1. "Can you "relate" to Lizzie in any way?"
Posted by audrey on Feb-2nd-04 at 2:01 AM

While reading and day dreaming about Lizzie this evening-- I came to some startling conclusions.

I can relate to her in certain ways...  I can also understand her on many levels.

I think she never felt accepted and like she truly belonged even before the murders. I can relate to this easily.  When I arrived in America at 16-- I was younger than all the other students in my classes.  I was also French-- so everyone thought I had hairy arm pits and legs and seldom bathed. (They thought I spent my days smoking and sitting on a bidet drinking wine and eating cheese)

My mannerisms, social habits, diet, even my very social mores were totally different from anyone I knew.  I felt like I always had to try extra hard to be accepted and fit in.

When a woman feels like this it drives her to be a door mat type of person forever running errands for others, copying notes of lectures, being "nice" since this is what we are trained to be like.  A tough man is a go getter-a pistol.  A tough woman is a bitch.   It was a terrible thing for me, and I think for Lizzie.  Her church work-- seeming to be willing to do many different things. I do not think she was driven by charity, but by a desire to be accepted and thought of as nice. 

I think Lizzie felt the same way when it came to entertaining and making the splash in FR society she so desired. She wanted so badly to "fit in" where she thought she should and could not since Andrew had different ideas about $$. 

I also think she was lonely FAR before her ostracism by FR after her trial.  A lonely woman is a VERY tough life to live.  Did she yearn for love-- for tenderness-- to be made to feel like the most desirable woman in the world? 

Here she was, a 32 year old woman with the stigma of being a spinster.  Her aged father was nearing the end of his life (even if he had been let to finish it out naturally) and to shallow, socially conscious Lizzie- her stepmother must have been a total embarrassment. "Well nourished" and frumpy.  Not some charmingly hatted and gloved matron skilled at clever conversation and the cunning needed to secure her stepdaughters their rightful social places and proper marriages to well heeled young men.  She must have been desperate.  Especially if Andrew WAS going to make a will favoring Abby.  She would have been totally alone and relatively helpless by her standards.

I imagine she had a miserable, boring and tedious life. 

After her acquittal-- she had it even worse. I think when she "got what she thought she always wanted" she found out like a lot of us have--- that the old "be careful what you wish for" adage is true....

I sometimes wonder if she did not indeed revel in her ostracism.  She was accustomed to being miserable.  Maybe it became a way of life for her.  Her cross to bear.  Goes a long way in explaining why she remained in FR in my mind....

I can easily identify with her, too, for many of the same reasons.  It doesn't change the horror of what I think she did, but I can easily imagine the path her thoughts took to reach that dreadful destination. And I can imagine how she painted herself into a corner, where she believed she had only one choice.

--Lyddie

Very succinct, you two.
That does sound like a sad and lonely life- for you Audrey and for Lizbeth.

I don't know if you are interested in the sign of Cancer but I am a week off Lizzie's birthday and I know Cancers very well.
Brother, girlfrend, first boyfriend, all Cancers - the girlfriend born on July 19!

What they tend to do (Not me- used to be but no more) is try to please, feel underappreciated, are easily hurt and like to feel like a martyr.
In fact, that feeling of martyr-hood is very strong.  Also, they give a huge donation of loyalty, and if they don't get that in return they are crushed!  They do forgive but will never forget.

They don't often see the world as it really is, until well into middle age.
"Poor-me" is an often condition.

My husband is July 16, and really doesn't fit.  But actually, I have trouble breaking people into 12 types:  I've known sooooooooo many more than that.

But I do agree with a lot of what you say about Lizzie's insecurity.  I also think she lived between worlds:  not really fitting into any--servant, schoolmarm, married lady, dull spinster, society gal.  I think there is a whole side to her (besides homicidal) that very few ever saw.  I can't remember who is quoted as describing a wonderful, contagious, bubbling laughter (NOT on the stairs), which was shared with those she trusted and cared for.  I find her tragic for the lovely person she might have been, had she not been such a bent twig growing up.

--Lyddie

And what was worse of all for her... She knew it.  She did not see that other people had insecurities, doubts and the same problems she did.  She felt she was the only one-- that everyone else was one up on her...

