1. "Lizzie's Pail & Stool"
Posted by augusta on Jun-12th-02 at 7:52 PM

These pictures come from my first trip to Fall River in 1989.  I got to the FRHS 15 minutes before closing, and Florence Brigham gave me a private tour of the Lizzie Room.  Back then you could take photos of Lizzie's meal pail from her jail cell in Taunton, and they let you hold it.  It's a big pail!  But back then those pails had compartments to separate the courses and keep hot and cold stuff separate.  I can imagine the pail coming back to Lizzie filled with meals from the nearby good restaurants.  Tripe, perhaps?  Meat loaf?  Molasses cookies?  Coffee (always one cup, never two, according to Bridget concerning Lizzie's breakfasts)?  My daughter is holding the pail. 

Here is the stool Lizzie used while in the Taunton jail.  You can't take a picture of this anymore at the FRHS.  This was taken in 1989 - August, of course!

Wow!  Thanks for the cool pictures, Augusta!  I can just picture Lizzie sitting on that stool and opening that dinner pail!  We know she also loved orange sherbet, but, I don't know if they would have something like that available to her?  BTW, your daughter looks like a little sweetie!    Although I imagine that shes not so little anymore?

You're sweet, Susan.  Right, my daughter is out of high school now.  She's still a sweetie, tho. 

If Lizzie liked her orange sherbet, I'll bet she got her orange sherbet.  Something tells me that, tho the stool came from her cell, she had something more comfortable brought in to sit on.  I don't think Miss Borden did 10 months on that hard wooden stool.

I wonder if anyone has any reference as to what Lizzie actually had in her cell.  I'm of a like mind, Augusta, it seems that they bent the rules for her here and there, why not with the prison furniture too?  Which makes me wonder also what her favorite food was?

Whats that?  Yes, Lizzie.  YES!  I brought your orange sherbet, now simmer down, missy!



(Message last edited Jun-14th-02  11:58 AM.)

The title of this thread has got to STOP.

It sounds like a medical test.

No picture provided.....

Wow hope they never got the dinner pail and the slop pail mixed up...("HEY! This isn't orange sherbert!! Reagan! Reagan! I'm going to kick her up and down this jail!")
Where did you find out she liked orange sherbert by the way? Interesting stuff.

(Message last edited Jun-14th-02  8:05 AM.)

Like all good prisoners, I'm sure Lizzie used the universal seat; the bed.

Did they make PEAR sherbet in those days?

Kashesan, I found it in Frank Spiering's LIZZIE and it was also in a magazine article that I clipped out years ago.

Chapter 20
pg 223

In 1926, Lizzie entered Truesdale Hospital in Fall River for a gallbladder operation.

  The nurses found her an uncooperative patient.  They had difficulty keeping Lizzie, her bed or her room in proper hospital order.  She would not eat the food.  Perhaps she experienced the same abhorraence for institutional food that she had felt years before while imprisoned in the Taunton Jail.  Her chauffeur brought her daily rations from Laura Carr's, a well-known caterer in Providence, 14 miles away.  Lizzie's favorite delicacy was orange sherbet.

Another favorite of hers was tripe.  Yuck.

Is that INTESTINES stuffed with Orange Sherbert?

Well, NOW the Subject Title Matches the content....

Here's Truesdale hospital in 1929, about 3 years after Lizzie's stay.

Augusta, where did you find out that disgusting fact?  Tripe, ewww!  Haggis, anyone? 

Kat, you are too funny!  But, seriously, isn't the reason for having to have your gallbladder out is from eating too much rich food over a life time?

Thanks for the photo, Harry!

20% of all adults (in America?) have gallstones.
It's genetic if you have a pre-disposition toward getting them.
They are made of of cholesterol.
If they MOVE and block a duct, it causes intense pain.
They might move when a person eats a particularly fatty food which makes the stomach call out for BILE.
The bile comes squirting out of the gallbladder to the stomach to help with the breakdown and digestion of the fats., distubing the placement of the "stones".
If the stones never move a person can live their life never bothered by them.
If one causes a blockage because it is too large to pass, it can be a Medical Emergency.
If the area contines inflamed it can cause infection, and a chronic gallbladder problem, resulting in AT LEAST jaundice.

A brief description of changes to Lizzie's cell at Taunton from the Aug. 15th, 1892 Evening Standard:

"Lizzie Borden's cell has been made more comfortable by Mrs. Andrew R. Wright (the warden's wife) giving her one of her own big feather pillows to replace the hard one that goes with prison cells, and a rocking chair from her own cosey home in an adjoining wing of the jail.  The white counterpane and pillow slip of the cot bed, the flowers that she had on Friday and fruit that Emma brought when she came Saturday served to relieve further the nudity of her narrow quarters, though the Taunton cells are larger than in some jails, and they are absolutely clean, painted white, as are the stone corridors, relieved with a very light green."

