convicted of the crime, because THEY ARE ALL DEAD
3) This forum would be better off without the rantings of an old jackass that is called RAYS. Please note, your IGNORE button will NOT make the jackass go away, it will only encourage him to continue to be the MONUMENTAL JACKASS that he is.
At least you're not bothering me with your insults via private messages!!!
1) it is not far-fetched at all; it came from the memoirs of a Fall River inhabitant (who Brown never met).
2) people can be convicted in the Court of Public Opinion, alive or dead.
3) Your insults are definitely not part of an intellectual debate. But I guess its the best you can do given your condition.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Post by twinsrwe »

Kat @ Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:34 am wrote:Thanks! You went to a lot of trouble.

Why did this BB have to smell like horse urine, anyway?
And why make HH smell like that too?
Someone remind me?
These are very good questions, Kat.

According to Arnold Brown's book, Henry Hawthorne did not verify that Bill B. ever smelled like a stink you can't describe. See my previous post regarding the part where Ellan E. is, supposedly, questioning Henry H. about Bill Borden's odor. Brown is insinuating that the stench of a stink you can't describe, is the same as the stench found in a dead horse's urine that had become infected with the fatal disease called Blister Beetle Poisoning. If Bill Borden never smelled of a stink you can't describe, then how could the man that Ellan Eagan claimed she saw in the Borden's yard the day of the murders, possibly be Bill Borden?

As far as Henry H. smelling like a dead horse's urine, goes... Again, see my previous post. Supposedly, it was a 'memorable practical joke' which was played on Henry by Bill. Why? Because, according to Brown's book, Bill was not above playing pranks on Henry.

Keep in mind, according to Arnold Brown, that the stench Ellan E. claimed she smelled on the man she saw in the Borden's yard the day of the murders and again at the parade in 1911 was the stench found in a dead horse's urine, that had become infected with the Blister Beetle Poisoning disease, not the smell of urine from a live horse. Bill Borden had already been dead for 10 years by the time of the parade in 1911, so, who had the dead horse's urine on them at the parade?

The dead horse's urine part of Brown's book just does not add up, does it?
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Re: Brown admitting hoax

Post by twinsrwe »

StevenB @ Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:50 am wrote:Wow! Thank you for taking the time to do that, that's an incredible amount of work and really appreciate that. That will be a huge help with my paper. That was exactly what I was talking about when I posted. I have to go and read the post for Brown hoax parts 1 and 2. I ssspent all last night reading these post and forgot to do my homework for my class today! Lizzie always gets me in to trouble!



Steven

Thank-you, Steven. Yes, I did spend was a lot of time researching and typing up that post, however, if it is appreciated by even one person, then it was worth it. That one person is you - Thank-you. I'm glad I could be of help to you. (Please see the response post that I just submitted to Kat, you may find it interesting). If I may ask, what paper are you writing? I apologize for asking this question if you have already posted the answer. Yes, Lizzie tends to get us all in trouble at times! BTW, welcome to the forum - I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.
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Post by DWilly »

RayS @ Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:14 pm wrote:
Smudgeman @ Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:00 pm wrote:
RayS @ Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:38 pm wrote: Here is the absolute truth about Brown's book.
1) It provides a reasonable solution to the crime.
2) No one can ever disprove it by convicting someone else.
3) This forum will never be in agreement on this.

No here is the absolute truth.
1) It provides a far fetched fancy of a writer's imagination
2) No one can ever be convicted of the crime, because THEY ARE ALL DEAD
3) This forum would be better off without the rantings of an old jackass that is called RAYS. Please note, your IGNORE button will NOT make the jackass go away, it will only encourage him to continue to be the MONUMENTAL JACKASS that he is.
At least you're not bothering me with your insults via private messages!!!
1) it is not far-fetched at all; it came from the memoirs of a Fall River inhabitant (who Brown never met).2) people can be convicted in the Court of Public Opinion, alive or dead.
3) Your insults are definitely not part of an intellectual debate. But I guess its the best you can do given your condition.

Could you, please, tell me where I could find those memoirs? I have read Brown's book and now I would like to see, read and verify his main source. Thank you.
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Response to Ray re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Roy Nickerson »

Sorry for the delay in responding to your post..have been away from the forum for a couple of days.

