1. "Soup, Stew, or Broth?"
Posted by redfern on Dec-9th-02 at 4:24 PM

I have been going over several things about the mutton. (mainly just looking at recipes for it.) And it seems that depending on who's telling it, it was either Mutton broth, stew, or soup. Can anyone clear this up? I did find a recipe called Irish Stew, and it seems to contain nothing more then the neck and such for stew flavoring. Most of the soups ask for the fatty parts. And the broth would have simply been where it was boiled, and no real Mutton in there, just more flavoring.
  Was it Irish Stew and they called it soup, because it was soupy. Was it broth of Mutton? If so I think it might have been harder to do the poison unknoticed, because after you boil the Mutton, you would end up straining all the extra pieces out of the broth. I know being as frugal as they were, they tried to make sure food was used until it was unable to be used anymore. So I am just curious as to what exactly they ate, and that way giving a clearer picture too, on how it could have possibly been poisoned.
   RedFern

Redfern, found this:

From Bridget's trial testimony, page 220

Q.  Now, will you tell us what there was for breakfast that morning?
A.  There was some mutton, some broth and johnny cakes, coffee and cookies.
Q.  The broth was made of what?
A.  Mutton.
Q.  It was mutton broth and meat itself, mutton?
A.  Yes, sir.

In the Preliminary, page 26, Bridget testifies to what they were to have for dinner that day:

Q.  Do you know what the dinner was that day?
A.  Yes Sir, some soup to warm over, and some cold mutton.
Q.  Potatoes?
A.  No Sir; potatoes in the soup.
Q.  Had you put the soup on when you went up stairs?
A.  No Sir.

In this case is the broth the same as the soup? 

(Edit)  Morse, the only other one who could testify, could not remember what they had for breakfast either at the the Inquest or Preliminary.  His memory improved greatly at the trial but he still sheds no light on the soup/broth.

(Message last edited Dec-9th-02  5:54 PM.)

From the Mirriam-Webster dictionary; Broth: Liquid in which meat or sometimes vegetable food has been cooked.

Perhaps the mutton was boiled instead of roasted?  That would account for the mutton broth then.  I'm thinking there is a New England boiled dinner, I've heard of it, never had it though.

It sounded as though Bridget was preparing to make the broth into some sort of soup with the addition of potatoes and possibly some of the sliced meat, though I guess we will never know 100% sure.

The only other thing I can think of is that perhaps what Bridget was refering to as broth was in reality already some sort of soup? 

Well thanks to you, Harry, we have the trial on disc and can find the stomachs and let them speak for themselves!

Trial
Dr. Ed. Wood
Pg. 991+
[Mrs. Borden's stomach]
"The contents of the stomach were then examined and their quantity noted to be about eleven ounces. It was of semi solid consistency, consisting of at least four fifths solid food and not more than one fifth---and I should say probably not more than one tenth---of liquid or water. 
And upon examination of these contents of the stomach, I found them to consist of partially digested starch, like wheat starch such as would be found in bread or cake or any other food in the making of which wheat flour is used. There was also a large quantity of partially digested meat, muscular fibre, with the food, and a considerable quantity of oil and some pieces of bread or cake. Some of the pieces of meat were quite sizable pieces, as large for instance a whole pea, and one or two pieces were larger than that,---as large as the end of my forefinger, so that their nature was very readily determined.  In addition to this there were a large number of vegetable pulp cells which resembled those of some fruit, or a pulpy vegetable such as boiled potato, or an apple or pear, and there was also an undigested skin of a vegetable or of a fruit, one piece of which I have removed and have there. (Indicating something held in the hand). It looks like the red skin of an apple or pear.

Q.  That came from the stomach?
A.  Yes, sir, of Mrs. Borden. ........

--[EEEwww...he's got a piece of fruit skin from Abby's Stomach in his HAND!]