Now back to my orange sherbet, mmmmm...Good!

Thanks, Kat!  You know, the jaundice part makes me think.  Almost every discription given of Lizzie describes her as having sallow skin.  SALLOW: adj of a yellowish sickly color.  Perhaps our Lizzie suffered from gallbladder attacks all her adult life?

Thanks, Harry, for the great find!  So, I guess that is something else that the LEGEND movie got wrong, Lizzie's cell was never so feminized and pretty.  A rocker, a bed with a soft pillow, a stool, flowers and some fruit.  It still doesn't sound very inviting.  What Harry?  You're eating your dessert before dinner?  Its Tripe, you know.  Lizzie's favorite!

Wasn't that "tripe with mushrooms"?  A humble meal to remind her of those good old days?

Rays, that just made me think, speaking of the good old days.  I wonder if our Lizzie ever touched another bite of mutton in her life? 

No freakin' way

Mutton, mutton.  Who has the mutton? 

Ooooo, not to mention this yummy recipe for Tripe that I found!  What a great name too; Recipes of the Damned!

http://www.batemania.com/recipes/103000.html

I think I'll pass on the tripe recipe Susan.  And those Ground Pork Peanut Butter cookies too.

All this makes Mutton sound good! Not if its a week old though.

Well, Harry, there's still plenty of orange sherbet to eat.  I wonder what other scary things Lizzie like to eat? 

"Dieting Makes You Fat" by G. Cannon & H. Einzig has a comment on page 81: "we discard the most nutritious parts of meat (blood and guts)". Don't wild animals immediately wolf down the guts and liver of any animal they kill? And lick up the blood? Do they know something? I've read that in certain former colonial countries the guts of beasts shot by hunters are eaten first.

Blood Sausage is a treat in certain Continental countries. Don't many sausages still use animal "casings"? Are you better off with it?

But not with the tallow and fat trimmings often disposed of in sausages and hamburgers. BTW, do YOU know what's in that hamburger you enjoyed the other day?

I do, I do!  It was a veggie burger made mostly of soy.  And thats not to say that I'm not a carnivore, because I am.  I just don't eat red meat that often unless I have a craving for it.  Isn't liver extremely high in fat?  I've tried blood sausage and it wasn't high on my list of good things to eat, just my humble opinion. 

I think most food (depending on cultural conditioning, of course) is healthy when freshly prepared. Unless you make it yourself from the ingredients, you don't really know what's in it. Even a soyburger?

"Consumer Reports" in the 1970s used to recommend buying a piece of beef, then having it ground in front of you to be sure of what you bought. Generally, the 93% lean sirloin is the best hamburger to buy, according to my taste (and limited testing).

Ever read the label on processed cookies and cakes? Just WHAT are all those chemicals in there? You may have heard about the problem in french fries and potato chips? "Fried foods aren't good for you" said Satchel Paige (?). I don't doubt that extra fat was useful for those who walk to work, do heavy labor, and don't live in centrally heated homes. "Dieting Makes You Fat" warns above all of sugar consumption. Once a country begins to eat 70 pounds of sugar a year, after 20 years an epidemic of diabetes occurs. But they put it in everything!!!

They say that the consumption of sugar beginning in the late 19th century was followed by heart disease; unknown before that. Note that those who die under 50 rarely from heart disease (then).

Liver is recommended by doctors for those with anemia or other digestion problems. It is the organ eaten first by killer animals; rich in vitamins and nutrients. You can check it out.

I totally believe you, Rays.  I was stating that I had heard that Liver was loaded with fat, don't know for sure.  If you can make a nice pate from it or liverwurst, I'll eat it. 

Tripe is stomach tissue from a ruminant (hoofed animal) - usually beef.  (It's also slang for 'trash'.)  I could never bring myself to eat that. 

I don't know where I learned that Lizzie liked tripe.  But I am most interested in details like that of her life.  I think it helps to flesh out her character more. 

What else did she like?  Pears, of course.  She liked one cup of coffee every morning - never two, at least prior to the murders (Bridget testified to this).  Molasses cookies. That awful meat loaf nobody wants to try to make from her recipe.  I still think something's missing from that.  And 'cover in water' makes no sense.

Cracker Jacks came out about that time.  I wonder if Lizzie tried them. Bob, I don't think they have pear sherbet even today.
I would guess that after she moved in to Maplecroft, she had 'the best' - whatever that would entail in her day.  I wonder if she was fond of seafood.  That's a natural for that part of the country.  And the Tuesday before the murders they had swordfish.  (Course they all got sick after that...)


