If Abby Had Only ...

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:07 pm

If Abby had not gone back up to the guest room to put shams on the pillows, where would she have been killed? Would she have been killed? Did she stumble across Andrew's killer's hiding place?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:34 pm

Good question, Augusta.

I have always believed that Abby was a target. It is possible that she found the killer hidding but would a killer come out of hidding at 11:00 to kill Andrew when Abby would have no doubt been present? Either Abby was a pre-planed target or the killer killed Abby to make sure she was not around later when Andrew came home. Fewer witnesses. Then why not take out Lizzie too?

Perhaps Abby did get a note as a means of getting her out of the house. When that failed... After all, Lizzie tried to get Bridgett out of the house with the talk of a fabric sale. It looks like someone tried to get both women out of the house. When Abby stayed she was killed. When Bridgett went up stairs that got her out of the sitting room and that saved her life.

I still believe Lizzie arranged the killings and money was probably the main motive.

-1bigsteve (o:

Ms. Jo · Post by **Ms. Jo** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:52 am

I too believe that Abby was the main target...I also think there was some catalyst that caused the murder to occur , when it happened.For some reason, something happend that caused Abby to be a real threat & could cause a change of lifestyle...Who ever done Abby in, certainly hated her...The motive...probably money( & maybe Abby was soon, or in the future , to get more , than the murderer thought she was entitled to, by the way of moneys or properties )...If Lizzie had hired someone, she would have, had to find someone that, she knew beyond any doubt, that would not talk ,brag, or spill the beans, about the crime later. I think she did it alone...because as we all know a secret is kept by one person only...Once you tell someone, or another person is involved in a crime,that is comitted, people can & will talk ,most of the time..You can only depend on yourself to keep your mouth shut. There may have been people close to her like Bridget, maybe Emma & others that probably strongly suspected that Lizzie was involved, with the crime,but had no iron clad proof...Lizzie kept her mouth shut & was accordingly aquitted. Just my thoughts.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:18 am

That's a good question. I think she was the main target too. I think, too, that she did find the killers hiding place. She had to go because of that. And if it was Lizzie, there were other reasons and being found justified the reason even more for killing Abby.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:53 pm

Everything in my humble opinion, seems to take root in that real estate transaction 5 years before the murder. The Whitehead house on 4th Street sowed the seeds of unrest and alarm regarding the influence Abby might have had on Andrew's disposal of his property. Other readings I have done would indicate that this was not the case- Andrew was his own man when it came to business decisions- but he did seem to want to see to it that his family was provided for.

I also often thought that maybe his assistance in procuring the other half of the old Gray homestead was just a savvy business deal, making over that half house to his wife. In any event, things got nasty after it was done. Andrew would have been smarter to have come clean and told the girls upfront- I bet he knew there would be hell to pay. If the old Ferry Street property had been a nicer property, I wonder if he might have just given it to the two girls to have as their own house! It would have solved a lot of problems. Too bad it was not a more desirable place on the right side of town.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:58 pm

I agree with you, Shelley. I feel the real estate fiasco and Andrew's money was the main reasons for the killings. I think Lizzie was probably thinking about both. She was getting up there in years and probably worried about what would become of her if, or when, Andrew died. Lizzie had no husband, no real job and no cash cow. I can see Lizzie thinking that maybe Abby would get it all or tie-up the case in Probate Court. Why take chances? Bump them both off and Lizzie takes it all.

One sad part of it is that Emma knew Lizzie was the killer and out of loyalty had to keep her mouth shut and live the rest of her life knowing Lizzie was a murderer. That must have been a strain. Of course this is only my theory, just an idea.

-1bigsteve (o:

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:41 pm

The guest room and Abby and Andrew's bedroom were the only rooms in the house where there was no risk of Abby being discovered by Bridget. If the murderer was someone other than Lizzie, being discovered on either the front or back stairway was equally risky. If the murderer was Lizzie, being discovered on the back stairway was a risk. Lizzie had no real reason to use those stairs other than attic access. Lizzie on the front stairs would have raised no question at all.