[Mr. Borden's stomach]:
..."The character of the food found in the stomach of Mr. Borden differed from that in the stomach of Mrs. Borden in that there was very much less of it, and that it consisted mostly of water and contained only a very small quantity of solid food.  The quantity in the stomach was about six fluid ounces, consisting of about nine-tenths water and one-tenth sold food, which contained the same constituents in kind as was found in the stomach of Mrs. Borden,---that is some few wheat starch granules, a few voluntary muscular fibres, a little oil; and a great deal compared with the whole bulk of solid food consisted of vegetable pulp cells and of some vegetable tissue cells such as might have come from the skin of an apple or pear. I think I mentioned the total quantity was about six ounces."

--Sounds like lean Andrew stocked up on pears that morning with his bit of breakfast.

Prelim.
Bridget
pg. 53+
[As to dinner Wednesday night]:
Q.  What did you have for dinner?
A.  Mutton soup and mutton boiled.

Q.  Was it mutton soup or a mutton stew, or a thick soup?
A.  Soup.

Q.  Were they all there to dinner?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  Mr. Morse came about half past one, and he had his dinner alone?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  What did you have for supper?
A.  Some soup warmed over.

Q.  This same soup warmed over?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  Whatelse?
A.  Some bread, and cake and cookies, and tea.

Q.  Where they all there to supper.
A.  Mrs. Borden, Miss Lizzie and Mr. Borden.
----
Checked Rebello and he says, pg. 91 & 92:

John Morse's testimony. (Trial: 133)

Can you tell what there was for breakfast?
Well, we had some mutton, had some bread, coffee, cakes and c. (cookies?)
What sort of cake, what material?
Well, made of sugar, sugar cakes.
Do you recall anything else except those articles you have named?
Fruit on the table.
What sort of fruit?
Bananas.

And at Inquest
John Morse's Inquest Testimony. (Inquest: 101)

Can you remember what you had for breakfast?
I don't know as I do know. I know what we had the day before for dinner.
What did they have the day before for dinner?
Some veal, sort of soup like.
That would not warm over for breakfast then?
I could not tell what they had.
Did they have some kind of meat?
I think some kind.
Do you remember whether they had some sort of fruit, apples, pears or bananas?
There was bananas on the table.

--He can't describe within a week [at Inquest] what was for breakfast Thursday morning, yet almost a year later he CAN?








(Message last edited Dec-10th-02  2:59 AM.)

Thanks, Kat.  Shame on me for not looking in the Preliminary, especially since I just downloaded it into my computer!  So, it was soup and Bridget was just refering to it as broth and the mutton was boiled!  Pretty good supposing on my part. 

Harry first pointed us toward Bridget and the Prelim.  I checked Rebello becauseI knew he had a bit in there about the menus.
I had done some of that for the Museum/Library, too.

Rebello gave the extra page references to Bridget, deeper into her testimony, after Harry posted that info.
Kind of like a cross-reference.

I'm glad you liked the soup.

BTW:  I wonder what constituted the "quantity of oil" found in Mrs. Borden's stomach?  Butter on her bread?
I thought maybe she was still taking the castor oil w/ port wine that Bowen suggested Wednesday morning.  But oil was also found in Andrew's stomach.  ??
(Inq., 116, Bowen)

(Message last edited Dec-10th-02  4:13 AM.)

I found something interesting while perusing the Police Witness Statements section.  Unfortunately, I don't have time to quote it here.  When asked what was for dinner that day (August 4), Bridget describes this same menu--yet again.  Yet Lizzie testifies that Mrs. Borden had asked her (Lizzie), "What (she) would like for dinner...What kind of meat?"  Lizzie says she replied, "Not anything."  Sounds like Lizzie was saying that Mrs. Borden was preparing to go out shopping.  Supposedly, Bridget did not see Mrs. Borden after she was dusting the dining room.  When, then, would Mrs. Borden have had time to tell Bridget not to fix the old leftovers but rather prepare to cook something else, if she were really going to go shopping?  That is, why would Bridget think that she should prepare the same stuff if she was under the impression that Mrs. B had a note, was going to go out, and would buy new food?  There would have been no time and no opportunity for her to learn otherwise (for example, if her plans had changed. I hope I haven't been too confusing.  Why wouldn't Bridget have said, "Mrs. B had a note, was going out, and we would fix dinner with what she would bring home?"  Sounds to me like the conversation Lizzie reports between herself and Mrs. B. never took place.
Also, re: the contents of the stomachs at autopsy--How could they have had so much stuff in there if they had been vomiting (and perhaps also had diarrhea?) 

