The Lizzie Borden Society archive

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1. "The Borden sisters"
Posted by adminlizzieborden on Jan-8th-02 at 9:49 PM

By tina on Sunday, 11/18/2001 - 03:39 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Lizzie was eventually out cast in society. But Emma chose to outcast herself in a way. Did the townspeople finally start to think of Lizzie as guilty, even the ones who once supported her through the trial? And why? Because they never investigated anyone else as a possible murder suspect? And why did Emma totally keep to herself? Did she have anything to hide? I find it sort of odd the way they acted towards Lizzie, yet Emma was never seen in the same light. Did she not support Lizzie even after the trial?
Tina

 
By Dave Rehak on Sunday, 11/18/2001 - 10:00 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Tina, the shift in opinion after the trial cant be over-estimated enough. Many of the newspapers who were sympathetic towards her earlier on and critical of the police suddenly started to get a bad taste in their mouths.

After the verdict, the Providence Journal of June 23, 1893 said: "No more brutal murders were ever committed, and that the murderer should escape is revolting to the public sense of justice. Now that Miss Borden is free she should lose no time and spare no effort in trying to secure the detection of the real criminal. She owes this much to the memory of her dead father and stepmother, and to her own reputation. . . . . There has been throughout the trial a disposition in many quarters to criticise with undo severity the conduct of the District Attorney and his associates. But surely no fair-minded person, bearing in mind Miss Borden's own statements can deny that there was ample reason for the arrest and prosecution. Nor is it just to say that their theory as to Miss Borden's guilt made them indisposed to follow up other possible subjects of suspicion. On the contrary, the most unpromising clues were diligently followed. That Mr. Knowlton himself believed firmly in the strength of his case, that he reached the conclusions he set forth so eloquently with deep reluctance and with a full sense of his responsibility, there is no reason to doubt. His closing argument was a masterly presentation of that side of the case, and we regret to say that it has carried conviction to many minds, in spite of the verdict. Such an outcome is inevitable in a case so strange, so unparalleled as this. No one has any desire to see Miss Borden proved guilty; every one instinctively shrinks from a conclusion so horrible. But there is no use in shutting our eyes to the act that she leaves the courtroom at New Bedford still under a grave cloud of suspicion. . . . The inaccuracies and inconsistencies of Miss Bordon's testimony at the preliminary hearing [inquest] stand in imminent need of explanation, and Miss Borden owes it to her friends, no less than to herself, to endeavor to explain them. The story about the note which Mrs. Borden received from "a sick friend," who has been strangely silent during all these proceedings, the visit to the barn, the allusions to Mrs. Borden after the murder had been discovered, the burning of the dress, the conversation with Miss Russell--upon all these points some clearer light should be thrown. There is no reason now for Miss Borden's silence; let her speak. And let her also, as we have said, spare no effort to bring this horrible case to a more satisfactory conclusion than it has now reached after months of investigation by the Government and floods of eloquence from the defence, with so much evidence barred out by the Court and the presumption of innocence most strenuously insisted upon by the learned judge [Dewey] who delivered the charge."


As Victoria Lincoln and others would have told u, this was the sentiment that just grew and grew after the acquittal, and soon people were no longer associating with Lizzie, even ignoring her on the street (her old friends from the WCTU). But some of her old friends and friends from trial, like Mary Livermore, remained close friends. But just as many people believed she did it as believe that OJ did it and this belief continues to this day if polls are anything to go by.

 
By Kat Koorey on Sunday, 11/18/2001 - 10:20 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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You've got a point about Emma. She profited by the murders & moved to the Hill just as Lizzie did.
Emma's "personology profile" says she is so loyal to a person or cause, that it's almost unrealistic. I assume her loyalty found her in good stead in the community even though she had not built up the charitable-works "goodwill" that Lizzie had, before the crimes. It was probably expected that Emma stay by Lizzie's side and keep her in line. At the time of the crimes she was out of town, her alibi verified, so SHE was obviously innocent to the townfolk.
But you're right about the differences in the way each seemed to be perceived--as Emma seems to have initiated the bitterness & strife in that household originally, and was the one to "infect" Lizzie--and this was supposedly common knowledge!
I guess it's a sort of double standard-plus Emma NEVER GOT CAUGHT!

 
By bobgutowski on Monday, 11/19/2001 - 02:21 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I believe Emma lied at the trial, that her insistence that it was she who prompted Lizzie to burn that "old thing" was calculated to offset the importance of Alice Russell's damaging testimony (as you know, I work at a public defender office, and I get to hear the attorneys formulating defense with the clients every day - "Isn't it possible that she HANDED you the bag...?"). But did Emma ever let herself believe that Lizzie was guilty of more than bad judgement? This is, to me, one of the most haunting aspects of the case.