Ray, If you could take a break from worshipping at the shrine of Arnold Brown long enough to read the Witness Statements, you might find some interesting things about Seabury Bowen that suggest he may have not been adverse to providing a little assistance.
I'll not detail them here. I'VE done the reading, now it's your turn.
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Post by twinsrwe »

Steven - I asked you in a previous post on this tread, what paper are you writing? I truly apologize as I found the answer to this question in the topic tiled "gushing newbie.....". Your paper sounds as if it is going to be very interesting. Good luck writing it, and I hope you will consider sharing the contents of it with us when you are finished. :grin:
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Post by Kat »

I appreciated your post and I copied it out to read the whole thing while on the couch. :smile:

You do quote Brown as saying:
"Henry had to sleep in the barn that night and for the next three nights, too, which was no hardship to a young farm boy. It seemed that the livestock grew restless in his presence through, as if he offended them. He knew he offended any human who came within yards of him. The smell lasted two weeks."


But then your comment, in blue:
"If Bill Borden's odor was so repulsive that he would have been ostracized from the human race, livestock grew restless, and the stench followed him where ever he went for a period of two weeks, then why wasn't his odor detected?"

I was paying attention. :smile:
I wasn't sure which guy you meant in your blue comment?
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Post by SallyG »

RayS @ Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:10 pm wrote:
Angel @ Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:27 am wrote:
RayS @ Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:14 pm wrote:[Don't let the door hit your back on the way out. Thank you!

What an incredibly vile person to say something like that. And how that can be allowed to be continued is unbelievable. What does Ray have over you, Stefani? You haven't answered any of my messages. I am extemely disappointed in you. I expect a total lack of respect from someone like him, but I thought someone in charge of a forum would have more for her members. Poor public relations, to say the least. I give up- it's just not worth any more effort.
And I still say you sound like the departed Au**ey!! The above attempts at manipulation are another example of what Au**ey was doing before she was outed.

Has anyone here ever met either of them? Or talked on the phone (caller ident).
Awwww, Ray.....shut up!!
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Post by SallyG »

While I love this forum, and would love to contribute more to it, Ray is the reason I don't, and also the reason I vacate the premises for long periods of time. I just get sick of his behavior.

I can't figure out myself why Stefani lets him continue his antics, other than perhaps he amuses her.
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Post by Smudgeman »

SallyG @ Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:47 pm wrote:While I love this forum, and would love to contribute more to it, Ray is the reason I don't, and also the reason I vacate the premises for long periods of time. I just get sick of his behavior.

I can't figure out myself why Stefani lets him continue his antics, other than perhaps he amuses her.

Alot of us feel the same way you do SallyG, and we have voiced our opinions about it. Yet he is still allowed to go on behaving the way he does.
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Post by RayS »

The stench of a dead horse's urine, along with a couple of other discrepancies that I am finding, definitely axed Brown's theory for me.
Your long, long posting certainly deserves a reply. It seems to be quoting out of context in order to justify your predetermined need to not believe Brown's story. Short posting of 25-35 lines are more practical to answer.

Basically you seem to be confusing the practical joke played on young Henry with the normal smell of horses. (Those who have associated with working horses on a farm, pretty much obsolete since the 1950s can best comment on this.) At any rate, it must be in the memoirs.

What was Ellan Eagan's condition at the time? Vomiting suggests morning sickness. Would that make some woman more sensitive to smells? You certainly should know how stories that are retold sometimes pick up extra facts from a recovered memory.

In any event, the smell is NOT the basis of Brown's book. It is rather the story of an Intruder or Secret Visitor whose presence was kept secret. There were rumors about this, probably with good reason.

Note how this view of the murders works because it explains the unexplicable. The innocence of Lizzie, the fixed verdict, etc. Brown's theory explains this as the Copernican theory explained the rotation of the planets.

My Part 4 of Brown's theory will try to bring it all together for any reasonable person (such as casual browsers of this forum). Those who are part of the Lizzie Dunnit business won't accept it, but I don't care.
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Post by RayS »

SallyG @ Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:47 pm wrote:While I love this forum, and would love to contribute more to it, Ray is the reason I don't, and also the reason I vacate the premises for long periods of time. I just get sick of his behavior.