If Andrew's estate was the motive, killing only Andrew would have been a mistake because Abby would probably have inherited at least a part of it, and quite possibly the majority of it. If Abby was dead, she would not inherit any of it. I think it was a game of keep-away fostered by intense hatred and suspicion. There was no way to know ahead of time who would be where and when, so I think Andrew's murder was a crime of opportunity (with a giggle of recognition from the top of the stairs).

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:13 pm

If that was really Lizzie that giggled on the stairs, with Abby's body in her sight, and her father arriving home about to receive the same thing, she would have had to be insane.......

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:54 pm

If you go by Bridget's first statement to police, she said she heard Lizzie laugh at the top of the stairs after she had difficulty with all the locks on the front door. That sounds possible as her hands might have been wet. Later Bridget says " I don't know where the girl was"- and Lizzie claims she was in the kitchen when Andrew came home. As you can see from the sight line in this photo, Lizzie watching Bridget from the top of the stairs could not see ABby's body behind the bed on the floor.

Lizzie will say also that the guestroom door was closed, when we know it was open for Mrs. Churchill and Bridget to see the body of Abby much later that morning. I always got the impression Lizzie was laughing at a swear word Bridget said when she could not get the door open.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:25 am

Do you see where the bannister railing turns from light to dark, Harry?
That is the section that made me wonder if the whole piece was still original.

Yooper, nice to see you back.
I can direct those of you who are interested to the link where the inheritance laws of the State are reported in the paper of the time, transcribed by me.
It explains that Abby would get not much.
However, we don't know if Lizzie knew that, of course.
She may have had an imperfect knowledge of the laws of inheritance- which seemingly others in Fall River did as well.

viewtopic.php?t=1352&start=0

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:34 am

Boy, these pictures really give me goosebumps. I still get creeped out by the one someone did having Lizzie moving up the stairs. Where can I find that again? I forgot where it is.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:58 am

Look here, Angel. I want to re-do that a little better one of these days.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Diversion/FakeLizzie.htm

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:49 am

That's just too cool!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:25 pm

augusta @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:07 pm wrote:If Abby had not gone back up to the guest room to put shams on the pillows, where would she have been killed? Would she have been killed? Did she stumble across Andrew's killer's hiding place?

NO, she would have suffered no harm if she left to visit a sick friend (based on that missing note and its story).
Arnold Brown mentions that the daughter of William Bassett died later that year, and could have been the sick child used to draw her out (for a very legitimate reason).
"The best laid plans of mice and men go oft astray ..."

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:28 pm

1bigsteve @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:34 pm wrote:Good question, Augusta.

I have always believed that Abby was a target. It is possible that she found the killer hidding but would a killer come out of hidding at 11:00 to kill Andrew when Abby would have no doubt been present? Either Abby was a pre-planed target or the killer killed Abby to make sure she was not around later when Andrew came home. Fewer witnesses. Then why not take out Lizzie too?

Perhaps Abby did get a note as a means of getting her out of the house. When that failed... After all, Lizzie tried to get Bridgett out of the house with the talk of a fabric sale. It looks like someone tried to get both women out of the house. When Abby stayed she was killed. When Bridgett went up stairs that got her out of the sitting room and that saved her life.

I still believe Lizzie arranged the killings and money was probably the main motive.

-1bigsteve (o:

Sherlock Holmes and Perry Mason said the same thing about circumstantial evidence: it points both ways.
I interpret the above as meaning Lizzie was trying to get privacy for Andy's meeting with his nephew over a business deal. Then she left because she did not want to witness any controversy.
Isn't this often true today in family gatherings?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:32 pm

Ms. Jo @ Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:52 am wrote:I too believe that Abby was the main target...I also think there was some catalyst that caused the murder to occur , when it happened.For some reason, something happend that caused Abby to be a real threat & could cause a change of lifestyle...Who ever done Abby in, certainly hated her...The motive...probably money( & maybe Abby was soon, or in the future , to get more , than the murderer thought she was entitled to, by the way of moneys or properties )...If Lizzie had hired someone, she would have, had to find someone that, she knew beyond any doubt, that would not talk ,brag, or spill the beans, about the crime later. I think she did it alone...because as we all know a secret is kept by one person only...Once you tell someone, or another person is involved in a crime,that is comitted, people can & will talk ,most of the time..You can only depend on yourself to keep your mouth shut. There may have been people close to her like Bridget, maybe Emma & others that probably strongly suspected that Lizzie was involved, with the crime,but had no iron clad proof...Lizzie kept her mouth shut & was accordingly aquitted. Just my thoughts.

