1. "Elizabeth Engstroms "Lizzie Borden""
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Mar-24th-04 at 7:39 AM

I have just read Elizabeth Engstroms fiction book "Lizie Borden". This beeing the first fiction story that i have read about Lizzie (besides the radio program "Goodbye Lizzie Borden"] and i cant say that i am impressed.

Have anyone here read it? What did you think about the story?
Or have you read any other fiction story about Lizzie?

(Message last edited Mar-24th-04  7:42 AM.)

I've never seen Engstrom's book, Jimmy, and I can't say I've read any Lizzie fiction I have cared for.  It is nice to see you back in the forum, though!

--Lyddie

HI Jimmy!  I read Engstrom's book a long time ago, remembering it
was not too good.  Nice to see you back here!

Are there any more Lizzie as fiction books besides
this one & Evan Hunter? I haven't read many books on
the case at all. Thanks to limited book buying funds
and a small town library which only has 2 of her.
Those are/were Spiering & Hunter. I own those two plus
V. Lincoln's book. Which I don't like at all. Or maybe
I just don't like her.

There is a book by Marie Belloc Lowndes, from 1939 which I liked quite a bit for fiction.
She also wrote The Lodger, a story based on Jack The Ripper.  That was good too.
I've read all but the first 2 books listed here.
There is also a disc out with 4 Fictionalized Radio Plays.

from:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources/BibliographyCase.htm#booksfict
BOOK LENGTH STUDIES -- FICTION

Bierstadt, Edward Hale. Satan was a Man. NY: Doubleday, 1935.
Fictional account of an insane killer who imagines himself as various female murderers, including Lizzie Borden.

Dougall, Lily. The Summit House Mystery or the Earthly Purgatory. NY: Funk and Wagnalls, 1905.
One of the earliest known work of fiction inspired by the double murders in Fall River, with a lawyer resembling Andrew Jennings, a murder of a father and stepmother, and two maiden sisters. Says Flynn, "One of the sisters was tried for murder and found not guilty. The story concludes that the father was the guilty party and another man was killed in his stead."

Engstrom, Elizabeth. Lizzie Borden. NY: St. Martin's Press, 1991.

Haskell, Owen. Sherlock Holmes and the Fall River Tragedy. Lazarus Press, 1997.
A novel in which Holmes visits Fall River to investigate the Borden murders.

Hunter, Evan. Lizzie: A Novel About Lizzie Borden-Her Life, Her Times, Her Crimes, Her Passion. New York: Arbor House, 1984.

Lowndes, Marie Belloc. Lizzie Borden: A Study in Conjecture. New York: Longmans, Green & Co., Inc., 1939.
Lowndess theory is that Mrs. Borden discovered that Lizzie had a European lover, necessitating Lizzie committing the murder to quiet the possible scandal.

Satterthwait, Walter. Miss Lizzie. NY: St. Martin's Press, 1989.
Living in Massachusetts after WWI, Lizzie solves the murder of her young neighbor's stepmother.

Lizzie sure seems to get writers minds to thinking. You
don't see Jacqueline Onassis or Alice Roosevelt in fiction
(at all/very often?) and they were as famous as Lizzie.


This is funny:
"Lowndess theory is that Mrs. Borden discovered that Lizzie had a European lover, necessitating Lizzie committing the murder to quiet the possible scandal."

Like a murder scandal was better than a romantic scandal?

Actually, I think it was an American lover in Europe and he was not of her class?  So that when Lizzie returned, he was not suitable?  Stalker material?  Someone help me here?

Take a deep breath, or a good nap.
You seem to believe any speculation rather than the solution taken from contemporaries who passed on their testimony to Arnold R Brown.
Will that bring us closer to a solution?

I beg your pardon?
BTW:  This is a forerunner of "The Boyfriend Did It" theory which Ruby Cameron espoused in 1985.
There is nothing new under the sun.
And I slept very well, thanks anyway.  I was asking for help on a fictional work which you haven't read- not advice.
The book is not at my house- can you tell?

If I have misjudged you, please accept my apology.
A novel is an entertainment, not a serious work.

Has ANYONE ever come up with a newer or better solution than AR Brown?
...
I don't know the date of publication, but could Engstrom have derived her story from Ruby Cameron? THAT is one advantage of writing a novel; you are not bound by the literal truth, which may be stranger than fiction.

(Message last edited Mar-25th-04  5:00 PM.)

You're right, Kat.  Hiram Barrison, the suitor in Belloc Lowndes's book is from Boston.  He meets Lizzie in Paris when they are both travelling in Europe.  Lizzie falls in love.  She contacts him after they come back from the trip.  Hiram is not well-off -- he inherited some money from his mother -- but that is nearly gone -- so Lizzie knows he will never be "eligible" in Andrew's eyes.  The two have secret trysts after they come home from Europe -- meeting at night in the Borden barn.  Abby sees them there one night -- and threatens to tell Andrew -- so Lizzie kills both her and Andrew because she knows she cannot be with Hiram until they are out of the way. 