That was a good post Audrey very senstive and insightful.
Rings true and we need to do more of that, learn how Lizzie
might have really felt. After all, she was 32, a grown woman and
must have festered lots of stuff.  I can relate to Lizzie if she
she is 18 or so, the rebellion against the folks and all that.  But
at her age 32 I had been away from home and family and I then learned to treasure my folks. 
If we put ourselves really in her spot, it is quite pathetic and I try
to think what I would do if I had to live with my folks to that age.
Horrible!  The years that we are in our 20's are the best, we are
looking good and all is prime for setting up the rest of our lives.
Not so for Lizzie, she missed it. 

Kat, you'll have to fill me in, because....Ta Dah, my new beaux is a Cancer.  He definitely tries to please, and succeeds, but, so far I haven't seen any martyr complex.


I also can relate to Lizzie on some levels.  Most have to do with being a woman and what society expects of us as such.  Though we are no longer bound by the rules that were around in Lizzie's day, they are still very much alive, such as what is considered ladylike behaviour.  Its interesting to see that as far as we have come, the Victorian ideal of supermom is still with us; cook, nursemaid, doctor, wife, mother, seamstress, housekeeper, etc. all while holding down a 9 to 5 job.


It made me think about Lizzie and all her girlfriends, they were all working girls; schoolteachers.  I guess technically they were beneath her from society's standpoint as she was a rich girl.  Did Lizzie's girlfriends envy her position in life or pity her?  Her money wasn't her own, she had to answer to her father for it, did Lizzie possibly envy her friends?  Society had neatly trussed Lizzie up, she was pretty much stuck where she was, reliant on Andrew's money.  Do you think she ever wanted to break free?    

We may be "coming out of the kitchen" but it is just to prove we can also change the oil in the car before returning to baste whatever it is we had in there to begin with.....

I don't see 12 types, so I'm glad that you don't either, and admit it.
I study people , finally ask their sign, and the see what is consistent amongst signs.  It's always an ongoing experiment.

The martyr thing might be in his past Susan, but you can bet he thinks he was mistreated or misunderstood about something of which he will not let go.
Say he spends money on his friends because he loves a good time, but they never spend on him?  Eventually, even by doing what he loves, he may begin to resent that.
That's an example.
He will come to terms with it, eventually.
That's what I mean about lessons learned from the world by middle age.

I see, thanks.  Well, I guess I will have to be on my toes and try not to let something like that happen.  He does like to spend his money on me, but, I will jump in and pay for stuff before he can so that its more of an even balance, he seems surprised and amused by it and secretly I think he really enjoys it that being the guy he doesn't have to pay for all our dates.


I wonder if this pertains at all to our Lizzie?  Do you think that these sorts of issues ever came up with her friends, her footing the bill because she had more money and then grew to resent it over time?

Do you think that it may have been the cause of the rift between Emmer and Lizzie?  If Lizzie killed her parents she may have viewed it as the ultimate sacrifice for her and Emma and played the martyr card to the hilt and perhaps Emma wouldn't play along? 

E Radin interviewed a few who knew Lizzie directly, or from their parents. He quoted them in his book (no outtakes listed).

Lizzie seemed to be part of the upper class world, but was at a disadvantage (as I remember it). She did mix with the crowd.
One comment was that Lizzie was an avid sports fisher; some might like this. She allowed the boys from the parochial school to gather fallen pears from the back yard. Radin makes this believable.

I happened to talk to my brother (Cancer) and heard about my friend (Cancer) and it seems she is playing the Princess of Maplecroft this week and everything is 'me', 'me', 'me'.
The understanding of this individual tho, is that she will regret her behavior but never own it, will not say she was wrong- but, inside her own head- she will resolve to do better next time, shape-up, so to speak.  (Without admitting it you see).

Yes, I think disadvantage is a good term for it.  Socially Lizzie should have been mixing with the wealthy daughters on the hill, she was technically part of that society, but, was not physically part of their league.  Outside of Mrs. Holmes, I think all of Lizzie's single girlfriends were working girls.  But, she wasn't of that social set either, perhaps they were more accepting of her? 

