As William said in his post, Morse according to the paper was searching for the murder weapon.

But surely he must have known the police did a fairly thorough search the day before turning over all the hay.

Morse spent most, if not all, of the afternoon of the murders out in the yard doing God knows what.  I can't believe he didn't either go in the barn to see what was happening or at least be aware of the search going on in the loft.

Even the act of burying the clothes on the Borden grounds is odd.  The clothes were in the cellar and could have been easily hid out of sight of anyone who had to use the privy or sink room.  Why the police left the bloody garments and hatches and axes there overnight is also baffling.

Well, they had no formal training to be police officers back then.  They weren't working under any real organization until later.  Communications were tough between one cop and another - not like nowadays when everyone knows immediately what's going on with everyone else - what the word from 'on high' is.  The guys were only human. 

Now that's just plain silly - Morse saying to bury the clothes because they bothered the family.  And the bodies laying in the dining room didn't?  Neither did sleeping in the house, or going in the cellar at night.  No - I don't think even Victoria Lincoln would be believed spinning that one.

I wonder if Morse knew whose shape it was in the hay, and he was looking around to make sure there wasn't evidence from the person still there - like something slipping out of the person's pocket or something ...  The same reason he was looking around in the yard. A note or a map of the house he had given a third party?

This would tie in with Mrs. Chagnon and her daughter hearing those funny noises about 11:00 Wednesday night.

Do you suppose Morse left the area with no one noticing?
He could climb the fence and wander and if anyone wanted to know, say he was looking for clues.
I had often wondered if the hatchet had been stuck into that pear tree after it's final use.  Stuck into the trunk way up amongst the leaves.  I thought maybe Morse could be sort of guarding it.

Actually, once the police had finished searching the barn it became the ideal place to hide the hatchet! 

I think Morse or the Butcher took the hatchet, there is an old
article in Yankee Magazine about a yard worker who took the hatchet
away.  If I were a computer genius like you people I would attach it.
But focusing on Morse is the way to go in my opinion.

I remember Emma complaining to the police about her cellar window being damaged and she made them make note of that.  I think that the police implied that people would naturally be drawn to the Borden premises and wreak some havoc due to the large reward.
Maybe the barn was not sacrosanct, either, from amature detectives.
I mean would you or I go there and hang out hoping to find some clew for the reward?

That makes me wonder if Emma was bothered by amateur sleuths at all?  People ringing the bell and wanting to come in or just trying to break in to look for clues or prove their points?  Nothing was ever written about it, but maybe Emma didn't want the publicity? 

There was more in the August 6th Evening Standard on Morse/Keefe:

"Towards the close of the afternoon [the 5th] Morse also grew irritable, and had quite an altercation with David P. Keefe, who hired a man to bury the blood-stained clothes and pieces of skull for him.  Keefe charged $5 for the work and Morse pronounced it robbery.  Keefe said that he wouldn't do the job for $100, though under some circumstances he allowed that he might be glad to do it for nothing.  Morse finally paid $3.  Later, he locked the barn when a couple of Boston newspaper men were inside, and found considerable fault with the liberties people took with the premises. He was reminded that a reward of $5000 had been offered, and that everybody was intensely interested." 

(Message last edited Oct-16th-03  7:56 AM.)

I'm still intrigued by the clothes-burying episodes. 

The Evening Standard says that on Friday, the 5th Morse approached Keefe who contracted the job out to his friend Niles.  Morse balks at the $5 fee and only pays $3.

The newspapers claim Dolan didn't want the items buried.  That he wants nothing on the premises disturbed.  But policeman Albert Chase contradicts this, saying it was Dolan (along with Hilliard) who ordered the bloody items buried on the 5th. Chase says he directed the operation -- but doesn't mention who did the actual digging.

[Something I hadn't really taken in the first time I read Chase's statement was that -- although the statement was dated Aug.5th -- it was obviously written much later.  This is clear because Chase says "About the middle of next week, Dr. Dolan ordered all the articles dug up."  I guess I just assumed the date on the witness statements was the date they were actually written.] 