Wow, that's something I wouldn't have thought. How could they have had so much and been vomiting? That is a great question. can't wait to see what replies come from that one. But maybe just thinking about it.... They had been sick, but ate basically the same thing for breakfast. Abby, Lizzie, and Andrew were getting over being sick, yet Bridget was just starting to get sick. So maybe that would explain them having something on their stomachs, just a guess though.
  RedFern

The contents of their stomachs was what they had had for breakfast that morning. There is no record of either of them vomiting between breakfast and their demise.

Abby must have been feeling better as she was dusting and then went upstairs to straighten the guest room.  Surely there was no rush to do either of these.

They were vomiting Tuesday around mid-night, into Wednesday early morning.
Wednesday Abby sought out Dr. Bowen.  was told to take castor oil with port wine to disguise the taste.  We don't know that she did take this, but Lizzie says that they had given Garfield tea to Andrew Wednesday, and he refused a ride to Swansea with Morse that day...his recuperation day?
By Thursday, he was willing to go to the post office to deliver a letter to Emma from Lizzie, which may have been the catalyst to get him to go downtown on his usual routine even if he still maybe not felt 100% well.  We have also, in the past, surmised that he got his newspaper at the P,O, so that might be more incentive for him to go out that morning.

I was just reading what you were referring to   last night, in Dr. Masterton.  Where Lizzie goes back over everything Abby said to her last she saw her, and included the information that Abby was to get the meat.  [that was a good question of yours]
I always thought maybe Abby would be getting the meat for the next day, not necessarily the next meal.  I only thought that because, as you are making known, we never have heard this questioned before...I figured I missed something somewhere, or somebody did.  "Get the meat.  Order the meat" is the phrase Lizzie added which had me thinking this.
Anyway, Bridget didn't know Abby was to go out, obviously.  She says so in her testimony--"She usually tells me."
But what did Bridget think Mrs. Borden was DOING from 9 A.M. until 10:40 when Lizzie told the note story (and was overheard by Bridget.
Maybe that's why Lizzie first told the note story *slowly / lowly* to Andrew, hoping Bridget would not hear.  But since Bridget heard That Lizzie had to not only stick to that story but  felt she needed to embellish it.
Think of the repercussions if Bridget Never Over- Heard That Abby-had-a-note story!

(Message last edited Dec-11th-02  1:13 AM.)

I don't know if "Irish stew" is like "Hobo stew", made up of leftovers (or Welsh rabbit)? REAL bread probably gave people then most of their carbohydrates and protein, and fiber. But about that time the steel mills produced unreal bread (husk, germ, etc removed) and dietitic diseases (pellagra, tuberculosis) became rampant. Or maybe due to adulterated manufactured foods?
"History Today" had a recent article on the "bread and jam" food in the late 19th century for factory workers; the "fast food" of the day.

Even today, almost as I speak, somebody is boiling beef brisket to cook, and saving the broth for flavoring and food (bits of meat etc.).
You are making me hungry!!!

The vomiting was on Wednesday, not Thursday morning. Afterwards, they should have a good appetite for breakfast Thursday.

The difference in the digestion of food is a marker for different times of death, having eaten at the same time.

Remember C Dicken's "Christmas Carl"? Scrooge tells the boy to buy the fat turkey (and take it to the baker to cook it?). One magazine said it was very common for bakers to cook meats for customers; they made extra money that way. And I would imagine or expect Abby to do this on one of the hottest day of the year! So no extra work for Bridget, if she also had an afternoon off?

[If Bridget was outside washing windows, then Abby would not have a chance to tell her where she was going UNTIL she left the house. So Bridget would never hear the story.]


(Message last edited Dec-11th-02  12:32 PM.)

Mutton soup hot
Mutton soup cold
Mutton soup in the pot, 5 days old
Some like it hot and some like it cold
Some like it in the pot, 5 days old.