Yes, Lizzie's background was lower middle-class (her Grandpa was a street peddler, but her Dad did really well). Its only the upper middle class that has the pretensions and prejudice to look down on the others. (The really rich know how to keep this hid.)

Notice how a lowly broker seems to be setting up as the fall-guy for relaying info to Martha (you know who)? Is this unknown?

Relate? S**t-I've had a crush on her for years!

What is interesting about this-- is the comparison of him being the $30,000 a year man versus the Billionaire woman....

Comes down to money a lot of the time!

She and her family had made it to the hill economically, and they did have a tenuous link to the Bordens (and Abby's baffling middle name which attempted to provide  a link to the Durfees), but it doesn't seem she really moved among them except when willing to do some grunt work for their charities.  I wonder about the schoolmarms, too.  Did they consider Lizzie a status symbol.  I think she might have been happiest if alowed to move among the serving class (as she did quite freely once she became Lizbeth: the chauffeur and all those pampered maids), where she could be admired and grand at last.  And then there is Miss Russell--a real barrel of laughs there: much older than she and NOT young for her age. I imagine her as a dreary bookend to Emma. No wonder she went in for the theatrical crowd later on.  They not only accept and embrace notoriety; they exult in it.  Sadly enough, they also move on to the next sensation shortly after.

--Lyddie

From everything I have read, Alice Russel was well thought of-- but poor.  I think Lizzie liked her because she validated everything Lizzie.  Hanging on her every word, poor baby-ing her when she wanted it and saying the things Lizzie wanted to hear.

Once wealthy and in Maplecroft-- I think Lizzie enjoyed being "philanthropic" and admired by others less fortunate then she was financially.

I think Lizzie would have been happiest if she had been raised in a home on the hill-- made a good marriage and had a family.  Prior to the murders and trial she did what was "expected" of her.  Church work, mission work, etc.  I do not think she gained any true satisfaction from this, but rather the satisfaction of knowing she was well regarded for it.  Looking at it in this sense-- it was probably the best paying Borden investment ever.  Lizzie's "reputation" was her ace in the hole as fas as her defense and even if she was shunned afterwards, this is what kept her from being shunned and abandoned during her trial.  It was almost like "we did what we needed to do for you-- now we are finished."  She "spent" her investment all up and never got any more return for it once she was set free.  Personally, I do not think there was much she could have done after her trial to remain in good grace with the community.  Granted-- what she did do was probably the worst thing she could have--- But I wonder.. How many of US would have done it differently in her shoes?  I think most people would buy the nice house and have the nice stuff. 

Also-- We all know people who "wear out their welcome"  amongst certain groups... What they usually do is find another group-- and it is usually one with less standards than the first one--- and on down the line-- Until they deplete their supply of friends and groups to hang out with.

But she DID start out trying to please: she went to church, where she was shunned by all the parishioners she thought were on her side.  After that, I think she was  received by people like the preacher's daughter, who may have been told to do it.  I don't think Alice did after testifying against her.  And, ironically, I'm not so sure the bedford cord was pivotal.  I don't know why, but somehow I dislike Alice.  Maybe it's the mincing smirk on her face in the court sketch. (An unfair prjudice, I'll admit.)

(Message last edited Feb-4th-04  5:33 PM.)

Really?  I've always kind of admired Alice Russell, she was stuck in a lose/lose situation and made the best of it.  She kept that information under her hat about the dress burning as long as she could, it apparently gave her many sleepless nights.  Then she finally stepped up to the plate, possibly knowing Lizzie and Emma would shun her and she would be labeled "Lizzie's Turncoat Friend".  I think that takes alot of guts to stand by your morals like that knowing that there will be repercussions.

But, otherwise I find Alice maddening for all the questions she answered with "I don't know."  She may have held other pieces to the puzzle that she couldn't or wouldn't remember. 

It is interesting how many people could not remember what sound like simple things one would remember easily....

It is not like "where were you on the night of...."

I would think if I was over at a friend's house-- and her parents had just been murdered there-- I would be hyper-aware of each and every thing going on...  (If not for any other reason---for my own safety--either way-- If I thought Lizzie was guilty or not!)

Susan, I have to agree with you that Alice seems to have done a lot of soul searching, then to have gone on to do the difficult thing.  It's not a rational dislike; I just can't imagine being chums with her.