(Message last edited Jun-30th-02  11:22 AM.)

I am totally with you there, Augusta.  I too like to find out little tid-bits of information about Lizzie which make her a real woman instead of a legend.  We know so little though, her favorite color was blue, she loved pansies.  I wonder after she became wealthy if she had any particular passions that she indulged?  Like, for instance, was she like Imelda Marcos and owned hundreds of pairs of shoes?  Did she own over 12 dresses or so once she became rich?  I could go on and on.  Theres just so much to wonder about our Miss Lizzie! 

If you don't mind a little gossip with your tripe and sherbert, here are some memories of Lizbeth, from THE CASEBOOK OF FAMILY & CRIME, Williams, et.al, 1980, T.I.S. Publications Div., Bloomington, Indiana, pg. 262 +

"Mr. Ellis A. Waring, of Swansea, has two links to the Borden story.  His cousin, Dwight Waring, married Defense Attorney Jenning's daughter, and as a child, Ellis Waring played in the garden at Maplecroft.  (Interview, July 5, 1979).

Of Lizzie he recalled:  'She used to yell, "Get out of my yard!"
'The grocery man was scared to go in - he left groceries in the back.'

'She owned a Packard automobile.  Always had a chauffeur.  Apparently, he had other duties as well.  People said that he played the piano for Lizzie's entertainment.'

'She always wore black in later years -- black dress, black coat, and black hat and veil.  I just remember a lot of black coming out of the house.'


Mrs. Ellis A. (Ruth) Waring, related by marriage to Defense Attorney Jennings and a resident of Swansea, where Andrew Borden owned property.  Mrs. Waring's neighbor, Calvin Gardner, was the son of Chester Gardner, whose father's farm adjoined Andrew Borden's property.   (Interview, July 5, 1979).

'Chester Gardner who was about sixteen at the time, told us that about three days before the murder, Lizzie came over to Swansea to get an axe sharpened so she could kill some chickens.'  (They did as she asked).
* * * * *

Mrs. Miriam Durfee Holman, member of the Central Congregational Church of Fall River.  Her family's pew in the church was located near Lizzie Borden's, and she had opportunity to observe the reactions of church people.   (Interview, July 6, 1979).

What do you recall of the Bordens?
'I was a young child when it happened... For years no one would sit in that pew [Lizzie's].  I believe it was Pew # 21.  (Our family pew was #19, and Lizzie's was in front of ours.)  She never came to church after the incident.  Rev. Jubb was very much for her.'

Were most of the people in the church for her?
'I cannot answer that honestly.
My mother always said Lizzie did it.'
* * * * *

Mrs. Vida Pearson Turner, active in church society in Fall River, had a rich contralto voice and was often called upon to sing at funerals.  She remembers receiving a call from a friend of Lizzie's, asking her to come to the house on French street to sing  'In My Ain Countrie.'   (Interview, July 6, 1979).

'I was summoned to sing.  The undertaker unlocked the door, let me in, and locked the door immediately.  I was ushered into a room, sang the song, and was then ushered out.  The undertaker told me, "Go straight home and don't tell anyone where you have been."  And I kept that promise for many, many years.'  (Mrs. Turner was asked if she wished to see Lizzie's corpse.  She declined.)

Of the case, she said, 'It is a thing against Fall River.  I wish it could be completely erased.'  "
* * * * *

Thanks, Kat.  Boy, I'm awful thirsty after that big grain of salt I took that with. 

Are you seriously underwhelmed?
Cause there's a whole 'nother page.  It gets better...

From "Yesterday in Fall River" by Hoffman, page 352:
"...When Mrs. Turner entered the living room, she was surprised to find herself alone.  Even Lizzie's body was absent.  She had been buried secretly the previous night. ..."

Yet later in Vida Turner's entry, it mentions the interview in Joyce Williams' "Casebook". 

Was the body there at the time Vida sang or not?  As Lizzie would say, "I want to know the truth." 

Like many other anecdotes (and fisherman's tales) they may have been enhanced during the many retellings.

Does "playing the piano" (for entertainment) have a code message? An implication of other things? Like reading a certain magazine for the articles.

That's a really good question, Augusta.

I realized the discepancy but hadn't checked other sources until you asked that.

Wouldn't Hoffman at least double check with CASEBOOK...

Well, send me to Rebello!