I do not agree. Whoever killed Abby would also have to also kill Andy.

Lizzie's arranged trial and verdict says the Ruling Class of Fall River went along with this cover-up. Were they just glad to be rid of Andy, and Abby was collateral damage?
Arnold Brown suggests the absence of Emma meant she knew of this meeting and didn't want to be there.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:34 pm

Shelley @ Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:53 pm wrote:Everything in my humble opinion, seems to take root in that real estate transaction 5 years before the murder. The Whitehead house on 4th Street sowed the seeds of unrest and alarm regarding the influence Abby might have had on Andrew's disposal of his property. Other readings I have done would indicate that this was not the case- Andrew was his own man when it came to business decisions- but he did seem to want to see to it that his family was provided for.

I also often thought that maybe his assistance in procuring the other half of the old Gray homestead was just a savvy business deal, making over that half house to his wife. In any event, things got nasty after it was done. Andrew would have been smarter to have come clean and told the girls upfront- I bet he knew there would be hell to pay. If the old Ferry Street property had been a nicer property, I wonder if he might have just given it to the two girls to have as their own house! It would have solved a lot of problems. Too bad it was not a more desirable place on the right side of town.

But a real estate transaction 5 years earlier was too distant for a motive. Andy did give his daughers a comparable value house. He later paid $5,000 to buy it back!
We can never know for sure.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:38 pm

Shelley @ Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:54 pm wrote:If you go by Bridget's first statement to police, she said she heard Lizzie laugh at the top of the stairs after she had difficulty with all the locks on the front door. That sounds possible as her hands might have been wet. Later Bridget says " I don't know where the girl was"- and Lizzie claims she was in the kitchen when Andrew came home. As you can see from the sight line in this photo, Lizzie watching Bridget from the top of the stairs could not see ABby's body behind the bed on the floor.

Lizzie will say also that the guestroom door was closed, when we know it was open for Mrs. Churchill and Bridget to see the body of Abby much later that morning. I always got the impression Lizzie was laughing at a swear word Bridget said when she could not get the door open.
[img]
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m155 ... /pshaw.jpg[/img]

The very simple explanation was that the door was closed when Lizzie went up as the occupant wanted his privacy. Later when he left the room the door was left open. No need for any concealment!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:41 pm

An even simpler explanation is that it was always open.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:43 pm

The real estate transaction 5 years before was not the motive- nor did I say it was. It was the beginning of the distrust and escalating tension between Lizzie, Emma and Abby. You may recall that is a very significant date and event when Lizzie
stopped calling Abby "Mother" and began calling her "Mrs. Borden"- which speaks volumes to anyone who would listen.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:49 pm

Shelley @ Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:41 pm wrote:An even simpler explanation is that it was always open.

You are assuming this in contradiction of the testimony.
Don't we live in a world that is constantly changing?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:54 pm

Shelley @ Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:43 pm wrote:The real estate transaction 5 years before was not the motive- nor did I say it was. It was the beginning of the untrust and escalating tension between Lizzie, Emma and Abby. You may recall that is a very significant date and event when Lizzie
stopped calling Abby "Mother" and began calling her "Mrs. Borden"- which speaks volumes to anyone who would listen.

But didn't Emma testify that she was the one who set the example for Lizzie in not regarding Abby as mother? Lizzie basically never knew her mother.
There was a letter in the newspaper last week, about a "Black Widow". This person was romancing the writer's father. She had did this once before and drained the fortune before the man's death. Is this unusual then or now?
One local minister was in trouble because he convinced an elderly widow to spend hundreds of thousands on investments for his family business and repairs to church property.

