The Lizzie Borden Society archive

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1. "A Feeble-Minded Girl Not Taken Seriously"
Posted by dave rehak on Jan-5th-02 at 2:14 PM

(Message last edited Jan-5th-02  3:23 PM.)

Does anyone know about Carrie M. Poole? She's mentioned in Len Rebello's book, among elsewhere. She was a retarded cripple (sorry, feeble-minded invalid) who supposedly heard Lizzie say "I do not know that either Emma or I will get anything in the event of my father's death"--an interesting thing for Lizzie to have said in late July, only about a week or two before the murders, before she cut her trip short and returned home, while Emma went on to visit the Brownells. Miss Carrie was sister to Lizzie's old school friend, Augusta Tripp, and at the Inquest Mrs. Tripp, loyal to Lizzie, tried to downplay what Carrie heard Lizzie say by saying "she [my sister] is very feeble indeed" etc. In other words, Tripp was suggesting: "dont take anything my sister said seriously, she's just a retard." But thats not good enough. We know about the problems in that household; it seems likely that Lizzie DID say that she doesnt know if she would get anything if her father died. Carrie may have been "feeble", but she wasnt deaf, she did have ears to hear with and it seems likely that she did hear Lizzie say that. This just adds to Lizzie's motive to kill for the inheritance lest Abby should get it.

(Message last edited Jan-5th-02  10:57 PM.)

I was not under any impression that Lizzie "cut her trip short."

Also, Mrs. Augusta Tripp's testimony at inquest, pg.144:

Q: Did Lizzie say to you she did not know that either Emma or she would get anything in the event of her father's death?
A: I did not hear her say so
Q: Who told you she said so?
A: I think my invalid sister told me so
Q: What is her name?
A: Miss Carrie M. Poole, she is very feeble, she lives on Madison street New Bedford, she is very feeble indeed.
Q: You have never heard Lizzie say that?
A: No Sir, I never heard Lizzie say that
....It was a long time ago...

This is 3rd hand information here.

The reference to Carrie Poole is on page 62, in Rebello:
"Lizzie remained in New Bedford and stayed with Mrs. Poole and her daughter...On Tuesday, July 26, Lizzie, Mrs. Poole and HER DAUGHTER went to Westport, Mass...."

--so where does it say she is an invalid and "feeble-minded"?

Hoffman, Yesterday In Old Fall River:
"...The New Bedford City Directory listed the occupation of Carrie Poole as "clerk".
The name 'Miss Carrie Poole' was also on a LIST of possible witnesses for the prosecution, and the word "mad" was penciled in on the back of the page containing the NAMES.  Also on the roll was the inscription 'Michael (?),' a possible reference to Michael Graham, also know as 'Mike the Soldier'....Neither Poole nor Graham were called to the stand as witnesses at the Borden trial."

--In reply to your post, the inferences drawn are a little far-fetched for me...though it was interesting looking it all up.

Everything I said was correct.

Lizzie did cut her trip short and came home earlier than expected, spending only a day at Marion, while Emma prolonged her visit by going to Fairhaven. Lizzie then changed her mind on Wednesday and decided that she would go meet up with the girls in Marion again on Monday, August 8. This is according to Russell's testimony.

(Message last edited Jan-6th-02  12:21 AM.)

(Message last edited Jan-6th-02  12:20 AM.)

According to Rebello and the Inquest testimony of Augusta Tripp, Carrie Poole was "feeble and an invalid."

As for the speculation part, its not that far-fetched. Makes sense actually.

(Message last edited Jan-6th-02  3:06 AM.)

(Message last edited Jan-6th-02  2:44 AM.)

(Message last edited Jan-6th-02  2:43 AM.)

(Message last edited Jan-6th-02  2:07 AM.)

I'm confused.

Lizzie and Emma left Fall River together to travel to New Bedford on Thursday, July 21st.  (Rebello, 62). Lizzie stayed there with the Poole's and Emma went on to Fairhaven.  On Tuesday, the 26th she and her hostess and THE DAUGHTER went to Westport to visit Augusta Tripp, returning the same day, so Lizzie could take the train back to Fall River.

The newspaper article cited on this same page says Lizzie was in Marion one day, Monday ,to visit the sloop "yacht Mabel F. Swift."

Dr. Handy, whose cottage she was to stay at, says she was not there the following Saturday--so says Bridget in her Prelim. testimony...that Lizzie was not gone from the house the Saturday, 30th. 
I can't find where you say it says she "cut her trip short".  What page & where, pretty please?