Pg. 319-20  Headlines;

"Lizzie Borden's Funeral Secret", Boston Herald, June 3, 1927: 8

"Lizzie Borden Dead / Freed In Famous Murder Case / Servants Console Fall River Woman / Secret Funeral Arranged for Defendant in Mystery of 1892", The Evening Bulletin, Providence, RI, June 3, 1927: 1

"To Be buried Beside Parents / Grave Prepared for Lizzie A. Borden in Family Plot", The Morning Mercury, New Bedford, June 4, 1927, : 8.

"Lizzie Borden To Lie With Kin, Cementary Lot is Prepared for Interment, But Little Else Known, Fall River Woman Had Large Estate", Boston Herald, June 3, 1927: 12

"Services Are Held for Lizzie Borden / Woman Freed in Famous Fall River Murder Case is Buried at Noon / Few Friends at Funeral / Coachman, Chauffeur and Another Employee of Wealthy Recluse Are Among Pallbearers / Nine Cars in Cortege", The Evening Standard, Providence, RI, June 5, 1927: 5

"NOTE:  Lizzie's funeral was private.  Services were conducted by Rev. Edmund J. Cleveland, Rector of the Church of the Ascension.  Only relatives and a few intimate friends attended the services.  Mrs. Alfred G. Turner sang 'My Ain Countrie' at Lizzie's home and was told not to say anything about where she had been."

--So what do you think?

Kat, found this in Forty Whacks by David Kent, pg 219:

Her faithful friends gathered at the French Street home for a private funeral service.  A brief prayer and benediction was said and a choir member sang "My Ain Countree."

Also found this, her obituary, pg 217 to 218:

From the Fall River Globe  June 2, 1927

Lisbeth Borden Dies After Short Illness, Age 68

Miss Lisbeth A. Borden died this morning at 306 French Street, where she had made her home for about 30 years.  She had been ill with pneumonia for about a week, although for some time she had been in failing health.
  
  A member of one of the old Fall River families, having been the daughter of Andrew J. and Sarah Anthony Borden, she had lived here all of her life.  With her two maids, she lived a quiet retired life, paying occasional visits to out-of-town friends and receiving a few callers whose staunch friendship she valued highly.

  Taking an intense pride in the surroundings in which she lived she did much to improve the locality, purchasing adjoining property, that the same refined atmosphere might be maintained.  Greatly interested in mature, she was daily seen providing for the hundreds of birds that frequented the trees in her yard, taking care that the shallow box where they gathered was filled with crumbs, seeds and other foods that they favored.  She had miniature houses erected in her trees and, in these, frivolous squirrels made their homes.  Her figure as she visited with her wild callers, many whom became so friendly that they never seemed to mind her approach, was a familiar one in that section.

  Another pastime in which she greatly delighted was riding through the country roads and lanes.  She made frequent trips about the town in her motor car, but was never so pleased as when winding through the shady country by-ways.

  The death of Miss Borden recalls to many one of the most famous murder trials in the history of the state.  On the fourth of August, 1892, Andrew J. Borden and his wife, Abby D. Borden, were found murdered in their Second Street home.  After a preliminary investigation, Lisbeth Borden was arrested and formally charged with the murder of her father.  After a hearing in Fall River she was indicted by the grand jury and in November 1892, was tried and acquitted in New Bedford.

  The trial attracted statewide interest.  No further arrests were ever made and the murder has remained an unsolved mystery since.  Following her acquittal, Miss Borden lived a rather retired life and devoted much of her time to private charities of which the public knew little.

  Surviving Miss Borden is a sister, Miss Emma Borden of New Hampshire, formerly of Providence.


And yes, I know there are discrepencies in this article:

Lizzie went by Lizbeth, not Lisbeth

She was 67 when she died, not 68

She died the day before, on June 1st

Sarah Borden's maiden name was Morse, not Anthony

Lizzie was tried and acquitted in June 1893, not November 1892



  

That's good.
Is there any more in Kent?

More for Kat from Forty Whacks by David Kent

Pg. 219

Even as Lizzie was lowered into her grave, a new legend was being created.  As a typical example of the inventiveness of those who have written about her, this account is by Victoria Lincoln in her book, A Private Disgrace. "After brief, unattended services at the undertaker's her black-draped coffin had been carried by night to Oak Grove, where it was laid in the grave by black-clad men, Negroes chosen so that not even the pale gleam of a face or a hand might betray the secrecy."

   The truth was that no service had been held at the undertaker's and her undraped coffin had been lowered into her grave at 2:30 on Saturday afternoon, in broad daylight by four white men, Fred Coggeshall, Ernest Perry, Norman Hall, and Edson Robinson.

I wonder if Edson is related to George Robinson at all? 