In this version, Lizzie has no accomplices. 

Whew!  Thanks!  it's been 3 years and Stef has it because I wished her to read it.
I suppose I shouldn't have started something I could not finish- which was to give a synopsis of the story.
Why Someone thinks I believe all this stuff, is beyond me.  I don't think I have ever given that impression.
PS:  Do you have a short comment on Engstom?  That has been a while too.

Sounds a hell of a lot more realistic than Brown.

I thought you'd never ask! I'm going to be lazy here and just copy and paste my forum post from last year about Engstrom's book:

Hopefully no one trying to learn about the case will use this book as a reference point.  I know it's fiction -- but I didn't recognize anyone in this novel at all.

Lizzie appears to suffer from some form of Multiple Personality Disorder, and Emma's a bit of a drinker. (Alice Russell, however, has a nice husband and they live in "a modest little house with a lovely garden".) Lizzie has a host of lesbian fantasies and a few same-sex encounters. Most of the book deals with these unrequited love affairs. The murders happen at the very end of the book but details regarding that day don't agree with any recorded testimony. 

For example, Lizzie breakfasts on three split biscuits ladled with hot gravy (that Abby baked fresh that morning in an effort to impress John Morse). And, when Lizzie comes down on Thursday, Abby is in the sitting room talking with a strange woman. After their conversation, Abby comes into the dining room to say to Lizzie: "There's a birthing and it could be trouble, I'll have to go."

Lawdy, Miz Scarlett!  Abby don't know nuthin' bout .....

THANKS! Prissy Wave. Caution- it's loud.

  Very funny Diana! I just may read that for laughs even though I rarely read fiction.

So Lizzie used to go to the barn to meet her lover. And we thought it was for sinkers.

Yeah!!  That's pretty much how I've always imagined Abby sounding too. (I'm referring to Kat's sound bite here BTW.)

But Harry, just so you get the right book -- it's Belloc Lowndes if you want to read about Lizzie in the barn with Hiram -- but it's Engstrom if you want to find out about Emma experiencing a downward alcoholic slide while Lizzie lusts after ladies in the WCTU. (Hmmm... I didn't see the irony first time round. -- sometimes these books DO require a second read.)

(Message last edited Mar-25th-04  8:00 PM.)

Lawzy, you girls are funny!   I can't believe Kat had the clip to audistrate the synopsis.  Thank you so much for saving me the trouble of tracking down the book.  It sounds dreadful. Belloc Lowndes I would like to find, though.  I like The Lodger very much.  I can't find a copy on line.  Maybe interlibrary loan.

Actually, I do kind of like Angela Carter's short piece: it is moody and really tries to project a state of mind that could lead up to the events.  (With fiction, Ray, you aren't aiming for literal truth, but artistic truth.)

--Lyddie

Angela Carter is A Gawdess in the "atmosphere" department!!!
Yay, Ms. Carter!

(Message last edited Mar-26th-04  7:43 PM.)

The Lowndes book about Lizzie can be found on bookfinder.com.  They have a couple of books for sale, but they are pricey.  This book shows up frequently on the eBay site for Lizzie Borden.  Keep your eyes peeled.

Harry,
"So Lizzie used to go to the barn to meet her lover."
Don't throw that one out with the bath water.

Gramma

Dianna,
"-- sometimes these books DO require a second read."

And a third and fourth and fifth,........... Among the grains of salt one must take them with may lie one or two grains of truth. The problem is knowing the difference.

Gramma

"Truth is stranger than fiction." Because fiction is based on what can be believed, while truth is. (I'll concede no one can either prove AR Brown right, or wrong. But isn't he the only writer to say this? The others were very sure of the guilty party.

This sounds like author Engstrom is writing for a clique of readers.
Does anyone know of her audience? Or other books?

And how do you define "artistic truth"?

Have you read Engstrom and Lowndes?  Or Satterthwait?  My gosh!  Don't read them twice- don't even read them at all!

(Lowndes and Carter are OK tho)

I just found this book @ my local library.  It's great for entertainment value...I'm about 1/3 thru it & have laughed out loud several times.  For instance, Engstrom is writing about Sarah Borden, saying she had violent rages & afterword she "...felt remorse..."  Unfortunate choice of words considering Sarah's maiden name!

The research is not good.  You have to forgive Engstrom somewhat, considering this book was written before 1992, & there wasn't the wealth of material out that we have now.  From errors like having Abby call Bridget "Maggie", it's clear Engstrom never even read the Trial.

The characters -- in some points, I find she hits dead on, but in others she's just downright wrong.

Not a good book for anyone wanting to know the facts; it's most certainly fiction.  However, for Bordenites it's a good chuckle & "spot the errors" exercise.  I can hardly put it down & can't wait to see where she messes up next.  It's a riot.

I thought that Engstrom's novel leaned on an earlier Robert (PSYCHO) Bloch short story, in which there was also a supernatural component to the murders.  I'm lucky enough to have finally obtained the Belloc-Lowndes, and I thought it was charming.