Rebello (110,111) combines newspaper reports to indicate that the clothing, etc. was buried on the 5th, then dug up. [I can't figure out from these reports when it was dug up the first time.]  Then Dolan examined the dug-up clothing on Tuesday, the 9th.  It was re-buried -- and according to the August 12 edition of the Daily Globe it was dug up again on Thursday the 11.

So it looks like John's $3 was a waste of money if all this is true.  Also, I can't understand why, if the M.E. ordered the items buried, the household would have to pay the fee. Who paid to have it dug up and re-buried?

And I'm still fascinated by the fact that these items were buried.  Was this a custom? I know nothing about disposal methods in those days, but presumably there had to be some types of rubbish that couldn't be burned in the fire, used as rags, given to charity, etc. Why would the authorities return the clothing and re-bury it in the Borden yard? Surely that wasn't the best way to preserve it, if that was their intention.  And if they didn't want to preserve it -- wouldn't it make sense to dispose of it themselves? I don't get it.

 

Then or now, bystanders will seek souvenirs, or what is legally theft. You must of heard why they restrict access to disaster sites?
...
Could this have been a way to prevent these clothes from being stolen as souvenirs or trophies?

(Message last edited Oct-16th-03  6:29 PM.)

Evening Standard
Monday, August 8, 1892  Page 1

..."It is believed that Medical Examiner Dolan will spring a surprise.  He has been working harder than any man interested in the case, and he has had the least to say.  It is believed that he will introduce some very important evidence at the inquest.
It is probable that he will have the bloody clothes worn by the murdered people, which were buried in the yard of the Borden house, in the rear of the barn, dug up and produced in court.  These clothes were buried at the request of Mr. Morse, who still remains at the house. "
................

I recall a news article which I had posted (and which I cannot replicate for some reason) which described Hilliard gathering up piles of notes generated by his officers to present to Knowlton when he had their first meeting in Fall River, probably Monday.
It sounded like at least some of these notes were made specifically for Knowlton at Hilliard's orders.


(Message last edited Oct-16th-03  11:25 PM.)

That would have been interesting if they introduced the bloody clothing in court as evidence, but, other than to show the atrocity of the crime, what purpose would they serve?  I wish they had, or, at least saved the clothing, we'd possibly be able to see it at the FRHS today. 

So Dolan had the buried clothes dug up either Monday or Tuesday and examined them Tuesday.

Then they were re-buried (in a box this time). Then this box was dug up again on Thursday night (Fall River Daily Globe, Friday, August 12, 1892:7)and taken back to the Central Station.  Dolan made another examination and this time the clothing was returned to Marshal Hilliard. (Rebello,111) 

I'm sorry if I appear to be fixating on this.  I just don't get the rationale behind the 'burying'.  And especially the re-burying in the Borden yard. 

I don't understand the purpose of burying the clothes, then digging them up. Mixed messages?

One interesting thing is the reason the clothes were dug up for the second time and kept was because at the Oak Grove autopsy, Aug. 11th, Dr. Dolan found the wound to Abby's back and wanted her clothing to find the matching tear in her blouse.  At that point I think he realized he (and the other Doctors) missed that important wound!  Wouldn't they wonder what else they missed?
(This wasn't just Dolan- he had a slew of doctors at that first autopsy.  I don't understand how they all overlooked such a terrible wound.)

Too many cooks spoil the broth?

I have to wonder if that didn't have something to do with the protocol of the day?  I noticed in the autopsy photos, Andrew is shown laying there in all his gory, er, glory, whilst Abby always seems to be covered with a sheet.  Did they try to keep much of her body covered in front of all these male doctors during their autopsy and thus kept her back wound covered?

I would think while cleaning the blood off of Abby someone would have noticed the wound then, but, they didn't.  Wiped her up while averting their eyes?  It is odd. 

Thanks Kat.  That shows why they were dug up again on the 11th.  So perhaps these bloody clothes were returned to the Borden yard for burial after Dolan's examination on the 9th because the law determined they had to return any belongings to the victim's family until they became evidence? I can't think of any other reason for re-burying them on the Borden's property.

Wouldn't it be great to see some of Dolan's missing notes.  I wonder if he made any when he examined the clothing on the 9th.