I can't figure out myself why Stefani lets him continue his antics, other than perhaps he amuses her.
That is no excuse for not contributing, IMO.
If you have something valid to contribute, how can anyone find fault with that?
Too many seem compulsively negative, as shown a few months ago when the author of a new book visited this site. Remember?
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Re: Response to Ray re: Dr. Bowen

Post by RayS »

Roy Nickerson @ Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:26 pm wrote:Sorry for the delay in responding to your post..have been away from the forum for a couple of days.

Ray, If you could take a break from worshipping at the shrine of Arnold Brown long enough to read the Witness Statements, you might find some interesting things about Seabury Bowen that suggest he may have not been adverse to providing a little assistance.
I'll not detail them here. I'VE done the reading, now it's your turn.
Ok, my turn is that I do not want to spend more time on this subject than is necessary. You may be falling into the view that someone who reads this material will somehow figure out what all those around at the time missed? Can that really happen? I don't think so. But what ever you discover may be of interest to others.

Just don't try to pin the murder on the good doctor who seemed to have an alibi for the murder of Andy. As far as I know, he had been away with his driver. Or was that all lies?
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Post by RayS »

Angel @ Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:27 am wrote:
RayS @ Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:14 pm wrote:[Don't let the door hit your back on the way out. Thank you!
What an incredibly vile person to say something like that. And how that can be allowed to be continued is unbelievable. What does Ray have over you, Stefani? You haven't answered any of my messages. I am extemely disappointed in you. I expect a total lack of respect from someone like him, but I thought someone in charge of a forum would have more for her members. Poor public relations, to say the least. I give up- it's just not worth any more effort.
Perhaps you can do better by reading some books and contributing your opinions on this unsolved murder? You know where I stand.
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Post by 1bigsteve »

:sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping: Oh, I'm sorry Rays, did you say somethi... :sleeping:

-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
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Post by RayS »

Here is a quote from a poster, who serves as the Devil's Advocate against Brown's theory. I don't mind this, just can't spend too much time now.
No, the maid was not in sight, but Ellan saw a man in the Borden yard, just standing there. There was something about this man that was wrong! He was about halfway between the gate and the back stoop, and he was facing her. He turned as if to go back. His clothes were dirty and course, but what had caught her eye was that he was wearing an overcoat - and on one of the hottest days of the year! He stopped and turned his face toward her. His eyes looked into hers.

She sucked in her breath, gasping. Feeling faint, she shivered and almost cried out in terror. Speak of the Devil and he will appear roared in her ears. I am seeing the Devil!

When he took a step toward her, she ran. She had to get away, and somehow she did, feeling the fire from his eyes burning right through her. Even though she was confused and filled with terror, she knew something else was wrong, too. As she sped away her senses finally told her what it was. It was his odor - one that she had never smelled before. It was not sour, not sweet, not a manure smell, not sweat... not anything she could even imagine! Intent on getting help, she ducked into the first yard she came to, gasping and sobbing. Then she was sick.
A very interesting passage. Ever pass by some homeless person in August? Do they smell sweet? If you saw somebody like that standing in the yard of a rich man wouldn't you take note of it?
That passage sounds very real to me. I wonder how much was improved by the retelling over the years?
Many here echoeed the "Legends of Lizzie" without questionoing them, so why are they now objecting to another story?
One that has a real person as the author and mentions the time, date, and place!!!
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Post by RayS »

Here is another quote from the AntiBrown critic:
I have to question why Bill's odor was not detected by someone in the household that fateful day; Andrew, Abby, Bridget, Dr. Bowen, Mrs. Churchill, the policemen... ; someone would surely have detected the stench. If Bill Borden's odor was so repulsive that he would have been ostracized from the human race, livestock grew restless, and the stench followed him where ever he went for a period of two weeks, then why wasn't his odor detected? According to Brown everyone in that household, with maybe the exception of Bridget, knew who Bill Borden was. If they knew who he was, they would also know that he reeked to high heaven. If Ellen Eagan could smell Bill's odor, while they were both outside, he in the Borden's yard, between the gate and the back stoop and she on the sidewalk, which means that she was standing several feet away from him, you know that it was extremely strong.
I didn't read that in your quote. Brown's mention of that horrible stink was not said to be operative at the parade circa 1912 or 1892.
Or am I missing something here?

