1. "What if: the Bordens were poor?"
Posted by rays on May-28th-03 at 5:05 PM

One reason for this scandal was the wealth of the victims. It is not supposed to happen to an elderly couple like that.
What if this happened to Bertha Manchester's parents?
Would she have been indicted for their murders?
Would this have gotten the play the Borden Murders did?

Like: if Nicole's ex-husband had been a bus driver, what then?

Well, it does seem that Bertha Manchester's own murder got a lot of publicity, so maybe if she had been accused of killing her parents, that would have gotten publicity too.  The newspapers in Fall River had lots of stories about gory accidents, maimings and killings that didn't involve wealthy or prominent people.  Admittedly, those stories didn't have the "legs" the Borden story did, but then the Borden case IS uncommnly enigmatic.  Wouldn't you agree?
With regard to Nicole Simpson, if her ex-husband had been a bus driver, and if O. J. Simpson had killed her, the case would still have gotten a lot of publicity IMHO.

If it had been a bus driver killed her he would
still be in jail now. Right?

That's a good question, Ray.  I think the double parent murder + the 'locked door mystery' would still make it quite newsworthy then.  But the wealth factor makes it all the more interesting.  Her wealth bought her out of a guilty verdict, same as OJ, Claus vonBulow, the first Menenedez trial (they ran out of money when the second trial came up), William Kennedy Smith, etc., etc.  I wonder how Robert Blake will do.  I think people are really sick of the rich getting off by their expensive legal teams.  Perhaps they'll use the Blake case to set an example.  (I'm not saying he's guilty or not guilty.)

I do not think Nicole Simpson's death would have made the headlines it did if someone famous wasn't involved.  Maybe for a day, in that particular area. 

seems the Scott Peterson case is getting major news coverage
and they weren't rich and famous, or the Ramsey case and others.
The "mystery" is what draws people in I think, all on this forum
love a good mystery!

If the Bordens were poor, we probably wouldn't be here.

Emma & Lizzie would not have been raised with a housekeeper, & probably would have had to learn a trade to help contribute to the household.  Lizzie would have no reason to believe she deserved more than she had.  No acceptance into Central Congregational, no wealthy friends she felt she'd have to keep up with.  Certainly no trip to Europe @ 30!  One or both may have been married (no one would be considered "beneath them" if any of those stories are true).

Abby may not have married Andrew, nor anyone at all (I'm sure his $ was a factor).

Both of them probably would have died natural deaths.

Excellent question Rays and like wise a very well stated effect of this Tina-Kate.  If in fact the Borden's were of the poorer of society I doubt very much there would have been much beyond the arrest, trial, conviction and execution of the daughter who threw the axe.  But the Borden's were indeed NOT poor for had they been they would most likely have been Irish, Portuguese or Chinese maybe Catholic and their name would not even appear on a social register.

Rather they were part of the "elite" albeit that Andrew was tight fisted and they certainly did not live according to their means.  And because of this "wealth" they and most especially our beloved Lizzie, were undoubtedly shown the "priviledges" of Victorian society. 

As far as poor dear Bertha Manchester she and her father were farmers sod busters with caloused hands and cows to be milked.  These were not the duties of the social "elite" and therefore her murder drew little attention to history albeit that her murderer or the Portuguese man accused and tried for the crime did serve time in jail.  But recall that he was pardoned and exiled back to Portugal by Governer (??) not too long after his incarceration.  That always strikes me as being a bit odd.

That's my tail and I'm sticking to it!

BC

Very good question, Rays.  Hmmm, first off, I think the Manchester murder got much of the news it did because of the Borden murders, it made good copy, Lizzie locked up, yet someone else in Fall River was murdered with an axe.

If the Bordens were poor, I believe they would still be living in Andrew's father's house on Ferry Street, possibly would have it to themselves after Andrew's parents died and Lurana and Hiram moved out.  If Abby had married Andrew, she may have been the sole housekeeper for all.  Lizzie and Emma would have to do something to earn their keep, become seamstresses, or teachers, or housekeepers, or whatever other type of work was available to women at the time.  Then there was always the mills, lots of workers needed there.  If the elder Bordens were murdered under these sorts of circumstances it would probably make the news, but, front page day after day, no, I don't think so.  If a finger of guilt was pointed at Lizzie in this type of circumstance, she may have ended the rest of her days cooling her heels in prison.  She wouldn't have had access to the monies needed to procure her really good legal counsel.  And they didn't give women the death penalty at this point in time in Massachusetts.  I don't think that we would find it as fascinating as we do if that had been the case and the Bordens were poor.  There might not even be enough info on it around to study the case as we do, no books written about it, no trial transcripts, etc. 

I read books on all kinds of murders - maybe more than 200 of them.
There are many books and theories on the Jack the R. muders and that crime is Still making news.  Poor  broken women, yet.

The elements which coalease into a *classic* crime may be beyond me being able to describe.  But some people gravitate to axe murders, some to wife murders, some to serial killers.
As nj says we just love a mystery.  Unsolved crimes with unclaimed rewards seem to be extra-interesting.
The added dimension at the time, of the advent of the wire services and the yellow journalism, and the newspaper wars added to the legend of the Borden crime.  The times may have been right for this to balloon into a huge deal, rich or not.  The reporters and Porter and Pearson, I believe made this crime into legend status.