Are some of you ignorant of how this wicked world works?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:56 pm

Who knows if the door was open or shut? We are assuming that all people were telling the truth in their testimonies? The easiest solution is that maybe it was always open. Frankly, if I were Lizzie and had done it, I too would have sworn it was shut. Clearly it was open for the discovery of the body by Churchill and Bridget. And in the end- it hardly makes a whit of difference one way or another as the body cannot be seen with the door open unless you are coming up the stairs or lay down on the floor in front of the dress closet and purposely look under the bed.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:05 pm

The POINT here, and I am not sure how the "Black Widow" story relates to anything being discussed on this thread, is simple. For 22 years 1865-1887, Lizzie- who knew no other mother , called Abby Borden "Mother". She ceased doing so after the real estate transaction. This is fact. This is also Lizzie's own testimony. Emma always called her Mrs. Borden. I believe it is significant, and yes, I have lived long enough not to be ignorant of the wickedness of the world- and how!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:16 pm

Shelley @ Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:56 pm wrote:Who knows if the door was open or shut? We are assuming that all people were telling the truth in their testimonies? The easiest solution is that maybe it was always open. Frankly, if I were Lizzie and had done it, I too would have sworn it was shut. Clearly it was open for the discovery of the body by Churchill and Bridget. And in the end- it hardly makes a whit of difference one way or another as the body cannot be seen with the door open unless you are coming up the stairs or lay down on the floor in front of the dress closet and purposely look under the bed.

That is certainly something I could agree with. A trial often has contrary or differing testimony. The jury listens and watches to make its decision on the best evidence.
It could likely be that a Secret Visitor would leave the door open when he left to go downstairs.
There is no 1000% reliable evidence, as far as I know.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:52 pm

Kat wrote:Do you see where the bannister railing turns from light to dark, Harry?
That is the section that made me wonder if the whole piece was still original.

I see what you mean, Kat. I can't see any where that it is two separate pieces joined together. It may be that a darker coat of varnish was applied to the railing from near the top down, the upper part left light to match the color or the wood floor.

It wouldn't necessarily indicate that the railing is not original but that it was just varnished a different color.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:23 pm

I agree that Abby was the main target. But she was upstairs cleaning the guest room for a while and nothing happened to her. It really makes me wonder why, when she goes back up there for a few minutes, the killer decides to strike then. I'm interested in others' thoughts on this. I don't know if we've ever looked at this closely.

Lizzie would also call Mrs. Borden "Mrs. B".

I thought Emma had always called Abby "Abby".

Good point that Bridget's hands were wet, Shelley. Or should I say could have been. I hadn't thought of that. I agree. I think Lizzie was laughing at either what Bridget said (Bridget says she said "Pshaw!, )or Lizzie was laughing at Bridget fumbling - or maybe because Andrew was locked out. Still, if she had just got done killing Abby, laughing about anything is weird.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:18 pm

Looks to me like the bannister and railing have been refinished. That could account for the discrepancy in the color beween one section of wood and another. Could be that the original varnish (or whatever) was tinted a darker hue, which would have made the whole thing uniform in color.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:05 am

***But she was upstairs cleaning the guest room for a while and nothing happened to her. It really makes me wonder why, when she goes back up there for a few minutes, the killer decides to strike then. I'm interested in others' thoughts on this. I don't know if we've ever looked at this closely***

i agree. this is the most mystifying part where several things must have transpired in a very particular way. i ponder this more than anything. i saw Fatal Attraction tonight and thought about it -- michael douglas is down in the kitchen with a screaming tea kettle while glenn close is trying to kill his wife upstairs in bathroom (guestroom). this doesn't solve anything, of course, but it wouldn't hurt to apply horror movie scenarios like this for ideas.

you make another good point about lizzie laughing -- if she does so with knowledge of abby's dead body, that would make her insane, basically. say if this occurs at 9:30 -- where exactly is lizzie and what is she up to? i mean, for argument's sake, if you accept lizzie's word that she presumed abby had finished the room and shut the door, this puts lizzie out of the front part of the house during the murder. we can always put her on the cellar flush toilet, but this does not satisfy, does it?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:09 am

