1. "Lizzie Goes to Church ??"
Posted by augusta on Aug-4th-02 at 12:11 AM

I've always heard the story about Lizzie going back to church one time, was scorned and never went back.

Recently I've read otherwise.  That she did attend church after the murders. 

What's the real story on this?  "I want to know the truth."

Also, I've read in at least two newspaper articles from the "Sourcebook" that she was buried by the rector from the "Church of Ascension" (spelled two different ways in both articles).  I had thought she had an Episcopal funeral.

I have read more than once that Andrew and Abby seldom went to church.  I wonder if this is true.  What else did they have to do on Sundays?  I'd think in 1892, church would be pretty exciting.  It's not like they were missing "Blondie Goes Latin" or something.  Did Andrew give up being a Quaker?  

(Message last edited Aug-4th-02  12:13 AM.)

I have heard pretty much what you have on this, Augusta.  I didn't really have any info, but, I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your post.  I wonder if the elder Bordens went to Mass on special days, like Easter, or Christmas, or the like?  Thats the way my mom attends church now, she used to be a devout church goer when younger. 

Victoria Lincoln claimed to have had Lizzie as a Sunday School teacher. When was Vicky born? Is it possible or just a "recovered memory"?

Lincoln also claims she lived close to Mapelcroft and she didn't.
She claims her grandfather imported Helen Leighton ESPECIALLY to become the Fall River Librarian, which he didn't, as Helen Leighton was a nurse.
She claimed Lizzie had epilepsy and Killed.
Rebello finds this "Sunday School Class" reduced to one or a couple of Chinese immigrant gentlemen(?)
Anymore claims we can dispute made by Lincoln?

Found this blurb in Boston Herald-Saturday, August 6, 1892 on the LAB Virtual Museum and Library:

LIZZIE BORDEN

Her School and Later Life

Her father and mother were religious and regular church attendants, and she has been surrounded by Christian home influences.


This article was allegedly written by a woman, who I don't know?  And to what or who she attributes the information of the elder Bordens' church going, I don't know either?  But, interesting none-the-less! 

In Victoria Endicott Lincoln's book (not a biography?) she admits that while she used to say she lived on the same block, a trip back to her home revealed the lived on the end of the NEXT block.
Was it just an honest mistake?

Does "A Private DIsgrace" really say she was a Sunday School student, or is this just another legend. She did say her Mom warned her against Lizzie because "she was once unkind to her parents". But this may have been a Bowdlerized version of Lizzie's association with actresses (regarded then or now as immoral types).
So what do you say about Anna Nicole Smith?

According to the books I read (my memory?), Andrew seldom went to Churce, and neither did Emma. Lizzie and Abby went together (but didn't say how many times). It would be in Lizzie's self interest to ride with Abby, who was said to seldom walk her 210 lb body.

Abby's feeding implies a very unhappy individual, doesn't it?

Or Abby's fat was armour against the jibes and hate of her stepdaughters.  Just my humble opinion. 

Hi Augusta -- I haven't forgotten your question. 

It's hard to be really sure about Lizzie's churchgoing habits after the trial.  Spiering, Pearson,and Kent all say that she was shunned at the Congregational Church and never went back.  (I'm not even going to touch Lincoln here for obvious reasons).  But DeMille has her attending all her life although she "was all but cut in church". 

Perhaps she did switch to the Church of Ascension.  (On the Umass site, in the part about Fall River, that church is described as the most beautiful church in town.) 

Rebello notes on p. 320 that "Lizzie's funeral was private.  Services were conducted by Rev. Edmund J. Cleveland, rector of the Church of the Ascension." 

The denomination of The Church of the Ascension is Episcopalian.

Victoria Endicott Lincoln admits to this in her book. She remembered living on the same block, and often dined out on this story. But when she returned home to write "A Private Disgrace" she found her memory was wrong.

Isn't this all too common after 50+ years?

Isn't overeating then or now a sign of "depression"?
Somebody caught up in a situation where they can't break free?
What about Lizzie gaining weight in her 40s?

Yes, Rays, overeating can most definitely be a sign of depression.  I have met some women in my life, though not depressed now, where sexually or physically abused when younger and they put on alot of weight, which to me, is a form of armour.