Sorry, couldn't resist. 

LMAO, you know, I was kinda thinkin the same thing, hehehehe!
  RedFern

Well the Irish stew recipe I found called for Mutton parts, mostly like leftovers and such. Boiled together with potatoes, onions, etc. So yeah, kinda like hobo stew in a way.
  RedFern

Use it up, wear it out,
make do, or do without.

Practical advice then, or now (Bush Depression).

NO politics please.

hahaha.  that's good.  i like it!

Glad you like it!  That mutton soup had been in the ice box, and on the stove and they had it for like 5 days running, its so fitting, I thought.  I think I would have been like Lizzie, after the third day I would pass on all things mutton. 

That poem was really fun, Susan.  Could the Borden's have had mutton punch for Christmas? I wonder if the Borden's ever went in for something like chocolate?  

I bet Lizzie kept a stash of Baby Ruths in her bedroom and that's why she kept the door locked!
She had to fortify herself with something as she didn't seem to eat very often at the dining table!
If she was anything like me, she would recline on her lounge and eat chocolate and read Dickens.  (Except I don't read Dickens...maybe Trollope)

Aside from the fact that "Baby Ruth" did not exist at that time, did any candy bars as we know them exist at that time? I doubt it?
Don't forget that BIG national corporations that catered to consumers was still new. Kelloggs may be one.

Kimberly, do you know where our famous food list is?
The one that says when Cracker Jack was invented?

OOO  I found it.
"When Did Lizzie Eat?"

Anyway, Baby Ruth's were first around in 1920.
You're keeping me on my toes!

How about Lizzie in her room with Tootsie Rolls & Cracker Jack?


(Message last edited Dec-16th-02  9:43 PM.)

Thanks, Carol.  Just so everyone knows, thats just my version of the Mother Goose rhyme, Pease porridge hot....Don't want to take credit where it is not fully due!

Kat, do you suppose that Lizzie may have eaten later as she had stated to Mrs. Gifford during cloak fitting and didn't mention it as it might look detrimental to her during the trial?  Or, that perhaps she went out to eat in Fall River somewhere, she seemed to leave the house quite abit.  I would think that Fall River was big enough at the time to have one of those dining rooms for ladies only, the ones without chaperones or escorts. 

I don't really know and somehow I can't imagine.
Lil' Abby said our Abby cooked mince pie and brought it to their house...she implied that Abby did bring good things to eat over there to Fourth Street.  Cooked by Abby.
So there are many permutations for me in looking at this question.  Maybe ABBY was a good cook and they ate that when she did cook.  Maybe they just didn't like Bridget's cooking.  Maybe Lizzie wasn't allowed at table because of surliness and she used the reason of getting up late to save face. Maybe she was perpetually dieting, or maybe she did like to eat out.

I tell you what, tho, when I read about her cloak I started to wonder if her cloak was accounted for in the clothes inventory Emmer made for the court.  Gossamers were asked about, but maybe, since it was summer, no one thought to ask Lizzie where her cloak was?

Yes, you could be on to something, Lizzie does have a way of telling things her way, which doesn't quite jibe with the truth.  Maybe she wasn't allowed to sit down to meals with Andrew and Abby due to her making each meal an unpleasant one? 

I recalled that long ago I had read about Mrs. Gifford making cloaks, but, nothing in the trial about the police searching for cloaks, unless it was the gossamer or American cloth.

BTW, Baby Ruth was named after Grover Cleveland's daughter, Ruth. 

She said she made it in April I believe.
And that Lizzie had to come to her house.
So apparently Abby and Lizzie that we know of, renewed their wardrobes in the spring just previous to the murders.
Maybe there was just one more dress or outfit also not accounted for.  I'm still wondering about that cloak, tho. I guess I'll look around.
(PS:  I used to have a wool cloak.  It was a nurses cloak, standard dark blue outside and bright red inside.  It was very waterproof, considering it was not raingear.  VERY utilitarian.  Great coverage.  Mine was about mid-thigh length.  I'm sure they come in other lengths.)

(Message last edited Dec-17th-02  10:31 PM.)