According to Rebello (p. 342), Emma was the one who had African-American pallbearers. This information came from a contemporary newspaper account that's included in "The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook" (by coincidence also on page 342!).  It states that "Negro bearers were employed, a social custom which had almost been forgotten, although formerly followed in many funerals of prominent persons.  Miss Borden expressed a desire that this custom be used at her funeral."  Since Emma's funeral was at l:30 in the afternoon, I don't think this preference had anything to do with the bearers' complexions.  I suspect these were trained, professional pallbearers and were considered an elegant touch.
The "Sourcebook," incidentally, includes a contemporary newspaper account that gives the names and occupations of Lizzie's pallbearers as "Fred Coggeshall, the coachman, Ernest Terry, her chauffeur, Norman Hall, gardener who served the dead woman in her later years, and Eseson Robinson..." (no occupation given for Robinson).  The funeral service was said to include a small group of Lizzie's intimates and many costly floral offerings.  This was an AP story, and the person who wrote it had no names of funeral attendees and was unaware that Emma Borden wasn't in attendance.  (I think Robinson's name is misspelled in this article, because I've always seen "Edson" elsewhere. Hoffman says Edson Robinson was Lizzie's cousin and lived in Swansea.)



(Message last edited Jul-2nd-02  11:10 AM.)

Wow, thanks for the info, Edisto!  So, then if Edson was Lizzie's cousin, was he any relation to George?  Wouldn't that put a twist in the story, Lizzie defended by a relative. 

I think Spiering's book also repeats the tale and says it was untrue.
But Emma (like so many, many people then or now) believed what she read in the newspaper. "They wouldn't print it if it wasn't true" is not just a phrase from the song ("Sunday Papers" in Britain), but the 'official' motto of the National Enquirer.

(Message last edited Jul-2nd-02  5:12 PM.)

Pardon me?  What was it that Emma read in the newspapers and believed to be true?  Her own obituary?  (Unlikely at best.)  Lizzie's obituary? (Remember, Emma hadn't been in her right mind for some time before that was printed and probably wasn't much interested in the news.) -Or did she read in the newspapers that it was elegant to employ African-American pallbearers? 
Confused

Are you being difficult? Of course it was Lizzie's obituary.
Were the details in the newspapers ALL correct?
If not, it shows the faults in depending on them for truth.

If you ever watch "The Front Page" film from about 25? years ago, just watch the scene where each reporter files a story.

(Message last edited Jul-3rd-02  3:43 PM.)

More confusion.

In post transcribed #32, Vida Turner doesn't make clear what day she sang at Maplecroft.

Lizzie died on a Wednesday, June 1st.

The newspaper headlines (posted) say through the 4th, "Ground being prepared at grave"...etc.

Then on the 5th the paper says Lizzie interred at noon...which is Sunday.

Kent, in post transcribed #41, states Lizzie was buried on a Saturday at 2:30.

Are the papers one day off...I mean reporting next day what happened the day before...and therefore Lizzie WAS buried on Saturday (somewhere between NOON & 2:30)?

I guess at the time no one thought to get all the facts and to get them straight because us Bordenites would be looking at them over 100 years later!  You know, its like what was incidental for them is of great importance to us, if only they knew! 

Well part of my interest in how long it took to bury Lizzie may seem a little ghoulish, in that I was wondering how long a body could stay unburied in June without too much corruption.

Someone had written Stef a couple of questions (as ADMIN.), as to Andrew & Abby's bodies autopsy dates and asked an interesting question:  Were the Borden's bodies kept on ice?

In looking up some autopsy info for a reply, I found a curiosity, in the Preliminary, and this was my reply: 

Dr. Dolan was ordered, on the day of the funeral, Saturday, by the Attorney General's Office, to delay burial of the bodies of the Bordens and to remove the heads for further analysis.  He complied, but it is not known how the bodies were stored in the interim, nor why it took from Saturday until Thursday the 11th, to complete this order.  Apparently, according to Dolan at the Preliminary Hearing, the bodies were STILL not immediately buried, but interred "a week from last Tuesday" (he thinks).  So if the head-less bodies were buried on a Tuesday, that would probably be the 16th.  Being kept on ice might be a good guess.

--Does anyone know any different?

There was only a "partial" autopsy done on August 4 at the Borden home.  They took the stomachs out then and sent them for analysis, along with milk samples.  It's confusing because they did not put "partial autopsy" on the paperwork for that day.

When they did the "complete" autopsy a week after the murders, which was held at the cemetery, it was noted that the bodies were pretty decomposed.  Andrew's brain was liquified.

I would not think they embalmed them before they did the complete autopsy.  They would have had to have kept them on ice as best they could.  But there wasn't any ice at the Borden home the day of the funerals.  When the cortege arrived at the cemetery the bodies were put in a receiving tomb until the autopsy. 