That's a good question Augusta. The only thing I can think of is that Morse was still there when Abby first was cleaning the room- meaning he hadn't left the house yet.
He says she went into the front foyer about 10 minutes before he left and he never saw her alive again.
So it might infer the killer waited for Morse to leave and probably Andrew.
I might see why to wait for Morse to leave, but if one wanted to eventually kill Andrew, why not hit both at that time?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:10 am

Looking at that picture of the railing some more, there is dark wood, then light wood, then dark wood again. It would be good to see the whole thing I guess.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:34 am

It is very common for wood to be joined together end-to-end when making stair railings, especially when the railing is curving. In fact wood has to be joined together end-to-end when a section curves. Different pieces of wood from the same tree can appear at different values depending where in the tree it was cut. One piece can appear dark while another light. If the stair maker knew it was to be painted he may not have bothered matching the wood more closely.

-1bigsteve (o:

william · Post by **william** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:53 am

The Borden house was built in 1845. At that time, perhaps the entire hand rail and the balusters were painted or stained the same color.With this in mind the builder may have exhibited little concern for the natural color of the wood.

In Phillips History of Fall River, he has a photograph of a portion of the lower staircase. It appears that the railing has a dark color, and the balusters are stained with a lighter color. I don't know the date of the photograph; probably 1892 or later.

Unless more information is forthcoming, one can only speculate

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:54 am

I notice that inconsistency goes all along the banister culminating in the newell post which has a wide dark strip right down the center.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:03 am

Thanks for looking at that, Shelley.

Does it look like separate pieces of wood, natural color patterns on the same piece, varnish, paint or something else?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:26 pm

augusta @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:07 pm wrote:If Abby had not gone back up to the guest room to put shams on the pillows, where would she have been killed? Would she have been killed? Did she stumble across Andrew's killer's hiding place?

I am wondering if she would have been killed at all. Or maybe your are right, maybe she did stumble on andrew's killer. The only thing was was that she was killed first, so maybe she was the intended victim? And the killer just figured to take care of business and get andrew too.

Dr_OBoogie · Post by **Dr_OBoogie** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:34 am

Shelley @ Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:54 pm wrote:If you go by Bridget's first statement to police, she said she heard Lizzie laugh at the top of the stairs after she had difficulty with all the locks on the front door. That sounds possible as her hands might have been wet. Later Bridget says " I don't know where the girl was"- and Lizzie claims she was in the kitchen when Andrew came home. As you can see from the sight line in this photo, Lizzie watching Bridget from the top of the stairs could not see ABby's body behind the bed on the floor.

Lizzie at the top of the stairs raises a lot of questions. Was she going up or coming down? If she was going up, why didn't she continue? If she was coming down, where had she come from? If Lizzie had been heading toward the front stairs, wouldn't Bridget have intercepted her when she went to answer the door?

I suspect she was coming downstairs, which doesn't look good at all and might help explain why Bridget had a lapse in memory in later statements.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:57 am

Yes, I agree, she was coming downstairs. Bridget was coming to the front door from the sittingroom. Lizzie could only have been coming from her room or Emma's which is inside Lizzie's room, the dress closet , or the guestroom. Lizzie did admit she had been upstairs earlier that morning doing some mending and putting away a little pile of clothing- maybe 5 minutes. Her story changes , once saying Abby was in the guestroom alive when she went down. She also said the door was shut when she passed by it. Now that cannot be possible or she would have not seen Abby in the guestroom nor would Bridget and Mrs. Churchill have been able to have seen Abby's body under the bed much later. Just one more instance of Lizzie forgetting, retracting, and changing things around. I believe Bridget, that she was coming down. I believe she was coming down from her room where she had been changing her clothing. I wish the officer had checked that bundle rolled up on the floor of Emma's closet when he first saw it sticking out!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:12 pm

This is sort of right- a bit confusing. May I?

Her story changes , once saying Abby was in the guestroom alive when she went down. She also said the door was shut when she passed by it. Now that cannot be possible or she would have not seen Abby in the guestroom nor would Bridget and Mrs. Churchill have been able to have seen Abby's body under the bed much later.

