1. "The Proceedings Book"
Posted by augusta on Mar-23rd-03 at 10:57 AM

The Proceedings Book, edited by Jules Ryckebush (sp?) that was the result of the papers read from Borden students/scholars at the 1992 100th anniversary of the Borden murders is out of print.

However, it is still readily available thru the FRHS for $30. 

Frequently, it comes up for sale on Amazon.com as a "used" book.  The price the sellers on there ask is astronomical - and they are selling!  Today they offer one for $299.95. 

It is "out of print".  But it is not "unavailable". 

This is a really good book, hardcover, and once the stock is out at the FRHS and possibly the B & B as well, it probably will be unavailable.  The book is an important addition to any Bordenite's library as a reference, good reading and probably as an investment in a collectible as well. Just a tip to get a copy now thru the historical society if you don't already have one.  (I am not in any way affiliated with the FRHS, the B & B or Amazon.com)

I showed my son and daughter-in-law this post today, to tell
them the hypothetical "if anything happens to me"..Don't just
ditch all my Lizzie books and papers!  and my daughter-in-law
says "and where do you keep the ax"?  very funny...(?)

Don't fall asleep on the sofa or clean up the guest room Nancie! 

Ha ha Harry, I won't!

I thought disgruntled wives liked to keep their axe in the back of their husband's head?

That was a good idea, Nancie.  This incident also reminds me to buy a Lizzie book I want right away and not wait on it before they're all gone.  (Like I did with the "Knowlton Papers".)

Yes, I am tempted to buy one of those Lizzie dolls on ebay,
I really want one!  I'm too cheap to pay $100 for what probably
sold for $8.99.  Maybe I will have a crazy spell like Lizzie
and just DO IT!

What is it with those "Lizzie" dolls?  They're terrible!  Just a doll with her name on the box.  Why are they selling like they are?  I find it hard to believe anyone would pay $100 for one of those.  Now if they were well done and actually looked something like her, it'd be different.  I wouldn't think they'd be worth anything later on.  I hope you resist the urge, Nancie.  The watch is even better than those dolls.

I hope I haven't offended anyone who's bought one!  If someone has one, I'd like to hear what they like about them.

These dolls?
I only ever first knew about them a year ago.
And I know naught about dolls.





(Message last edited Mar-26th-03  3:23 AM.)

I'm both an avid doll collector and a Borden-case fan, but those dolls don't interest me at all.  I think (from what I see on eBay) that they've had several incarnations.  All of them seem to be the same basic doll with various changes in the haircolor and costumes.  The first ones I saw had Lizzie as a schoolteacher (a myth about Lizzie that's fairly often encountered).  Most certainly the dolls are cheap looking (not worth nearly the money being asked for them) and have nothing whatever to do with Lizzie Borden.  I'd put them in the same class as those Beanie Babies that were supposed to be so collectible and valuable a few years ago.  For the most part, things that were manufactured as collectibles won't increase in value.

I had heard that about collecting too---that if an item is produced with the word collectable on it, or in the ad for example, then it isn't. Is that what you mean?

Commemorative items, on the other hand, are worth a bunch because they only come out once to honor a certain time or person. Since they cease making the item after such a short time, they have value, and a date, which adds to their unique quality.

I noticed something recently, and maybe it is not as odd as I think it is?
In Proceedings, there is a fine essay entitled "They Would Like To Have Been Cultured Girls:  An Analysis of the Testimony of Alice Russel During the Prosecution of Lizzie Borden" (WHEW!), by Robert T. Johnson, Jr. 
It is one of the best articles I've read that delves into a single character.  The aticle's date is not listed but the book was published in 1993.
The first page, 225, states: ... "Many students of the Borden murders think of Alice as the turncoat friend of Lizzie Borden who testified against her..."  [emphasis mine]

Until the Fall River Historical Society Quarterly Report, Summer, 2002, wherein there is an article, pg. 4, "On Miss Borden", "Lizzie's Turncoat Friend", featuring a rare photo of an elderly Alice Russell, I had never heard this phrase used against Alice in a description.

I'm trying to figure out if Mr. Johnson had access to this Frank B. Hadley who donated the photo to the FRHS, "recently", or if anyone has a newspaper reference to this moniker from before 1993?

(Message last edited Mar-27th-03  3:23 AM.)

You're right about commemorative items being easy to tie to a date and/or person.  That doesn't necessarily make them valuable, though.
If huge numbers were produced, and if the item itself is fairly sturdy, it probably won't increase hugely in value, because it'll continue to be easy to find, and there's no rarity factor.  An example of this is that of commemorative items featuring England's King Edward VIII.  These were manufactured (and sold) in fairly large numbers as coronation souvenirs, but he abdicated before that event took place.  Manufacture was probably curtailed when he abdicated.  His souvenirs are therefore more highly prized than souvenirs from his brother's later coronation.  In the field of dolls (my specialty), a doll that becomes valuable is often one that wasn't hugely popular when originally manufactured and therefore was made in small quantities.  One example is the Mme. Alexander "Coco" doll made in the sixties.  Not only was it terribly expensive when originally offered, but it was awkwardly designed to look as if it has little or no neck.  It was issued for one year only, and so few were made that it has become one of the hardest to find and most expensive of the Alexander dolls.