The Bertha Manchester murder is still interesting because of the reasons cited here on this topic.  One thing tho, Stef and I were trying to figure out.  Jose spent 20 years in prison, half his life...why then was he pardoned by Gov. Foss, and deported.  We wondered if that was the proceedure that was required before an alien could be deported?  We have not been able to figure this out.  Maybe the Azores would not take him unless he was pardoned.  Maybe they did not accept back felons.

(Message last edited May-29th-03  6:20 AM.)

Isn't it odd that Correiro got off so lightly? His crime (if he was indeed guilty) was as heinous as the Borden murders, but with only one victim, of course.  I have read that he came from a fairly prominent family in the Azores.  Do you suppose their influence extended to Massachusetts?  Or is it possible new evidence surfaced, indicating he wasn't the murderer after all?

Two people are murdered every day in Los Angeles. How many of them have you heard about? Or New York city?

Wrong! Did I mention the bus driver worked second shift and was picking up passengers mile away from 10pm to midnight?
You ASSUMED something!!!

You can read the chapter in Michael Moore's "Downsize This" for a high-level argument on OJ's innocence. I won't deprive you of this pleasure by telling.

If this has been going on since the 19th century, then it isn't going to stop now.
Ever hear of Harry Shaw? Shot a famous architect in public?

After explaining his solution to the Borden Murders, AR Brown also tells about the Bertha Manchester murder. They framed somebody for the murders to quiet the public (?).
Does this go on today? Read your newspapers. The only question is this: was it an "accident", or to provide proof that the murderer was still active?
Too bad AR Brown's 1100 page book was cut to 320 pages.

About 300+ pages seems like the right size for salability. Rebello might have been better off to limit the size of his work to this. Then a CD with the stuff taken from the public domain, etc. "Sell the copyrighted part, give away the gathered documents."
Isn't this done with the Trial Transcript?

I didn't read the book, but saw the movie on TV. The point was that the children also had a motive of inheritance. And that "Sonny" did dabble in drugs, like other rich wastrels.
This case was covered in Baden's book (?) of his cases.

But how many other murders were there in Fall River that year?
None among the upper classes, of course. Money can solve a lot of problems that overwhelm some of the poor.

AR Brown suggests he was railroaded as a cover-up; but for whose sake? Aside from youth (under 21), there is no reason for him not to hang for this murder. Read E Pearson's collection of crimes.

I really doubt that a "prominent family" would send their young son away to work as a manual laborer. Why not on one of their fishing boats? (I suspect there is more here than reported.)

Wasn't that Harry Thaw?  (He shot Stanford White over Evelyn Nesbit.)
Maybe it's just that I have a lisp...

Did Correiro's family own fishing boats?  I thought they were in the grocery business or some such thing.  Maybe it was a fish market?  Wayward young men do have a way of taking off on their own sometimes.

Yes. They made a movie about this in the 1950s. The young girl went on to fame, but I don't recall the names.

I suspect the poverty of the Azores led him to America, like countless others. Few of the rich nobles, unless as tourists. But I don't know any more than what AR Brown said in his book. Did any other author deal with him?

WOW!  I realize this is a topic you started Ray, but was this some kind of test?
I mean -*WRONG* -you say to Kimberly?
What did she get wrong?
Her reasoning sounded like if O.J. wasn't a football star, but rather a black bus driver, we wouldn't hear of that crime nor would it have made T.V., nor would he *walk*.  He would have been convicted.
Anyway, how can anybody be wrong if you're asking their opinion?
It may not match yours, and I can tell you are really into this, but  nobody's exactly *wrong*, wouldn't you agree?

I'm trying to remember where I saw it, if it was here or in a book, but, it was a list of people's names and what they were being jailed for with Lizzie's name on the list.  I'm trying to recall if there were any other murder suspects on that list or all just petty criminals?  Does anyone remember this list? 

From LABVM/L, Galleries, "LIzzie Artifacts"

That is exactly what I meant. We have had a very similar
murder here recently -- a man is accused of killing his
girlfriend and he is being held on $500,000 bond (he is
black, but not a rich pro-football player). He is said to have
stabbed her & slit her throat & then tossed her down the
steps into the yard.

Ha-ha-ha. That's what happens when you answer open-ended questions.
NOBODY asked anything of the circumstances, they just REACTED.
I hope you were as amused by this as I was. The point is that circumstances change things. Nobody asked if the ex-spouse had an alibi.
Is Robert Blake guilty? Nobody here was an eye-witness, but they do have opinions from the fragmentary facts in the news.

Anybody remember Sharon Tate? Was her husband the prime suspect? Who knows what will happen to Mr Peterson?

Thanks, Kat.  Its a little difficult to read.  I noticed something odd on there trying to read the crimes, down below "murder of father" for Lizzie, there is a Safe Keeping(?), 3 Drunkeness, 3 Dist. the Peace, and then the odd one.  It looks to me like it says Bridget, Ar---- - on wife?  Hunh? I realize its not our Bridget, but, was curious what the crime was for Edmund Rodgers. 

I'm sure your eyes are better than mine.  Being so much younger.  Really, when I posted that I was thinking, good luck trying to read it!


--Are you having a good time, Ray?
The jolly laughter sounds like it.  Good.