Brown's theory works in providing a parallax view of the mystery. But I guess some won't agree. Fine, just publish your book and get it accepted in the Public Libraries of this country. Can't do it, can you?
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Post by SallyG »

RayS @ Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:12 pm wrote:
SallyG @ Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:47 pm wrote:While I love this forum, and would love to contribute more to it, Ray is the reason I don't, and also the reason I vacate the premises for long periods of time. I just get sick of his behavior.

I can't figure out myself why Stefani lets him continue his antics, other than perhaps he amuses her.
That is no excuse for not contributing, IMO.
If you have something valid to contribute, how can anyone find fault with that?
Too many seem compulsively negative, as shown a few months ago when the author of a new book visited this site. Remember?
You just don't get it, do ya, Ray? YOU have decided for yourself that Brown's idea works...all the pieces fit neatly. If you like his scenario, all well and good. No one is saying that you don't have the right to believe what you want.

HOWEVER...listen up, Ray; I'm making a point.....others have their own ideas about what might have happened. And while it is enjoyable to trade ideas and toss about scenarios of what might have happened, it gets very trying when you are always beating them down and insisting that they are wrong because their idea does not agree with what Brown wrote, and what you accept as gospel. Your mind is closed. We all realize that.

Is YOUR behavior a good reason for not contributing....of course. You seem to enjoy beating others down and disparaging their ideas. For all I know, that's how you get your jollies. Maybe you enjoy the attention...negative attention, but attention just the same.

Perhaps if you would lighten up a bit and not try to be such an overbearing know-it-all, others might take you more seriously and there would be no collective groan of dismay when your posts appear.

I, for one, get tired of your outrageous behavior....and I can make a choice to avoid this forum and not be annoyed by you.

Incidently, my absence has not been because of you....I had the unfortunate task of dealing with the death of my small niece. However, I returned to find you still here.........and still preaching the Gospel According To Brown.
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Post by Kat »

I'm sorry for your loss SallyG.
That is terrible.

Sometimes it seems tho that people project onto ray what they themselves are feeling.
If we were in a room with him I don't think we would misbehave toward him. Maybe just ignore?
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Post by Roy Nickerson »

Ray, I never suggested that Bowen had a hand in the murders, but only that he may have aided the murderer by possibly removing the weapon from the premises. He had the opportunity and the means. As to motive, I refer again to the witness statements and a couple of entries therein that are interesting and somewhat enigmatic...food for thought, as it were.
The witness statements are source material and were collected immediately following the murders.
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Post by RayS »

Kat @ Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:38 am wrote:I'm sorry for your loss SallyG.
That is terrible.

Sometimes it seems tho that people project onto ray what they themselves are feeling.
If we were in a room with him I don't think we would misbehave toward him. Maybe just ignore?
You're right! Even just being on the phone will let you hear the tone of voice, etc in real time. In person its another thing.

But I never expect to meet the others here in a room. You know what happened to that experienced Russian KGB operative in a sushi bar?

Altho its against my better (?) judgment, I would like to apoligize sincerely to all who I have unwittingly offended.

A disagreement on the solution does strike sparks.
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Post by theebmonique »

Ray...your apology would honestly be worth accepting if it were given wholeheartedly, and without reservation. But, you suggest it is against your better judgement, so how can it be sincere ? My question is intended to be an honest question...no sarcasm intended.





Tracy...
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I Smell A Rat

Post by StevenB »

It just dawned on me, maybe Bill Borden was why Brodget threw up that morning! :shock:
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Post by RayS »

SallyG @ Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:14 pm wrote:...
You just don't get it, do ya, Ray? YOU have decided for yourself that Brown's idea works...all the pieces fit neatly. If you like his scenario, all well and good. No one is saying that you don't have the right to believe what you want.