I don't understand why they waited a week before doing the autopsy.  Any ideas?

Don't mind me...I'm thinking aloud...

They died on Thursday the 4th.
They were taken to Oak Grove with ceremony on Saturday, the 6th.
They were put in a vault to await the fuller autopsy and the removal of the heads until Thursday the 11th.
So Technically they did not postpone burial for a Week (Thursday to Thursday), but rather from Saturday to Thursday (5 days).
Yet even though it took so long for that order to be carried out, the Borden bodies were STILL not interred until the 16th which I think is EXCESSIVE.

Could they have been really busy in the Coroner's office?
Lost the paperwork?
Mismanagement?
Did they need the bodies for longer after they did the "final"...possibly finding something that we don't know about which delayed things?
This is Too Awful.

BTW:  I re-studied your comments, Augusta , on the ArCHIVED TOPIC "Embalming in the 1890's".  I think that was the title.  It was very early this morning.  It was interesting...

Front page
ARCHIVEs
Pg. 2
"Embalming Before 1893"

Tells about funeral practices and innovations.


----I have a Civil War question...  Where do I ask it?

                                                                     From Old Cemeteries, Arsenic, and Health Safety
by John L. Konefes and Michael K. McGee

From the Civil War until about 1910, Arsenic was the main ingredient in the embalming fluids used widely throughout the country.  Although effective, Arsenic is toxic and persistent, and elemental Arsenic will never degrade into harmless by-products.  Progress in embalming practices during the late 1880s has left a legacy that can potentially harm the health of archeologists or cemetery workers, and impact the environment.  Awareness of this potential problem is the first step in alleviating any real damage that might occur.

Arsenic embalming began as a sanitary practice and a practical means to preserve the body until burial or for transport.  Considering that the alternative was ice, Arsenic embalming seemed like a significant improvement.

I would imagine after all that was done with the Borden's bodies and the amount of time that they were probably kept on ice, I would think that they were finally embalmed.  There was a wake and a funeral to go through without these 2 bodies rotting to shreds.  Here is a link to the page I found the info on.

http://www.waterindustry.org/arsenic-3.htm

(Message last edited Jul-17th-02  2:49 AM.)

The bodies were not "readied" by the undertaker until sometime FRIDAY night, just previous to the funeral Saturday morning.  Did they embalm usually in peoples homes?  Don't they take them "away" for that?
Then, when Dolan got the order to NOT INTER, the bodies were in a holding vault(?) until a new, full autopsy was performed.  Embalming the bodies at that time (previous to full autopsy) would be a mistake, so they probably didn't.
Now, that takes us up until the 11th of August, with bodies intact except for the stomaches, as far as we know.  Then the heads were taken and cleaned down  to skull, and the bodies could then be released for burial.
Sometime between the 11th and the 16th, if the interpretation of Dolans answer is correct, The bodies waited for burial that extra 5 days...why embalm, then?  Why not just bury at that point?  ...Which apparently they neglected to do?
Would they embalm as late as that, then bury?

I have yet to read anywhere that Andy and Abby were "embalmed" maybe I'm on the wrong page (in my text books that is)...can someone direct me to an author who references the bodies being embalmed?

As I understand it...the bodies were laid out on "undertakers boards" for the post mortum (the first one...the quicky removal of stomachs) and later in the day both bodies where on the dining room table waiting for Winward's talents.

The morning of the service (Saturday) both bodies had been placed in caskets and situp in the sitting room for the "memorial service".  As I recall Andrew's body was placed on his left side so as to hide the left side of his face on the pillow in the casket.

This posture gave the appearance that he was "sleeping" on his left side and hide the hideous wounds.  Abby was placed on her back and did not require any special posture.

The greatest saddness of this withholding of burial for the "final" autopsy was that the officals never once mentioned to either Emma or Lizzie that the bodies where not buried at once and that the two heads had been removed.

We discovery this bit of horror during the trial when the good Medical Examiner of Bristol County, Dr. Dolan produced the skulls in the court room at which our beloved Lizzie fainted upon seeing them.

How mean and cruel can a "professional" get...I mean after all...

BC

So, Bob Cook, do you think that Andrew and Abby were kept "on ice" the whole time before the wake and funeral?  I mean, Lizzie actually tries to get the point across that she leaned down and kissed Andrew's putrefying flesh.  Can you imagine the smell?  Ick!   Perhaps thats where the idea came from to have floral arrangements at wakes, to drown out the noxious smells of corrupting bodies.  I'm wondering at this point if the undertaker didn't at least drain the blood from the bodies?  Sorry for getting grisly here, but, dead bodies, not embalmed, summer heat, you do the math! 