It sounds like Morse had those items buried, maybe while the authorities' backs were turned, so to speak, and that Chase backtracked in his statement, which seems to have been written not on the day itself.  Chase does say under orders of Marshal and Medical Examiner.
Maybe Hilliard did give the OK?  I think Dolan had no idea what was going on.
Morse, of course, could be viewed as acting suspiciously by paying to have the blood-soaked items buried :  Maybe he was actually destroying or hiding evidence.

Wouldn't blood-soaked articles really smell in the hot house, even in the cellar? Other than that possiblity which might seem reasonable, yes the bodies were still in the dining room, and recall Emma wiped away the blood from the parlour door area without permission from the Medical Examiner.  Because of these two accounts of Morse & Emma hiding blood, it begins to sound like the family is closing ranks around Lizzie, who herself burns a dress.
Therefore, Morse, Emma and Lizzie all help compromise the case.

Everything I could find about the burying of the clothing, in all sources but not Rebello. [EDIT HERE- See Rebello reference now included]

Preliminary
Dolan
189
Q.  There was of course clothing which was found on the bodies of both Mr. and Mrs. Borden, that clothing has not been talked about at all; but I believe it was at one time put in the earth back of the barn?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  That is to say, the clothing was buried without any envelope or box the first time?
A.  I was not there, but I understand that to be so.
Q.  Then it was taken up, and examines and buried again?
A.  Yes Sir, put into a box.
Q.  When it was buried again, it was put into a wooden box?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  It was taken up two or three times?
A.  Twice I think.
Q.  What has become of that clothing?
A.  It is down stairs.
Q.  In the marshal’s office?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Is all the clothing that was found on the bodies of each there?
A.  Yes Sir.
............

Trial
Dr. Dolan
858+
Q.  Is that the handkerchief?  (Showing dark tattered handkerchief)
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Is that in the condition so far as the entirety of it is concerned, as it was then?
A.  Yes, sir, I think so.
Q.  Did you take charge of it then?
A.  No, sir, not at that particular time.
Q.  When did you take it, if you took it, that day?
A.  No, sir, I didn't take it that day.
Q.  Was anything done with it that day, if you know?
A.  Yes, sir, buried it with the rest of the clothing.
Q.  Is it now in your custody?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Oh, it was buried at the time?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  The clothing was afterwards dug up?
A.  Yes, sir, it was dug up with parts of the clothing.
Q.  Do you know what date?
A.  I can tell you by referring to the notes.
Q.  I don't care about it. Was it dug up within a week or ten days?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Were you present at the digging up?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Did you take the handkerchief?
A.  No, sir, they were re-buried after being dug up to get some things and finally taken and carried up to the Marshal's office.
Q.  You received it from the Marshal?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  You identify that, you say, as the handkerchief?
A.  Yes, sir.
...............
Evening Standard
Saturday, August 6, 1892  Page 2

"FALL RIVER’S TRAGEDY.

Many Startling Stories will Bear
Sifting Down.

Cruel and Unjust Rumors About
Morse and Miss Borden....

...Blood Stained Clothes Buried.

Yesterday afternoon, under the direction of Officer Chace, the blood-stained clothes, which the family were anxious to dispose of, together with portions of skull which had been cut from the head of Mrs. Borden, were buried near the house.  Just what Medical Examiner Dolan will say when he hears of this is not known.  Earlier in the day he had forbidden any such interment."
....
Evening Standard
Monday, August 8, 1892  Page 1

"STILL SEARCHING.

Police Resume Their Task in
Borden Mansion...

[Previously posted, added here for continuity-KK]

..."It is believed that Medical Examiner Dolan will spring a surprise.  He has been working harder than any man interested in the case, and he has had the least to say.  It is believed that he will introduce some very important evidence at the inquest.
It is probable that he will have the bloody clothes worn by the murdered people, which were buried in the yard of the Borden house, in the rear of the barn, dug up and produced in court.  These clothes were buried at the request of Mr. Morse, who still remains at the house."
..........