Abbie was alive supposedly, in the guestroom, when Lizzie first came down in the morning near to 9 AM.
And the door was shut when Lizzie was upstairs later:
Q. When you went up stairs for a short time, as you say you did, you then went in sight of the sewing machine?
A. No, I did not see the sewing machine, because she had shut that room up.
Q. What do you mean?
A. I mean the door was closed. She said she wanted it kept closed to keep the dust and everything out.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:33 pm

Kat @ Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:12 am wrote: Q. When you went up stairs for a short time, as you say you did, you then went in sight of the sewing machine?
A. No, I did not see the sewing machine, because she had shut that room up.
Q. What do you mean?
A. I mean the door was closed. She said she wanted it kept closed to keep the dust and everything out.

I know a lot of what Lizzie said about that morning doesn't add up, but keeping the door shut to keep dust out does make sense. Now, whether Abby really said that or not, is questionable.

Tracy...

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:45 pm

Kat @ Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:12 am wrote:This is sort of right- a bit confusing. May I?
Her story changes , once saying Abby was in the guestroom alive when she went down. She also said the door was shut when she passed by it. Now that cannot be possible or she would have not seen Abby in the guestroom nor would Bridget and Mrs. Churchill have been able to have seen Abby's body under the bed much later.
Abbie was alive supposedly, in the guestroom, when Lizzie first came down in the morning near to 9 AM.
And the door was shut when Lizzie was upstairs later:
Q. When you went up stairs for a short time, as you say you did, you then went in sight of the sewing machine?
A. No, I did not see the sewing machine, because she had shut that room up.
Q. What do you mean?
A. I mean the door was closed. She said she wanted it kept closed to keep the dust and everything out.

Do you know what time Lizzie went up the stairs, the "short trip" I mean when the door was closed? I was just thinking that maybe the door was closed at that time, not by Abby, but by the killer. Perhaps the killer was there in the guest room killing Abby or arranging the body or cleaning the weapon, or whatever, when Lizzie made that "short trip" up the stairs and couldn't see the Singer. Maybe Lizzie just assumed Abby was the one who closed the door?

-1bigsteve (o:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:46 pm

Edit here--ooops- we passed each other - I was responding to Tracy as :Yes indeed. And even if it was closed at all. yes.

(I was getting the timing down mostly).

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:00 pm

theebmonique @ Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:33 am wrote:
Kat @ Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:12 am wrote: Q. When you went up stairs for a short time, as you say you did, you then went in sight of the sewing machine?
A. No, I did not see the sewing machine, because she had shut that room up.
Q. What do you mean?
A. I mean the door was closed. She said she wanted it kept closed to keep the dust and everything out.
I know a lot of what Lizzie said about that morning doesn't add up, but keeping the door shut to keep dust out does make sense. Now, whether Abby really said that or not, is questionable.

Tracy...

My Grandmother had a habit of keeping the doors closed in her house for that very same reason. To keep the dust out. I don't know how well that works. When you open a door the air rushes in bringing dust with it. When the door is closed the dust settles. In the pre-vacum days those women probably needed every advantage they could get to minimize their housework.

Keeping doors closed in the Borden House may have been SOP?

-1bigsteve (o:

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:21 pm

Lizzie said she went down cellar that morning when she got up, picked up a pile of clean clothes and went up directly with them. That would place it all just after 9 a.m. I think. It is all rather a muddle. If she went downstairs with her chamber pot around 9 when she came down. How did she go back upstairs carrying the chamber pot and carrying a pile of clean clothing? Maybe she left the pot downstairs? She then said while she was upstairs, she sat and basted a piece of tape on a sleeve. The whole affair was no more than 5 minutes. Oddly, that might have placed her up there about the same time we think Abby was killed if we take 9:15-9:30 as the time of the murder. Of course Lizzie maintains she was in the kitchen with her magazine and cookie by that time. I do not recall reading that she went upstairs a second time., although she must have if Bridget heard her laugh on the top of the steps at 10:45.