HOWEVER...listen up, Ray; I'm making a point.....others have their own ideas about what might have happened. And while it is enjoyable to trade ideas and toss about scenarios of what might have happened, it gets very trying when you are always beating them down and insisting that they are wrong because their idea does not agree with what Brown wrote, and what you accept as gospel. Your mind is closed. We all realize that.
Is YOUR behavior a good reason for not contributing....of course. You seem to enjoy beating others down and disparaging their ideas. For all I know, that's how you get your jollies. Maybe you enjoy the attention...negative attention, but attention just the same.

Perhaps if you would lighten up a bit and not try to be such an overbearing know-it-all, others might take you more seriously and there would be no collective groan of dismay when your posts appear.

I, for one, get tired of your outrageous behavior....and I can make a choice to avoid this forum and not be annoyed by you.
Incidently, my absence has not been because of you....I had the unfortunate task of dealing with the death of my small niece. However, I returned to find you still here.........and still preaching the Gospel According To Brown.
First, I've never said that "all the pieces fit neatly", and neither did Brown "no documentary proof" of William S. Borden's parentage, or even when he was confined to Taunton.
Second my Proof of Brown's Theory Parts 1-4 prove my mind is not closed. I do not think the motive of not being in a non-existent will is enough of a motive. I have an idea that will explain Lizzie's shielding of the murderer of her Father covers a far darker secret than illegitimacy.
Your accusations just delay me from finishing part 4. Is that what you want?
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Re: Response to Ray re: Dr. Bowen

Post by RayS »

Roy Nickerson @ Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:26 pm wrote:Sorry for the delay in responding to your post..have been away from the forum for a couple of days.

Ray, If you could take a break from worshipping at the shrine of Arnold Brown long enough to read the Witness Statements, you might find some interesting things about Seabury Bowen that suggest he may have not been adverse to providing a little assistance.
I'll not detail them here. I'VE done the reading, now it's your turn.
AS far as I know, Dr. Bowen't limo driver picked him up around 9:30am and drove to the patient that he treated, and returned after 11am.
If the schedule doesn't fit, you must acquit. (Heh-heh.)
The bottom line in this is: what motive would Dr. Bowen have for concealing and disposing of a bloody hatchet? None that I could imagine.
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Post by Kat »

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/NewResear ... oversy.htm
Keller, Jon. N. "The Mysterious William S. Borden." Lizzie Borden Quarterly, Vol. II, No. 4/5 (Fall/Winter 1995): 15-18.
.......
Further, it shows that William was never in Taunton during the 1890's as Brown supposes, but rather in the 1870's an therefore his treatment there seems to have had no relationship to either the Borden or Manchester murders. The file clearly shows no admissions for Bill between the date of discharge on December 2, 1875 and the last curious entry in the record dated May 15, 1901, which concerns his alleged suicide in Fall River.

Now I present, for the readers' convenience of reading, a transcript of the contents from the one-and-a-half page document concerning William S. Borden's association with the Taunton mental facility:

5821——William S. Borden Act. 19 Married Fall River Labour.
F.——Taunton 4 weeks Hereditary. 2 Sisters and 2 Aunts insane.
Dec. 8th——Sister no. 4822, Loss of employment had a depressing effect.
1874——Melancholy, Suicidal. Went into the pond this a.m.
Prob. Ct.——Wil. S. was married eight weeks ago. Temperate. at entrance
quick-depressed.
Wife——Dec. 2nd 1875. Patient was quite depressed and very quiet through the
East——winter. Towards spring he began to wake
Taunton—up and become very active. Early in
Mass.——March was at work in the laundry. In April was allowed his parole of the
Father——grounds. he went everywhere, and was
Charles—— up to all sorts of mischief When shut in
hall he became quite troublesome and
Fall River——destructive and was secluded in a screened room for a fortnight. In May
Sister——he eloped, and was gone 24 hours —
Eliza A.——went to Fall River and New Bedford. —
Borden——returned voluntarily — sent to rm. 8
#10,232 R—— Early in August he was up to all the
#12,310 R—— mischief possible — breaking glass,
#13,570—— tearing off window casings, digging off mortar etc.
Tried belts, straps, seclusion
Sister—— etc. with little avail. Learning that an
Amanda—— iron crib was being constructed for his
Taylor—— especial benefit, he desisted — saying he
#4822—— did not want to get into anything that he
#11,255—— could not get out of. Oct. 20th. he eloped,
was gone a week and then brought back
on the 27th of Oct. has been doing very
well, Has worked out some. Always
inclined to get into trouble striking with
very little provocation. Was discharged
to go by himself
Dec. 2nd 1875. Discharged Recovered p. 286
5821 (p. 287) William S. Borden Act. 19 Married
May15-01 A few days ago the above patient Wm. S. Borden
committed suicide by taking carbolic acid, and afterwards
hanging himself to a tree by the roadside.
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Post by RayS »