Rochester, N.Y. paper
"Tuesday, August,  9, 1892

LIZZIE BORDEN CASE

A Veil of Mystery Surrounding the Borden Tragedy -
The Clothing Re-Examined - Suspicion Still Attached
to Members of the Household - Open Charges That Morse
and One of the Daughters Incited the Double Murder

Fall River, Mass., Aug 8 - The clothes worn by the victims of the BORDEN murder, and which were buried in the yard, were dug up this afternoon and spread out on the grass, for the inspection of Medical Examiner DOLAN. He picked from several parts of the clothes a quantity of hair from Mrs. BORDEN'S head, while he placed in two lots, and took it with him to his carriage. He would say nothing as to the cause of resurrecting the clothing, but after making his examination he ordered it to be placed in a shoe case and buried."
.........

Evening Standard

Tuesday, August 9, 1892  Page 2

"DONE WITH THEORIES.

District Attorney Knowlton
Consults with Police....

..."In the afternoon [not that afternoon-KK] the clothing which Mr. and Mrs. Borden wore when they were butchered was taken out of the house and buried near the barn by men under the direction of Officer Chace.  Officers Devine, Linnehan, Hyde and Chace guarded the house all day.  At noon Mr. Morse left the house and walked down to Pleasant street.  He was shadowed by Officer Devine.
At 5 o'clock in the afternoon Mr. Morse came down town again and mailed a letter at the post office."... 

--Morse is involved with burying bloody evidence and later mails a letter!?
Chase & Morse are involved in this probably at the OK by Hilliard.  Maybe Dr. Dolan, being only a year at his post, was not yet deferred to by the authorities.
When Dolan told Phil Harrington to watch the milk, Fleet took him off that assignment and sent him elsewhere*.  Who would have rank in this situation?  Wouldn't it be the M.E.?

----------
*  "About this time someone said something about milk. I looked in the direction from which the voice came, and saw Dr. Dolan standing at the table. He called me and said, 'Phil, I want you to take care of this milk, the family has been sick, and I dont want you to leave it until I relieve you.'
   In a few minutes Mr. Fleet gave orders to several of the officers to cover the several roads leading out of town. Devine and Garvey he sent on Stafford Road, and I was ordered to cover Bay street. I told him about Dr. Dolan’s orders to me in regard to the milk. He replied 'yes, I heard him when he spoke to you, but I will take care of the milk, and you go down the lower road.' I spoke to him about the Ferry street depot, and he said 'that is covered.' "
--Witness Statements, 6, Harrington

--The clothing was buried on the 5th and dug up on the 8th, re-buried in a box, and dug up and kept on the day of the second autopsy, Aug. 11th.
Rebello, 111:
"That Mysterious Box / The Bloody Clothing Once More Dug Up in the Back Yard," Fall River Daily Globe, Friday, August 12, 1892: 7."

"The police patrol wagon rattled up to the Central Station last night and a police officer carried a big box into the cell room. Investigation showed that the clothing which had been buried in the back yard at the Borden house had for the second time been dug up and it is probable that this time the garments will be held by the police. In the station house, Dr. Dolan made another examination, no doubt, with the intention of finding the cut in the back of Mrs. Borden's dress which must necessarily have been made by the hatchet or axe which inflicted the wound discovered in yesterday morning's autopsy."

"Note: The victims' clothing was retrieved and returned to Marshal Hilliard."






(Message last edited Oct-19th-03  7:44 PM.)

You do know that some people are very annoyed by the smell of stale blood? Like dead bodies, it takes getting used to.

Nowadays, this would all be classified as a biohazard, and carefully collected to avoid contamination, or disease.

Yes I mentioned that blood would smell.  But- The bodies were still in the dining room not yet readied by the undertaker as of Friday night!  That would smell worse than the cloth items, I'd think.
That's why it seems odd to ditch the clothes but keep the bodies.  We have no idea if they were fully washed.  They were probably cleaned enough to find and catalogue the wounds, but the fact that the doctors missed Abby's back wound would imply they were not washed below the head until prepared by the undertaker.

To say the least the handling of the evidence was haphazard at best. There is also the incident of finding one of the hatchets in the cellar:

Here Fleet is testifying (pg 466, Trial):

"Q.  What was done with the two hatchets and the two axes that Mullally had?
A.  The two hatchets and axes was left there that day.  The largest hatchet with the rust stain on it and the red spot upon the handle that apparently had been washed or wiped, was placed behind some boxes in the cellar adjoining the wash cellar."