Your point is interesting, Susan.
But did undertakers do that in the home?  Even if not embalming, draining blood?  Maybe with murder victims they were especially careful Not to do any of that?  They had all heard the word "poison" by then, also.

Wakes take how long?
Is Thursday to Saturday excessive to lie awaiting burial?

I wouldn't think they would use ice in the home, either, for similar reasons as to embalming insitu.  I'm just speculating...I really don't know, and am asking real questions...

If the undertaker didn't start fixing the bodies until Friday NIght wouldn't they be at work pretty late to be ready by ...what...9 a.m.Saturday?

I loved your theory about the flowers vs. smell.
I don't know...maybe Edisto does...she knows incredible things I'd never guess in a million years.
But that really makes some sense! 

After the preliminary autopsies, weren't the bodies removed from the Borden home?  I thought that happened on Friday?  I wonder where we could check for the answer to that?

When I refer to the wake, I'm refering to the service that is held at the Borden home, which was the morning just before the never to happen burial.  Last wake I was to lasted 2 days, just enough time to let out of town people to get there and say their good-byes to the deceased.

I wonder if the bodies were at least washed down with some sort of antibacterial agent? 

PRELIMINARY,  Winwood (Undertaker) pg. 386+

Q.  Did you at any time receive permission from Dr. Dolan to bury the bodies?
A.  Well, he delivered the bodies to me.
Q.  When?
A.  That afternoon, about half past five.
Q.  For burial?
A.  I presume it was for burial; there was not anything said about what it was for.
Q.  What did he say when he delivered them to you?
A.  Dr. Tourtellot asked me if Dr. Dolan had given me charge of the bodies. I said no. The Doctor came along a few minutes afterwards, I said to him "are you through with the bodies?"
Q.  You said to whom?
A.  Dr. Dolan.
Q.  Said what?
A.  I asked him if he had finished, if he was through with the bodies?
Q.  What did he say?
A.  He said, "yes, you may take them now."
Q.  Anything else?
A.  That is all.
Q.  Now when was that?
A.  Well, I should think it was about half past five.
Q.  What day?
A.  The day of the murder.
Q.  August 4th?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you have any communication from him after that in regard to the burial of the bodies?
A.  I did the morning of the funeral.
Q.  What day was that?
A.  Saturday.
Q.  When Saturday?
A.  One of my assistants came to Mr. Borden's house, I should think after nine o'clock, perhaps half past nine.
Q.  Saturday, somewhere about nine o'clock?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  What were you notified then?
A.  I was notified not to bury them.
Q.  But between the time of having the bodies turned over to you by Dr. Dolan, and nine o'clock Saturday morning, had you proceeded to prepare the bodies for burial?
A.  I had.
Q.  And were they all prepared for burial?
A.  They were.
Q.  Do you know whether Dr. Dolan knew that you were preparing them for burial?
A.  I do not know.
Q.  Did you see him up in the house there, while you were engaged in it?
A.  The only time I saw him, I went in with him on Friday night.
Q.  Went in with him where?
A.  Into the room where the bodies were.
Q.  Were they then in the caskets?
A.  No. They were on boards; they were not prepared then
Q.  Was anything said about burying them then?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  He did not notify you not to bury them?
A.  No Sir.

Thanks, Kat!  As I've stated before, I don't have the Preliminary, so any info you can throw my way from it is greatly appreciated!

Unfortunately, Winwood doesn't go into great detail as to what sort of preparations he did to the bodies in order to ready them for burial.  I wonder if it was just to make them look good for the wake?  You know, wash and comb their hair, put on some mortician's make-up, etc., that sort of thing. 

Yes, indeedy, undertakers did "do that" in the home.  In fact, they still do!  If you recall, when Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis died, her remains were never removed from her apartment until time for the funeral.  A mortician was summoned and took care of the embalming right there.  (I recall discussing this with my son, Terence, and he showed me an article on the subject.  People named Terence are great at researching obscure topics!)  Sometimes at auction I see portable embalming kits, which were very common in the 1800s.  They're quite popular with collectors, although they might be a rather dangerous collectible, given the toxic nature of the embalming fluid.

Well, I'll be Andrew's Uncle, once again!
(Laddy?)

Do you suppose they would be embalmed Friday Night, if they were thought to be *going in the ground* in a few hours?
Do you think the embalming would more likely be done so the corpse would last longer BEFORE burial, meaning IF they were going to do that at all, they would have done it Thursday eve. after Dolan "released" the bodies to the undertaker...