I enjoyed the Satterthwaite, except for his, IMO, idiotic and confusing use of actual names from the case for other fictional characters in his novel.

I adore Angela Carter's Lizzie pieces, meaning both versions of "The Fall River Axe Murders" and "Lizzie's Tiger."

Raymond - these are FICTIONAL treatments of the case.  We do not look to them for solutions.  Leave A.R. Brown out of it, please...though HIS theories do seem fictional to some of us.


(Message last edited Mar-30th-04  12:35 PM.)

Artistic truth: creating a world that is consistent and believable within its own parameters.  Therefore, if an aspect of a true case is changed or embellished upon, so long as those changes (and all other aspects of the work)are made clear to the reader and are never changed in midstream or made to contradict each, the work maintains its own kind of truth. An artistic truth.  So long as the work is not misrepresented as fact, it is perfectly good, sometimes great.

--Lyddie

To add my own thoughts to lydia's: when someone makes up dialogue, places it in quotation marks, and asserts that these words were, in fact, spoken by someone, it may be "artistic truth" only if the product is labeled fiction. In non-fiction, whether written by a "professional writer" or anyone else, if you catch my drift, dialogue presented in quotes should come from a cited source, either through the use of footnotes or in a comprehensive bibliography. Fake dialogue in a purportedly non-fiction historical piece is not any form of truth.

(Message last edited Mar-30th-04  7:25 PM.)

To add my experiences to lydie's, when I read a prominent biography of someone or a true crime case, since the author was not there, and is ethically trying to reproduce, for the reader, the style and content of conversations, they do so, giving a caveat and an express admission that they had to do so.
It may seem like changing history, but we have to depend on the author's discretion to make a reasonable attempt to recreate the dialogue.
This happens all the time and is accepted practice.
At this point, it is the readers responsibility to make a choice of what sounds or seemd believable.

Well, I finished the book & it's certainly the weirdest Borden piece I've ever read.

The story is impossibly convoluted.  The supernatural element comes from a book sent to Lizzie by a Brit named Beatrice.  They met in Europe & they become penpals.  Lizzie idolizes Beatrice so much it compounds her own insecurities.  The book (which is purposely mysterious) is sort of like a self-help book with exercises to be done in order in a kind of ritualistic manner.  Lizzie secrets herself in the barn loft to work with this book, hoping it will make her a better person.  All very confusing, but eventually, what seems to come out of this book is that a kind of doppelganger Lizzie is set loose...Lizzie's "other self", who can walk around downtown while Lizzie is @ home, etc.  The "other" Lizzie attempts to buy prussic acid while Lizzie is merely thinking about needing to clean her sealskin cape.

It gets worse.

Andrew is having an affair with a 40 yr old widow named Enid.  Eventually, Lizzie ALSO has an affair with Enid.

George Whitehead magically becomes "Sebastian Whitehead" who is so greedy for Andrew's money, he threatens to kill him.

Emma (who is pretty much psychotic thru the whole book & fantasizes of killing Andrew & Abby) goes on rum benders while living in a hotel in New Bedford under an assumed name.  Apparently she blacks out & has sado-masochistic encounters that send her home so beaten up, she's bedridden for weeks.  The family ignores these episodes, since the house is so peaceful while Emma's away(!!!)

Abby is murdered by the doppelganger while Lizzie pleasures herself in the barn loft.  Lizzie is indeed looking for sinkers when Andrew gets home & that pesky "other" kills him while she fantasizes about it happening.

Basically, the facts are gratuitously thrown out & replaced by a totally bizarre & confusing story.

I laughed thru the entire book, not only with the errors but so many ridiculous situations, dialogues, etc.

1 of my favorites (Andrew, while walking to work on Aug 4) --

"And then there was that blasted maid washing windows.  It seemed that was all she did this whole summer.  Someone was always having her wash some windows or other.  It was positively unnerving to be resting, or working quietly, then to turn around and see the maid staring in from outside with a washrag in her hand.  He wished she would quit it."

GAWD!

I can't get over that this book was actually published!  I'm glad I read it tho.  It was quite a laugh.

(Message last edited Mar-30th-04  11:24 PM.)

Thanks, TK, for the synopsis.  It sounds hilarious!   If I get time, I may try getting it on interlibrary loan. I don't think I want to waste the money on a copy.

--Lyddie

Yep, definitely a library loaner for entertainment purposes only

She even has Lizzie's birthday in JUNE.  Trying to make her a gemini, I suppose, to go with the duality thing?  I think the book's inspiration must have come from an wild way of trying to reconcile all the contradictions in Lizzie's Inquest testimony...how could she have been in 2 places @ once?

I'm guessing...but the only way I can explain this strange story!

So she manages to conjure up some sort of astral body, huh?  Like fun.
The twins?  Why, that's so deep.  We need a 13th sign for BS.

--Lyddie

Oh...yikes! That hurts just hearing about it! I can't
imagine why anyone would look at Emma & see her as a
floozy with a bullwhip. I'm 100% sure Lizzie went to clubs
trying to find guys to go home with -- but Emma?