For the life of me I cannot figure out why they would hide the hatchet.    If they thought it important enough to hide why not just take it out of the house? The police station was within walking distance of the Borden home. Why leave it overnight?

Marvelous research job, Kat!  Thank you for that.  I'm beginning to see where some of my confusion comes from. 

I think the Rebello bit on page 111 saying that Dolan examined the dug-up clothing on Tuesday and the Rochester New York paper saying that they were dug up on Monday, and laid out on the grass while Dolan examined them is just the result of the usual dispcrepancies in the media. And, really, does it matter whether it was Monday or Tuesday? 

But if they were spread out on the grass and Dolan examined them there, that clears up for me why the clothes were re-buried in the Borden yard. I had thought they were taken away and examined somewhere else.  But it sounds now as though Dolan examined them on-site and just had them boxed for re-burial. I was having trouble with my assumption that they'd gone to the station and been brought back to the house.

There is still the matter of who directed the clothes be buried in the first place. I know the papers say it was Morse -- but if we just deal with primary sources -- Chase says it was done under the direction of Dolan and Hilliard (Witness Statements, 42) [although Dolan says he was not there when the clothes were buried the first time (Prelim, 189).]

To be honest, I don't think any of this is material to the case -- and certainly this isn't the first time I've wasted everyone's time chasing down discrepancies like this.

That Preliminary Hearing is such a fabulous lode of information, isn't it?  There's Dolan saying that Hilliard has "all the clothing that was found on the bodies of each".  I don't think so....



     

You know you've got a point.
What was that about the claw-head hatchet being on the kitchen table and Sawyer saw it and picked it up
Was it then retired back to the cellar?
There were the implements in the kitchemn about 3:30, yet put back into the cellar and retrieved Friday morning- why is that?

(Pardon the length, but it is info for those w/o the Preliminary Hearing.  This was not coved at Inquest or Trial)

Prelim
Sawyer
474+
Q.  Did you see the hatchet?
A.  I saw the hatchet, yes sir.
Q.  How many hatchets did you see?
A.  I suppose it was the hatchet, it was the one that was brought up and examined and criticised.
Q.  Was that brought up stairs?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  When was it brought up?
A.  I think the police officers went down stairs and were searching, and some of them brought up I think two axes that I know of and this hatchet, and I do not know but what there was another one, but I am not certain.
Q.  You do not recollect whether there was one or two hatchets?
A.  One or two.
Q.  Do you recollect whether one of the hatchets they brought up had a claw on it, or not?
A.  The one I saw here yesterday in Court looked very much like it.
Q.  Did you examine it yourself?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did that look like the hatchet you examined?
A.  I did not examine the one that was here. I should say it looked very much like it at the distance I saw it. I thought it looked a little smaller.
(Mr. Knowlton)  I agree that is the one.
Q.  Do you know who brought it up?
A.  I do not. The first I saw of it, His Honor the Mayor was looking at it.
Q.  Mayor Coughlin?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Anybodyelse?
A.  I did not see any one else at that time. I was going out in the entry, and letting people in and out that required it.
Q.  Where was this that he was examining the hatchet?
A.  He stood in the back entry door leading into the kitchen. He stood there.
Q.  Do you know what became of the hatchet after he examined it?
A.  I do not know whether he laid it on the kitchen table or not, but that is where I found it.
Q.  Did you see Dr. Dolan examine it at all?
A.  No Sir I did not. It was about the time they were making the autopsy, as I supposed, and he was not out there then.
Q.  That hatchet was left on the table there, was it?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  You found it there?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  How long should you think that hatchet remained on the kitchen table?
A.  I could not say that. I do not know how long it had been there when I picked it up. I saw it there with some cans of milk setting on the table.
Q.  Were the axes there too?
A.  I do not distinctly recollect about the axes at that time that they were on the table at all. I saw the axes.
Q.  Where did you see them?
A.  Somebody had them. One of them was pretty badly knicked up, kind of open between, gapes between the blade and handle, no edge to it apparently. That was the only one I thought would be liable to do the deed.
Q.  The one that was lying on the kitchen table?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  What did you do when you examined it?
A.  I looked it over pretty thoroughly, and I rubbed my finger on the side of it.
Q.  You was the man that did the scraping on that hatchet?
A.  I do not know as I scraped it any, I rubbed it, and got a dried yellow rust off.
Q.  Tell us just what you did.
A.  I took it up and looked at it, and turned it over and looked at it, and turned it over and looked at it.
Q.  Did you say you rubbed the blade of it?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  How did it appear when you rubbed it?
A.  A dry powder, I got off a yellowish powder, apparently rust; it looked to me like a dry rust.
Q.  Did you see any indications of blood on it anywhere?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Or hair?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Now cant you give us any idea of how long that hatchet stayed there?
A.  I could not, not definitely. I could answer for its being there when I picked it up; beyond that, I do not dare to say. I laid it back there again.
Q.  You do not know who took it away?
A.  No Sir, I do not.