So Mrs. Poole and Lizzie are taking the DAUGHTER on a visit to the sister's.  It still doesn't say she is  "feeble-minded," and must have at least been well enough to visit her sister.
I read & transcribed the pertinent parts of the Inquest testimony of Mrs. Tripp.  I left OUT that she inferred this hearsay was told her by her sister maybe 5 years before.

Please can you be more specific?

Actually, now that I think about it more, your case would be stronger if you had implicated Carrie's version of what was said by Lizzie to the period 5 years before, maybe when Carrie was Not so "feeble" nor an invalid.  It would be more believable by Mrs. tripp's testimony also.  But thinking/inferring that this was repeated by a "feeble-minded" individual in July, lends less credence to it...

--Gee, I'm just "editing" to my little hearts Content...actually I wanted to say it's FUN staying up late with you Dave!

Kat-Krazy, u need not doubt me

Rebello, p. 526: "Lizzie had intended to vacation at Dr. Handy's summer home . . . BUT CHANGED HER MIND." She cut her vacation short by going back home instead.

God, its really hard to answer all yr questions becuase I cant see yr post when I'm writing this, but I will try to remember what yr other question was. Oh ya, where did I get that she was feeble-minded? Rebello, p. 536. Also Tripp clearly implies in her inquest testimony that her sister was slow or retarded or whatever the word is, I dont know the politically correct terminology.

Whew I'm tired. Its getting late. Sweet dreams y'all

(Message last edited Jan-6th-02  3:10 AM.)

Just wondering, how do u know that Carrie said Lizzie made that remark "5 years earlier"? I havent found that anywhere. The implication seems to be that Carrie heard Lizzie say that when she was visiting the Pooles in late July, 1892.

wow kat, now I really am gonna fall asleep at the keyboard. ya, its been stimulating. have a good nite

(Message last edited Jan-6th-02  3:58 AM.)

Well, I have to say you posted page numbers and that's what it said:  "feeble minded"--did that wear you out?(I only asked cause you sound tired...) 
It's still implied that she cut her trip short.  She said she wanted to be in town for the "roll-call".  She could have planned a trip to New Bedford (to buy a hatchet whilst alone shopping Saturday 23rd?), come home because Morse was due, and invented to Alice that she would go to Marion after all on Monday.
Do you mean that because she was already "away", you think she had meant to stay away, going on to Marion?  Why?

Augusta did not call her sister "feeble-minded" in her Inquest testimony--Mrs. Tripp didn't testify at the preliminary hearing, nor, I think, the trial.  It could even be a mis-print. It's not in Hoffman or the Witness Statements, either.

In the Witness Statements, anyway, page 31, Augusta is paraphrased by Medley as saying:
"...Nothing being said (about whether they would gain upon father's death )during her visit July 26th."

-- I've actually taken notes to converse with you!  When was the last time That Happened?

(Message last edited Jan-6th-02  4:22 AM.)

I knew you'd ask that!

Pg. 143, Inquest:
A:...it is as much as 5 years since I have SEEN Mrs. Borden at all.
Q: So this was based on what was quite a while ago?
A: Oh, yes sir. (noticing the manner between Abby & stepdaughters).
................
Pg.144:
Q: This was all prior to the last visit, nothing was said about this at the last visit? (about Lizzie's "mother" having an influence over her father).
A: No sir.
{this just preceeds the first transcription I posted}
..............
Pg.145:
A:...I was taken very much by surprise at seeing Officer Medley come in, and I tried to tell;  but those things were years back, and thinking they never would come up, I can't recollect word for word things that occurred YEARS AGO.".....

--I did say "inferred", and "Maybe" 5 years ago.  Reading the testimony 3 times, it still "seems" to be the case.
--I guess you could say we took Carrie SERIOUSLY after ALL!

Well, I learned a bit about Carrie Poole & Mrs. Tripp...what a trip!

I was thinking that maybe the reason Agusta stressed the "feeble"-ness of her sister, was because she didn't think her sister could be put through the stress of public attention and examination in a "court-type" setting.
I think Knowlton knew, Blaisedell knew, and Augusta knew that this testimony was remote in time and total hearsay:  therefore if Knowlton wanted to persue the line of questioning he would have to compel her sister to appear, and probably her health precluded this.
If this testimony was nearer in time, I think Knowlton would have persisted with it through the Preliminary and Trial--that also leads me to the possibility that my interpretation of Tripp's testimony was about suppositions of her own, and whatever Carrie told her, happened "long ago."