With Lizzie, I wonder if it was depression or because she could now afford to eat what and when and where she wanted.  Plus, Lizzie always seemed to be a little on the ..... side, I don't know what word to use, she wasn't fat, or plump really, or chunky or obese.  Fleshy?  And most of that weight seems to be in her jowls and neck. 

Historically, most men preferred the "Rubenesque" woman. Plump implies sexuality, and strength for baby carrying. I'm old enough to associate thinness with TB (at least in popular speech), not style.

There is also the "peasant look" in men as well as women. Chunky enough to do the work needed to survive and prosper.

I'm going to be a little un-modest & say
Lizzie's post 30's weight gain was probably
due to menopause. And during the trial she
probably didn't spend much time in the prison gym
working out the way they do now. 

Thanks for all the goodies, guys.  (I've been in Fairhaven to visit the Brownells ... i.e., on vacation.)  I'd never heard Lizzie going to church with Abby.  I would agree that Abby probably wouldn't have walked to church.  But she did walk to market frequently. 

Thanks, Diana, for your interesting post.  So the Church of Ascension was Episcopal.  That clears that up. 

I won't read Victoria Lincoln ever again.  It is so full of inaccuracies, it screws you up.  I don't think her saying she lived close to Maplecroft was an oversight.  She has too many 'oversights' in her book to be believed. 

I remember reading that Andrew and Abby, in later years, walked to church.  And read that Emma rarely did go.  And Lizzie went to her own church. 

Supposedly Lizzie was thought to weigh about 135 pounds at the time of the murders.  She looks far more than that in her famous Newport pose in back of the chair (what IS that book she's holding??). Her jaw was said to be 'massive'. 

I don't think Abby ate like a pig.  She didn't weigh THAT much.  Perhaps it was a bit for that era, but it's not like 300+.  She probably did eat extra - and I'd think it was due to that disfunctional household.  I don't think she got much exercise in, either.  When you look at how the chores were divided up, everybody just had a little bit to do - including Bridget.  Hm.  Food for thought. 

The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, David Kent, Branden Pub. Co., Boston Mass., 1992
A staff correspondent of the Boston Post, writing from Taunton:

"THE FAMILY MINISTER TALKS  {no date, probably after arrest but before Prelim.]
He Scores The Police and Tells of Lizzie's Home Life

[Minister  Mr. Jubb]...  'I was talking to Mrs. Holmes about this question of the feeling between father and daughter the other day,' the minister went on, 'and she corroborates the statements of the girls.  She was very intimate with them, as everybody knows, and she says they were on excellent terms.  Mr. Holmes, by the way, is the leading deacon in my church, of which Mr. Borden was also a member.  He never attended, however, out of pique toward Mr. Holmes.  Mr. Borden had a piece of property that the corporation desired to buy but would not acceed to Mr. Borden's price.  Mr. Holmes voted against paying the price, as he thought it too high, and as a result Mr. Borden never attended the church afterwards.' "...

--sound a bit familiar?  The story about a tax assesor that Andrew had a falling out with and THAT was why he did not go to church?  This news article sounds like the basis for THAT story... 

Maybe there was more than one reason for Andy being upset due to pricing. I think the tax assessor is a more reasonable answer, since it is an ongoing thing. Not getting his price merely means a deferred sale.

Victoria Lincoln was a novelist, and knew how to tell a good story.
"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story."
Just remember her story is based on the "dubious source of in-group hearsay", and should be tested against other books.

Well, I happened to find a Source for the story that may have evolved into something else later.
At least there's a SOURCE and a Reverend to boot ! -- even if it is a news item.

What have you got?  Let's see your poker hand?

Please don't be unkind to Miss Vicky. She was a novelist, and knew what sold books. Be grateful for whatever light she shed on the facts. Was there anyone else of her class on record?

Just don't take anyone's word, since they are all based on circumstantial evidence or hearsay. Just use your judgment.

The book I read (AR Brown?) said it was the tax assessor that peeved Andy to go to a different church. Maybe there was something political here, after Andy screwed the Brayton family?

I once worked with a man who registered with the political pary approved by his assessor: "so they wouldn't raise my taxes". Why do YOU think so much of the country has a one-party rule?

I also read in my local newspaper about a former politician getting his business condemned for "urban renewal". He was an enemy of the Mayor, and lost an election.

Thanks for the gem from the "Sourcebook", Kat.  I have the book but hadn't read that article. 