There seems to be a problem here.
Dec. 2nd 1875. Discharged Recovered p. 286
5821 (p. 287) William S. Borden Act. 19 Married

May15-01 A few days ago the above patient Wm. S. Borden
committed suicide by taking carbolic acid, and afterwards
hanging himself to a tree by the roadside.
WHY would they keep track of Willy's marital status? Something wrong here?
READ the sentences on his death. 'He took poison, then hanged himself'? Isn't that a very strange suicide? No suicide note? No mention of any cause of suicide? Isn't that a very suspicious death, then or now?
Arnold Brown is right to question this suspicious form of death!

Anybody know what the effects of swallowing carbolic acid are?
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Post by twinsrwe »

RayS @ Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:01 pm wrote:READ the sentences on his death. 'He took poison, then hanged himself'? Isn't that a very strange suicide? No suicide note? No mention of any cause of suicide? Isn't that a very suspicious death, then or now?

I don't know as though Bill Borden's suicide was all that strange or suspicious. I grew up on a dairy farm. When I was in high school, my older brother was hired by our next door neighbor to help with milking his cows and doing all of the chores involved with dairy farming. They had finished the milking and before doing the chores, decided to have breakfast. During the time my brother was home eating his breakfast, our neighbor committed suicide by stepping up on top of a 5 gallon bucket, put a rope around his neck, then shot himself in the head. My brother found him when he returned to do the chores. No suicide note was left. We could only speculate as to why he was so determined to take his own life. Suicides are not always logical.
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Post by RayS »

Here is a list of the symptoms of carbolic acid poisoning (see Lysol).
Do you think these would allow someone dressed in his Sunday best to then climb a tree and hang himself with a logging chain? Believable?

Symptoms
Bladder and kidneys
Decreased urine output
No urine output
Blue or green colored urine
Lungs
Deep, rapid breathing
Wheezing
Eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and throat:
Yellow eyes
Severe burns in the mouth and windpipe (esophagus)
Skin
Blue lips and fingernails
Yellow skin
Burns
Gastrointestinal
Nausea
Vomiting
Diarrhea
Stomach pain
Heart and blood
Drop in blood pressure
Rapid heart rate
Nervous system
Hyperactivity
Stupor (lack of alertness)
Coma
Convulsions
Whole Body
Excessive thirst
Heavy sweating
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Post by Smudgeman »

I would have to agree. most suicides are not explainable. A person that would carry it through would have to be in terrible anguish that nobody around him or her understood. Someone in my family committed suicide and left a note, while a good friend of mine committed suicide and left no note or indication as to why he chose to end his life. Suicides are NOT always logical.
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Post by RayS »

I don't have Brown's book before me as I type this. Brown questions this "suicide" as really being a disguised murder. Could very well be.
Just read those pages and see for yourself.

Just read those symptoms and decide for yourself. It is the poisoning and the hanging that is suspicious. Then the strange newspaper stories about it.
Brown spent 2 years investigating this case.
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Post by Smudgeman »

Oh yes, he spent 2 years studying from some memoirs nobody can produce.
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Post by twinsrwe »

Smudgeman @ Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:07 pm wrote:I would have to agree. most suicides are not explainable. A person that would carry it through would have to be in terrible anguish that nobody around him or her understood. Someone in my family committed suicide and left a note, while a good friend of mine committed suicide and left no note or indication as to why he chose to end his life. Suicides are NOT always logical.
I totally agree. Whatever a person's reason may be for committing suicide, must be overwhelming to the point that they just can not face the problem or find a way out of their dilemma. Many people who are thinking of taking their own life say nothing to anyone. Many people do not understand the reasoning behind a person choosing to commit suicide, let alone that person going to extra lengths to make sure that their attempt is final.
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

In response to your question above Ray, that is the one about swallowing Carbolic Acid, it would be almost instant death. Perhaps when it did not have the results he expected he hung himself.