YES!!! This is not material to the solution of the crime. And they knew less in those days, too. No fingerprints or ballistic evidence.
The bodies would have to be kept until the ME was finished.

A probable reason Abby's back/flap wound was not found during the first autopsy was that it was not a "first autopsy".  It was only a Partial Autopsy.  One of the few things they wanted to do in the Borden home that afternoon was to get the stomachs out and ship them to Harvard for testing of poison. 

Technically and, more appropriately, that examination of the bodies on August 4th was known as a Partial Autopsy.  But everyone kept calling it a First Autopsy, as though it were a complete exam and it sure wasn't. 

On the stand, one of the doctors talks about his failure to make the notation of "partial autopsy" on the autopsy report for August 4.  (I'm guessing the Preliminary Hearing, Dr. Dolan.)

That "Second Autopsy" at Oak Grove was really the "First Autopsy" or First Complete Autopsy.

I agree with you, Susan.  Too bad they didn't keep the clothing so we could see it today.  It probably went back to the 'girls' since it was property that belonged to the Bordens.  But it was really evidence, tho. 

Maybe this topic comes up in the "Hilliard Papers" that is forthcoming. 

Diana, I don't think your wanting to discuss this is tedious at all.  It's extremely interesting, and it is confusing. 

As far as it not being any help in solving the case, so what if it isn't?  It's part of the case, just as talking about the different people involved, or Lizzie going to the 1893 Columbian Exposition.  One can always turn the channel, or page as the case may be. 

The "Borden Mansion" the paper refers to is interesting.  Obviously that reporter hadn't ventured too far from his desk. 

I've been thinking that maybe part of the reasoning of the authorities to allow? the axes and hatchets to remain in the house overnight, and the clothing etc. to be buried on the property might be because they did have guards stationed all around the outside day & night, so their end result might have been to keep anything from being removed from the premises by anyone who was not authorized.  This *Guard* might have led to a false sense of security.  It may be all they thouight was needed at the time.
(Of couse besides keeping watch on the inmates)

(Message last edited Oct-21st-03  2:27 AM.)

But didn't Marshall Fleet take the box of hatchets back to headquarters the first day? Or is my unaided memory wrong?

The clothes of the victims could offer no clues, then. Maybe now?

Here ya go, Ray:
Witness Statements, pg. 35, partial--

"F. L. EDSON

Fall River Mass. Friday Aug. 5, 1892.
At 5.55 A. M. went from the Police Station to the residence of the late A. J. Borden, No 92 Second street. Arrived there about 6 A. M. entered house by the side door on North side of the house. Officer Harrington was on duty at the door. The door from the entry to kitchen was open. J. V. Morse was in front of the stove; we did not speak. I went down cellar from the entry, went into the wash room in the southmost corner of the cellar. On the floor were two axes and a single hatchet. On a bench or table were a number of wet towels. There was blood on the towels. I went up stairs with the axes and hatchet, met Harrington at the door. Harrington said “there was one more hatchet in the cellar.” I went down cellar again, Harrington with me. In the vegetable cellar, off wash room, Harrington handed me a hatchet from a shelf or scaffold. We then went up stairs, and out of the house. On the steps I saw John V. Morse coming from the back yard. I said “good morning”; he answered. I went from there directly to the Police Station; arriving there about 6.23 A. M. At the Police Station I examined the axes."....