 
By dave on Monday, 11/19/2001 - 04:58 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Great observation, Bob. Yr initial remark is right on the money. "I told her to burn the dress so its my fault," Emma implies, to protect baby Lizzie. Taking the fall for Lizzie, since theres no consequence, since Emma isnt on trial, Lizzie is.

Poor Ray, he's still beating on the old "Billy" drum even after I told him the truth. Some myths die hard I guess. Fact is, the city directories, etc show that there was no William S. Borden living in Fall River at the time(s) that Brown states in his book. And the other things that discount Brown's book I already posted on more eloquently than i could now. I like new and old theories alike, but not ones that have been virtually discounted.

I'm of the opinion that if Lizzie is guilty, she and Emma planned it and Emma used her alibi to be as far away as possible at the time. If Lizzie's innocent, then in all likelihood she knows more (probably much more) than she let on.

 
By kat on Monday, 11/19/2001 - 10:24 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Why wouldn't Lizzie MAKE SURE she was down street at the soda fountain having a sarsparilla at 11 a.m.?
And have arisen a little earlier and taken a walk around 9 ?

 
By stefani on Tuesday, 11/20/2001 - 04:13 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Because she was not afraid of being found guilty. She could have been, right? So if she wasn't afraid of being found guilty, then she might not have been after the money after all. That was her reward for doing the deed. But in her mind the deed had to be done (that is if you think she did it in the first place!).

 
By kashesan on Tuesday, 11/20/2001 - 10:42 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Because she DESPISED sarsparilla Kat. It was dead common! (But I often thought that too-why didn't she just get the hell out of the house after doing Abby??-unless she really was waiting for Andrew, but why?)

 
By bobgutowski on Tuesday, 11/20/2001 - 12:59 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Lincoln (and this is one of her suppositions I still believe might be on the nose) thinks that Lizzie was dressed to go out when Andrew came home early. Maybe her change of dress, if she WAS now dressed in the blue bengaline, was simply from a housedress to a dress suitable for the street.

But, Lizzie, now there's someone banging at the front door. Almost makes you want to laugh hysterically, doesn't it?

 
By kat on Tuesday, 11/20/2001 - 10:29 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Oh, that's interesting, Bob. You mean
she's now COMMITTED to killing Andrew whether she had vascillated about it prior?
But she still had ALL THAT TIME to leave...(?)

 
By kat on Saturday, 11/24/2001 - 01:57 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Thread-The Borden Sister's:
Here's a question for you--
If You Were Emma, Would You Have Stuck By Lizzie?

 
By kashesan on Monday, 11/26/2001 - 10:08 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Shoot-if I were Emma I would have taken my money and gone shoppin-in Paris. Kidding; I can't help but beleive that the murders are the reason Emma eventually left. I'm sure Lizzie's philandering with Nance didn't help, but I have a gut feeling that Emma realized Lizzie's guilt and could not keep up the facade.

 
By raystephanson on Monday, 11/26/2001 - 05:53 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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AR Brown's book shows their last home. It says they put steel bars around all the bottom windows; the books says why.
Note that Andy also kept the house secured; what was he afraid of? And who?

 
By raystephanson on Monday, 11/26/2001 - 05:55 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I'm sorry, Dave, but I can't do that!
Believe your assertions about Wm S Borden in AR Brown's book. As I remember it, the book says WSB lived in a farm near Taunton.
What pages are you referencing?

 
By dave on Monday, 11/26/2001 - 07:34 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Ray, heres the thing. Theres just no proof that Henry Hawthorne worked for a William Borden in East taunton and heard him talking to his hatchet and confessing to the Borden murders. We could go on and on about this. I cant tell u certain things here but you will know in time. Theres no proof that Hawthorne worked for "Billy".

 
By augusta on Monday, 11/26/2001 - 10:50 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I don't think Lizzie really was going to go out later that afternoon. I think she mentioned she might go out to Bridget after bringing up the Sargent sale, to make it look like that's really why she was asking Bridget about going out, "Be sure and lock the door, as I might go out too." I don't think she had any intention of going out.

According to Bridget, Lizzie never told her of any sales before. Emma sometimes did, but Lizzie didn't, except for that one day. I think that tells us something. It sounds like a clear attempt to get Bridget out of the house. But did Lizzie really expect Bridget to run right into town right then? Of course her nap took care of that problem.

 
By kat on Monday, 11/26/2001 - 11:28 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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It seems Thursday was Bridget's 1/2 day off and she probably would have gone out anyway. But not until after the mid-day meal, right? So if Lizzie can't wait that long, for Abby's body to be found...Then Andrew has to also be "done in" BEFORE MORSE RETURNS, no matter what, which implies knowledge of Morse's return time, though Lizzie says she never saw (or spoke to?) Morse till AFTER the tragedy.

 
By raystephanson on Wednesday, 11/28/2001 - 04:51 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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If anyone reads AR Brown's book, and takes notes, you will find that Henry Hawthorne's parents worked for WmS Borden.