How well did Lizzie get along with abbys relatives

[snokkums]

I think we all know how Lizzie and Emma felt about Abby, but did this extend to Abbys relatives too? Or did she know Abbys relations?

[Tina-Kate]

We don't know how they may have related while Lizzie was growing up, but we know things weren't rosy in Lizzie's adulthood. Esp after the incident of the Whitehead house. I believe one of the relatives said Lizzie would snub them on the street.

There was an interview with a Mr Case (he & his wife were friends of Abby) that said Abby would talk to them & her relatives about how "the girls" treated her badly & that she died before saying more about it.

There are a number of sources saying how Lizzie would not acknowledge Abby's relatives (I'm at work & can't give quotes/sources directly). Of course, there is "Little Abby" (Abby's great niece) who late in life spoke negatively about Lizzie & I think she started the rumor of Lizzie having killed Abby's cat. (I've always wondered if Lizzie perhaps euthenized a sick cat & this got twisted around to murder).

So, no---Lizzie (& I believe Emma too) didn't get along with Abby's kin.

[snokkums]

I had always wondered if the cat thing was a rumor or not. Lizzie didn't seem the kind of person to kill an animal, even if didn't like Abby. But, it would make sense for her not to acknowledge Abby relatives

[augusta]

In the Sourcebook, there's an interview that George Whitehead supposedly gave. Lizzie hated him and his wife "Bertie", Abby's half-sister whose half-house Andrew bought for Abby so Bertie wouldn't get evicted. So there is some doubt as to whether Lizzie actually talked with G. Whitehead at all, let alone at length as the paper claims he said.

Somewhere Lizzie says that George Whitehead might be the murderer.

Andrew disliked his sister, Lurana's, husband because Andrew thought him as being lazy and not giving Lurana a good enough standard of living.

According to Inquest testimony, Emma disliked Abby more than Lizzie.

According to testimony Lizzie disliked Uncle John, but Emma corresponded regularly to him.

According to Nellie McHenry, who did an interview shortly after the murders with Bridget (McHenry claimed to be a relative to get to see her), Bridget didn't like 'the girls' treating Abby so badly.

[Kat]

I'm sorry- but I don't understand your reference to George Whitehead, Augusta...do you mean Lizzie pointed the finger at Andrew's sister's husband, Hiram Harrington? I don't remember any interview with George Whitehead at all- but Mr. Fish (Abbie's sister's husband) did give one (Aug. 9, 1892). Maybe these are the names you mean?

I also don't recall testimony that Lizzie *disliked* Uncle John. We have Emma testifying that he was a "dear" uncle of theirs- hers and Lizzie's- but then stops herself and modifies that to his being a dear uncle of hers..
Questioning tried to elicit any fact that Lizzie and Morse did not see each other at all this trip and any recent trip of his to Fall River- but even Morse said Lizzie would sometimes eat with them at table when he was there (but he couldn't really pin down when)... can someone show where there is testimony that Lizzie disliked Morse?

[Kat]

We don't know how they may have related while Lizzie was growing up, but we know things weren't rosy in Lizzie's adulthood. Esp after the incident of the Whitehead house. I believe one of the relatives said Lizzie would snub them on the street.

There was an interview with a Mr Case (he & his wife were friends of Abby) that said Abby would talk to them & her relatives about how "the girls" treated her badly & that she died before saying more about it.

There are a number of sources saying how Lizzie would not acknowledge Abby's relatives (I'm at work & can't give quotes/sources directly). Of course, there is "Little Abby" (Abby's great niece) who late in life spoke negatively about Lizzie & I think she started the rumor of Lizzie having killed Abby's cat. (I've always wondered if Lizzie perhaps euthenized a sick cat & this got twisted around to murder).

So, no---Lizzie (& I believe Emma too) didn't get along with Abby's kin.

The "Mr. Case" I think of is in The Knowlton Papers, 105- as saying:

Rescom Case 199 Second St. Fall River. I have lived in Fall River 57 years and I know all the Bordens and the Morses well. A sister of Mrs. Morse (Lizzies mother, married his cousin, a man named Morse, they now live here in Fall River. I use to know Anthony, father of Lizzies mother. He has a brother now living in Warren Mass. the woman that was murdered use to visit my house often, but she use to keep her affairs to herself pretty well, but I assure you I have my opinion of Lizzie Borden and I hope they will get more evidence. My wife dont know any more than I do aboute the Bordons or Morses. We never heard that anyone of them is or ever was Insane but I think some of them worse than Insane.

--This was in response to the *Sanity Survey* conducted by the prosecution's investigator, Moulton Batchelder, Nov.24,1892.

[Tina-Kate]

Thanks Kat. There is also another one, either in newspaper sources or Witness Statements. I believe his wife is also quoted in the one I was thinking of.

[Kat]

Well, I tried to word search "case" but of course that bogged me down in the newspapers we have.
I think there was a relative named Mrs. Cluny who stated that Lizzie could shun people in her own house- just walk by them like they weren't there.
The name "Case" is familiar and I can only say he's hard to find. I was trying to think where to look for him. It's not in Tricky/McHenry is it?
I already checked Proceedings- the "Hip-bath Collection", and William's Case Book.

[Harry]

Mrs. case is quoted in an Aug. 13th, 1892 Boston Globe article, titled "To Whom The Property", when she was interviewed by Globe reporter John W. Carberry. Mrs. Whitehead is also quoted in that same article.

Here is the Case interview:

"Mrs. Rescom Case, a cousin of Mrs. Borden, residing at 199 2d st., was very intimately associated with the murdered woman. Mrs. Case has no personal interest in the deceased relative's estate, but she knew well Mrs. Borden's intentions as to the disposal of her personal estate. "Mrs. Borden did not say much about her family troubles," says Mrs. Case, "but I know there was a bitter enmity existing against her by the two stepdaughters. "Yet she was always doing and thinking of something to give them pleasure. "Mrs. Borden wanted all her property to go to her two sisters, Mrs. Fish and Mrs. Whitehead. "I have always understood that she intended the half-interest in her father's own home to go to Mrs. Whitehead, and her money and personal property to be divided equally between them and their children. "Mrs. Borden did not want a single bit of her own property to be left to either of the girls, and the probability that they would receive any part of it was farthest from any thought of hers. "I understand that she always told Andrew that she wanted all she owned to be left to her two sisters. "They ought to get it, as Lizzie and Emma Borden are both well aware of her wishes in the matter."

I can post the Whitehead portion if you want it. She (Whitehead) mentions her relationship, or lack of it, with the Borden daughters.

[Kat]

Excellent Harry!
Thank you! Leave it to you to know what's in the newspaper!

I actually had that article printed out and in my hand in a file, several times over the last few days, but had not re-read it in months!
What a coincidence! Wow!

[Angel]

Maybe that was what was going on that day- Abby was to meet Andrew at the bank to help her make her own will out and have it witnesed. If Lizzie found out about it she would have been angry that Abby's wishes were being carried out to have anything she inherited from Andrew go to her relatives. It might have outraged Lizzie that anything of her father's go to someone she hated and to her relatives that she thought were beneath her.

[Tina-Kate]

Yay Harry!

That was the one I was referring to.

Unfortunately, I don't have internet at home anymore & my Borden stuff could fill 1/2 a room, so it's really difficult for me to find the references I so casually spout off while I'm here.

Thanks!

[Kat]

Try this link to a transcription of the inheritance laws in the Commonwealth at the time. It's very complicated and if one reads it, probably be prepared to read it twice.

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