Good question, Kat.  I'll take "Alice Russell for just $100, Alex,"...  Maybe "turncoat friend" was a popular expression of the day?  (You asked "Alice Russell for $500".)

The first few sets of McDonald's beanie babies sold for over $100 right after they were done selling at McDonald's, as did the second set.  They were selling them on one of the shopping channels, I remember.

I was collecting Gone with the Wind plates.  Geez, they're selling on eBay now for like ten bucks.  Looks like much of the GWTW stuff has decreased in value. 

The Simpsons stuff is said to be the new hottest thing to collect, according to one of those antique road show things.

What else can we look for, Edisto??  

Anybody else heard that phrase?

That Proceedings book has got the 2 best articles.  The one I mentioned and the "Hip-bath Collection", by former FRHS President, Barbara Ashton, now deceased.  Apparently Radin & de Mille both also had access to Jennings collection while researching their books.

Does anyone think the "incest theories" prevalent in the 1990's and well-represented in the first part of this book, are still viable, or outdated?

I've just noticed a bridge between the Proceedings book and Len Rebello's Past & Present:

Robert T. Johnson, Jr., of "turncoat friend" phrase fame, wrote the Introduction to Rebello's work, in March, 1998.

I don't think the phrase appears in the text, though.

Mr. Johnson says he is a corporate lawyer in Chicago and met "Len" at the 1992 Lizzie Borden Conference.  Of course, I assume Johnson's paper on Alice Russell was already written, to be given at the Conference, and to be included in the Proceedings book..

Anyway,Johnson does say he stayed friends and has "spent countless hours with him."

It doesn't solve the mystery of the phrase but it's an interesting connection...

I'd say the "incest" theories are just personal fantasies that reflect badly on anyone who says this. Because very rich Andy would have his pick among any woman who was late with the rent. Just how did he do his cousin's wife? Drinking together or what? Too bad AR Brown didn't publish more.
Does anyone from Fall River know of any stories?

I had stopped reading "The Proceedings" book for a while because the first part is all on incest, and it does get boring after you've read one.  You can't prove it at all.  It has no basis in fact whatsoever.  Okay, so Lizzie acted a certain way.  Big deal.  They had locks on the doors.  Who knows??  I don't believe all of the interior doors were always locked.  It would be far too much of a hassle - no way would they live like that.  The bedrooms, yeah.  But all the rest?  Uh uh.  I can't believe that. 

What really bothers me about the incest theory, besides it being so non-provable, is that they are using a family from the New England Victorian era and comparing them with modern-day statistics.  People were a lot different then.

Andrew didn't just quit with the one wife.  He got re-married.  Which probably meant he liked grown women.  Believe it or not, he had sex with Sarah Borden at least three times. 

He loved his daughters, as shown thru different (rare) sources.  But there isn't anything out of the way that we know of.

And Ray is right - he could have had his way with late rent payers, too.  I kinda doubt it - he didn't even socialize with the mens' clubs and seemed to go the extra mile to give off an aura of respectability.  But he did have that option. 

I think it was interesting to look at maybe once.  But I think it's terribly convenient since it is even less provable than any other theory. 

About my opinion of Andy and collecting rent.
Years ago I worked with someone who told me a story about his teenage years. He delivered groceries, and one young woman offered to do him in lieu of the payment. He refused, and reported it to his boss. The boss only asked "was she good looking?" That is the story he told. Since he was also untrustworthy (made up stories) I later wondered if this was some self-serving fable.

I don't know if incest was involved but I would not rule it out. If one believes that it was Lizzie, something  must have happened to generate that level of hatred.

Incest has always been around and was no exception in any age. The Victorians wrote some of the most sexually provocative books ever written and I would not let the prudish public facade mislead me.

I'm no medical doctor and have no opinion on whether Lizzie or Emma ever demonstrated classic symptoms.

I guess it is simpler to accuse Andrew of fathering an illegitimate child or taking advantage of poor widows but there is no proof of any of that either.  It might be easier for the accuser however.

The part about incest turns me off also, and it doesn't fit with
Andrew's character. I would sooner believe that Lizzie was an
illigimate child, mothered by another than Sarah. Her features are
nothing like her father's where Emma does rememble her father a bit.
Maybe Lizzie was the child that escaped the drownings in the Cistern,
the age would fit.  Mental Illness would be inherited there!