The term for the acid he used is not used today. Today they call it Phenol. Willie probably used it as a weed killer. It's used as a weed killer even today.

Of course it has many uses. It is a base for making aspirin and is used in hospitals as a local antiseptic. But in concentrated form it will cause instant and painful death if swallowed.

The Nazis used it and injected it into their victims as a means of killing.
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Post by SallyG »

RayS @ Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:16 pm wrote:
SallyG @ Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:14 pm wrote:...
You just don't get it, do ya, Ray? YOU have decided for yourself that Brown's idea works...all the pieces fit neatly. If you like his scenario, all well and good. No one is saying that you don't have the right to believe what you want.

HOWEVER...listen up, Ray; I'm making a point.....others have their own ideas about what might have happened. And while it is enjoyable to trade ideas and toss about scenarios of what might have happened, it gets very trying when you are always beating them down and insisting that they are wrong because their idea does not agree with what Brown wrote, and what you accept as gospel. Your mind is closed. We all realize that.
Is YOUR behavior a good reason for not contributing....of course. You seem to enjoy beating others down and disparaging their ideas. For all I know, that's how you get your jollies. Maybe you enjoy the attention...negative attention, but attention just the same.

Perhaps if you would lighten up a bit and not try to be such an overbearing know-it-all, others might take you more seriously and there would be no collective groan of dismay when your posts appear.

I, for one, get tired of your outrageous behavior....and I can make a choice to avoid this forum and not be annoyed by you.
Incidently, my absence has not been because of you....I had the unfortunate task of dealing with the death of my small niece. However, I returned to find you still here.........and still preaching the Gospel According To Brown.
First, I've never said that "all the pieces fit neatly", and neither did Brown "no documentary proof" of William S. Borden's parentage, or even when he was confined to Taunton.
Second my Proof of Brown's Theory Parts 1-4 prove my mind is not closed. I do not think the motive of not being in a non-existent will is enough of a motive. I have an idea that will explain Lizzie's shielding of the murderer of her Father covers a far darker secret than illegitimacy.
Your accusations just delay me from finishing part 4. Is that what you want?
Not at all, Ray. I am intrigued by this far darker secret. One of the reasons I have a hard time with Browns theory is that I just can't see Lizzie risking going to jail and possibly facing a death sentence to shield an illegitimate son of Andrews.
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Post by RayS »

You all may now read Parts 1 to 4. I do not think Lizzie chose to be tried as the murderer of her father, only that she would not tell all that she knew.

I'm sure most of us would not tell about our suspicions about a relative if we were not eyewitnesses to a misdemeanor. But we would be vigilant, since this person just may have Bad Luck. My experience in life is that Bad Luck is contagious; if you hang with people who have troubles it will rub off on you. (But I'll bet the compulsively contrary will object to this.)

I figured that Lizzie would never keep back the secret of who murdered her father, unless it would expose a dark and dirty secret. Illegitimacy is one (patricide). But far more murders have occurred over an unpaid debt than the chance of not being in a will. Andy had no will - Lawyer Jennings.
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Post by RayS »

You all may now read Parts 1 to 4. I do not think Lizzie chose to be tried as the murderer of her father, only that she would not tell all that she knew.

I'm sure most of us would not tell about our suspicions about a relative if we were not eyewitnesses to a misdemeanor. But we would be vigilant, since this person just may have Bad Luck. My experience in life is that Bad Luck is contagious; if you hang with people who have troubles it will rub off on you. (But I'll bet the compulsively contrary will object to this.)

I figured that Lizzie would never keep back the secret of who murdered her father, unless it would expose a dark and dirty secret. Illegitimacy is one (patricide). But far more murders have occurred over an unpaid debt than the chance of not being in a will. Andy had no will - Lawyer Jennings.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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