--Lyddie

Yes, Audrey,I find it interesting that all missed out on certain key points.  Like what Lizzie was wearing that day.  It was stated that people were not looking for fashions at the moment and I can understand that.  But, I would think the women could give a pretty good description of the dress as it was a common knowledge thing for them.

Like if I just saw a hit and run accident, I couldn't tell you the make of the car, its not my common knowledge.  But, I could tell you the color, the shape or type of car it was, maybe draw a sketch of it, etc.  Someone with knowledge of cars might be able to tell you the make of the car, even if they only saw it for a few seconds. 


Lyddie, I see what you mean about Alice for friendship material.  We had discussed briefly in the past as to what we would have done if in Alice's shoes, it was quite interesting to see.  Since you weren't around for that, what would you have done in Alice's position if you knew that you were witholding information about Lizzie who was wanted for murder?  Actually this should be up for grabs with anyone who wasn't around for that discussion, it does really put you on the spot.   

deleted due to double posting




(Message last edited Feb-5th-04  12:25 PM.)

Interesting.....

To be quite honest, it depends on the friend.  I have one very dear friend who if she called me in the middle of the night and told me she had just killed someone I would load my shovel up in the car and head over there.....


A good friend bails you out of jail... You best friend is sitting there beside you!

Yes that's a good point about the dress.
Fall River was the textile capital of the world for a period, and right around the time frame we are studying, Calico cloth was the specialty!
Fall River had textiles in their blood, if not in their lungs, and the women should have known their cloth.
With that understanding, it seems strange that no accurate description, nor a concensus, of the clothes of Lizzie was ever forthcoming.

What about the stress involved in this instance? Clothes are not a high priority under the circumstances.

I can relate to the 32 year old spinster part, you know,
being a 31 1/2 year old spinster myself. It took a long time
before I got over the "poor me" way of thinking. I don't know
how I'd feel if I was a Victorian 30-something & unmarried, it
seems like they were taken out of the race early, no longer
thought of as being worth having. I think Lizzie got to do a
lot of living though -- she was the daughter of a rich man &
she didn't seem like a bored little homebody at all.

Oh yeah, I relate as well. I don't really know a whole lot about Lizzie at the moment but I have started reading about her after seeing a short spot about her on the tube. Her pretty face caught my attention and then listening about her life felt like "I know some of what she felt." Mabey everyone does every now and then. I can say that I am more interested right now about her life up until the murders. Gulity or not, Lizzie was a human being who loved, laughed, cried, and felt emotions we all do. To quote a line from a Smiths song "I am human and I need to be loved, just like everyone else does." I feel this way probably too much! I would think Lizzie felt this at times.

Good question, Susan. I generally think of myself as a law biding citizen, but if I could do one of two things: 1)justify the act by a knowledge of excess cruelty on the part of the victim; or 2) tell myself that the information I had was not necessarily decisive but could send an innocent friend to the gallows--i.e. if I could bury myself in a deep enough burrow of denial or justification, then, yes, I can imagine keeping my mouth shut.

There's a famous story (also adapted into a one act play) by Susan Glaspell:  published as "Trifles" and also as "A Jury of Her Peers," in which some housewives solve and suppress the solution to a case based on an embroidery knot.  Their sympathy with the woman in question causes them to "forget" their specialized knowledge.

Maybe that's why Alice and Mrs. Churchill and Bridget and the rest had such poor memories. Perhaps they pitied Lizzie and knew the men could be counted on to get all their millinery terms in a knot!

(Message last edited Feb-8th-04  10:49 PM.)

For me the question isn't so much "Can I relate to Lizzie?" because I am not sure I can. She was a woman who lived at the turn of the 19th-20th century, accused of a horrorific crime, tried and aquitted, and yet thought of as guilty. I am a man living at the turn of the 20th-21st century, and the most trouble I've been with the law was a "fix-it" ticket for having tinting on the front side windows of my car. For me the question is: Would I be drawn to her or repelled by her (forgetting for a moment her alleged criminal act). By reading about her in books, articles on the Web site, and postings in this forum, I think that she would not be someone I would pick as a friend. She seems like a "me" person, unable to get along with nearly everybody, and having a few other antisocial traits.