If Mr. Holmes and Andrew were enemies of a sort, it's ironic that the Holmes's were so close to Lizzie after the murders.  Hmmm...

I can see where tempers could clash over a failed sale.  There's much in what Rays says about getting on an assessor's good side, tho in today's world I don't think an assessor could get away with doing anyone any favors no matter how good the friend.  It sounds like Holmes was an assessor but the fallout with Andrew was over a sale.

Yes, Victoria Lincoln was a very good writer.  She was a novelist.  BUT her "Private Disgrace" was classified as NON-fiction.  Therefore, anything she took liberties with and strayed from the truth for readability's sake was a lie.  And that was unfair to us readers.  We believed her to be telling the truth throughout the book.  It especially hurts the Borden case, since her myths are susceptible to being repeated, compounding a myriad of rumors that will always be floating around somewhere out there.  She SHOULD have written this in the "historical fiction" category.  That would have been great. 

By the way, that line people quote of her saying her parents said Lizzie "wasn't very nice to her parents" sounds contrived in itself.  It's a good line.  But with her fictionalizing so much of this book, who knows if it was ever said?  It was so special because everyone thought it was true and someone really told their kid that.  If we had read that line in Elizabeth Engstrom's fictional book "Lizzie Borden", none of us would have remembered it.  It was because we thought it was TRUE that we went "Wow! That's neat!" 

I think Victoria Lincoln did more harm than good with her book.  In its next printing, it would be a welcome sight to see it under "fiction" next time.

Victoria Lincoln's "A Private Disgrace" is listed as 'biography' in my library!! But aren't some biographies just as fictional?

Vicky didn't understand her Mom's warning about being "unkind to her parents". It's just a Bowdlerized version of the truth: Lizzie hangs with actresses and other immoral people, and they do what people only whisper about. IMO.

If you THINK tax assessors don't do favors, if they can get away with it, try reading your local newspaper. The section with local news. Or the crime section when they are caught. Wasn't there a case in northern NJ a few years ago where corporations had greatly reduced assessments after paying off the politicians? Is it diffent in NY or elsewhere? Remember in 1989 Penna when a politician commited suicide at a press conference? Wasn't that about lowered assessment?

Was it any different in "The Gildled Age"? Doesn't AR Brown reference this indirectly? Mr Holmes may have truly regretted the adverse situation of Lizzie, especially if he suspected Willy did it.

Here's an article on Lizzie when she first was acquitted. It was in the Manitoba Morning Free Press, of June 28, 1893. They were expecting her at church that first week anyway.

THE BORDEN MYSTERY

Lizzie is Now Receiving Some Queer Correspondence.

Fall River, June 27, -- Miss Lizzie Borden did not go to church Sunday, nor did her sister Emma leave the house.  During Miss Borden's imprisonment it was stated she was anxious to go to church and face her friends and acquaintances, but if she had any such desire she did not gratify it.  Many curious persons stood about the Borden house and the church only to be disappointed.  The church was well filled, but the Rev. Mr. Jubb made no reference to the Borden case in his sermon.  Miss Borden's letters continue to accumulate.  She has received many offers of marriage and suggestions as to how she may best pursue the murderer of her parents.  She has not formulated definite plans for the future and is willing to receive only her most intimate friends.

I would have loved to have read the letters she received.


(Message last edited Sep-1st-02  5:46 PM.)

Wow!  Thanks for the info, Harry!  I would like to delve into those letters myself, could you imagine? 

When we see the big fuss made over that "Robinsky letter" to Emma, I have to ask "Why?"
We know that Knowlton got tons of letters.
We know that Hilliard got tons of letters  (See Psychics in the Case, Privy) (And the content of the long-awaited "Hilliard Papers" coming sometiime from FRHS)
We know Emma got letters
We know Lizzie got letters.
They all probably got as many letters as a lottery winner would today...

So WHY was that Robinsky letter singled out, to the extent that we have 6 source references to it, minimum, 110 years later??

Either it was because it was one that was taken seriously enough to be checked out thoroughly or, as I feel, it was a fake from someone in Lizzie's camp to throw the scent off of her and it was found out.  Perhaps that is why that particular letter is always thrown in to most of the Borden books.  I guess it wouldn't appear in one where Lizzie is painted as totally innocent.