Or did they embalm so a BURIED body didn't decompose right away, and the survivors could then picture their dead as they wished to see them in life?

I've wondered if Abby and Andrew were embalmed at all, even though I know it's possible for that to be done in the home.  After all, their bodies seemed to be in a state of decomposition at the time of the second autopsy.  The wounds had been distorted by swelling, and the brains had liquified.  I guess it's possible the authorities forbade embalming, realizing they might need to do further forensic work.  Kinda yucky to think about in that August heat.  For myself, I've never been able to understand the custom (which is all too prevalent among my own kin) of embalming a body, putting a lot of makeup and fine raiment on the corpse, and setting it out on display.  Who're we kidding?   That sucker is still dead.  I prefer to just have the person disappear.  In fact, there are some people I'd just as soon see disappear while they're still alive.  IMHO, we have some nerve to call other cultures "primitive."

At that LINK Susan supplied, they seem to be aware of and are now cautioning the public as to the use of arsenic in the embalming process of yester-year.

In the Victorian Vistas book (pt.ll) there is an add, pg. 101 for "Fall River Catholic Cemeteries" touting the wonderful location on "Stafford Road, and extends from this street to the shores of the South Watuppa pond.  It is one of the best appointed cemeteries in the city, and is under the charge of the several pastors..."

That means all that arsenic could leach into that pond.  Hell's Bells!

As an aside, it gives the terms and pricing schedules... 1893:
"Opening of a grave for adults            $2.00
Opening of a grave for children over 12 years       $2.00
Opening of a grave for children under 12 years    $1.50"

--When they say opening a grave, I believe they mean digging one.

I once read a review of a historical work about a pair of sisters who lived in the mid 19th century. Daughters of a minister, they lived in a house surrounded by a graveyard. The author mentioned that their well in the graveyard might have been responsible for their many ailments. No mention about arsenic leaching from dead bodies; the effluvium from decayed bodies might be enough? [Know who I mean?]

Maybe that's why they use concrete coffin holders today?

Rays, to whom do you refer?  Your post has piqued my curiosity!  I have to wonder about the present day dangers of formaldehyde leaching into the soil and water system.  While not as deadly as arsenic, I'm sure it can't be good to have something like that in your drinking water. 

I'm sorry, but I don't remember their names (from the mid 1970s?).
One or both wrote literature; a pair of 19th century English ladies.

I thought SO!
That's the Bronte sisters!

It does sound like the Brontes, but of course there were three of them (Anne, Charlotte and Emily).  That makes one more person to be poisoned by the arsenic leached out of the cemetery.  Yuck!  They lived near the cemetery and called themselves "Bell" (Acton, Currer and Ellis).  The Bell tolls for thee...

Isn't there a dear brother, too?
I left out a sister because he left out a brother...

Thanks for the info, Kat and Edisto.  I had no clue as to who Rays was refering to! 

That brother's name has been alluding me so I went looking.
The Bronte's were :
Maria and Elizabeth (who died young), Emily, Charlotte, Patrick Branville, and Anne.
I recall the sisters being overly solicitous of their brother and I  have had the impression that he was brooding and with delicate health.  I remembered them calling him "Branville".

O.K., Harry, here's one for you...
This is one of those interesting, meandering threads that started out with Lizzie's Pail & Stool from the FRHS and ended up......

First we have Augusta's daughter posing as if in JAIL  ("You know you are a Bordenite, when...")
Orange Sherbert
Tripe
Gallbladder stones
Lizzie's cell decor in Taunton jail
pears
Crackerjacks  (had any lately?  They're NOT just for drive-ins, anymore...)
Gossip from the CASEBOOK
Vida Turner
Lizzie's funeral
Unburied bodies in June
Bodies On Ice (NOT a musical extravaganza by reigning Olympians)
Embalming in the home( for Fun and Profit)
Price list to dig a grave in 1893
Arsenic in the embalming process
Health Risks of arsenic in the enviornment
The Bronte Family

We're multi-talented!




(Message last edited Jul-25th-02  3:50 AM.)

Kat, I realize that you were posting this for Harry, but, I went through the whole thread again and its great!  We've learned so much and covered so much ground! 

YES! You jogged my aging fading memory.

I'm not much into "literature", there's enough fiction in the facts of history for me. Or newspapers, etc.

Note that there are plenty of places in America with high natural levels of arsenic.  I read where Bangladesh (?) is notorious for this.

Yes, I too have read similar stories to the effect that there are areas where arsenic occurs naturally in the ground.  I think there are even a few cases in the past of arsenic poisonings where it was suspected that there was foul play, but, perhaps the family's well had arsenic leaching into it or such.