Later she thinks she did not eat anything. In fact , her details change constantly- small details, but still inconsistencies.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:09 pm

I believe in Lizzie's statements. Because she would have sounded the alarm earlier if she saw a dead body there.
I think she did not do the murders, or plan them. Surprised?
PS
My assumption or belief is that Lizzie said the laughter came from her as she wanted to hide the presence of the Visitor.
But this certainly incriminated her. If she had more time to think of an answer, she could have said she heard nothing at the time, except for the noise from the street. Agree?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:10 pm

I guess you are talking to me, Ray? No, I do not agree. And that should be no surprise either. I do not espouse Brown's theory, secret visitors, strange characters, peculiar smells , the reliability of Ellen's tale, or illegitimate sons and confiding unknown midwives as the solution to this puzzle. That is why you do not see me posting away on any of the Brown theory threads. I am content for you to hold forth full tilt over there with people who like to discuss that particular theory, and I will never foist any of my opinions and views in that area, in fact you will never see me there at all- no interest and nothing to add, although I have taken the time to read the book. That now having been said, we both know exactly where we are-yes?
And here is a smiley

as all of the above is not being said with a malicious tone.

As to Lizzie,of course she did not sound an alarm-why would she if she was the murderer?

It was Bridget, not Lizzie who said at first that she heard Lizzie laugh at the top of the stairs when Mr. Borden came home. You will remember Bridget had troubles opening the door and said a little swear word, which Bridget assumed was the cause of Lizzie's mirth. Much later on, Bridget will say, "I don't remember where the girl was" when asked. Lizzie is carefully pinned down as to where she was when her father came home, and she changed her story. Finally in exasperation, she gives that famous "As nearly as I remember I was in the kitchen" response.

The paragraph above is from actual testimony, not theory. Frankly I have always believed Bridget. And to believe Bridget, either Lizzie went upstairs a second time, or Lizzie went up after 9 and stayed up there until her father came home at 10:45, which is highly unlikely. She says she came right down almost directly. It is always a possibility that she lied, of course. In fact, anybody might have lied, told a partial truth, or suppressed evidence for reasons of their own. A body is not visible from the upstairs landing with the door open. So if you want to believe she is innocent, well, she could easily have been upstairs and not seen Abby-or the door could have been shut when she was up there, but had to have been opened by someone later so Churchill and Bridget could see the body from the stairs.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:39 am

I printed out the testimony of Lizzie about when last she saw Abbie. And where she says she was when- and when Andrew returned.
I find a consistency in her statements about Abbie, if I rely only on her own statements. As long as I don't compare her version with another, she is plausible.
It surprised me.
The parts I used printed out at 7 pages. Her testimony is 49 pages in a WORD doc- I don't know how many printed pages that would be.

Her story is that she got up "a few minutes before nine," possibly about "quarter" to nine. She spoke to Abbie in the dining room who was dusting, also saw her father in the sitting room and then in the kitchen, saw Bridget "just come in the back door with the long pole, brush;" she went down to the cellar, for somewhere between 2 and 5 minutes, and when she came back upstairs she never saw Abbie again. Lizzie says the guest room door was closed, and says Abbie wanted it kept closed. This doesn't have any context as to when it was shut or seen shut by Lizzie. It also doesn't mean that the door was not closed when Lizzie got up nor does it mean the room was finished even if the door was shut.
(Again, this is based on evaluating Lizzie at sworn inquest, not what may be in the witness statements).

Lizzie says Abbie told her the bed had been made "fresh"- and Lizzie never says she saw Abbie in the guest room. What was done by Abbie to or in the guest room, or what was still needing to be done in there, was told her by Abbie when she, Lizzie, came down.

As for where she was when Andrew came home, and when she did go upstairs, I find her saying, in this order:
"I was down in the kitchen."
"He came home after I came downstairs."
"I was not upstairs when he came home"

"I think in my room upstairs"
"I think I was"
"I was on the stairs coming down"

"I think I was downstairs in the kitchen"
"I said I thought first I was on the stairs; then I remembered I was in the kitchen"
"Then I said I knew I was in the kitchen. I still say that now. I was in the kitchen"
"No sir, I was in the kitchen"

There is a preponderance of times where Lizzie says she was in the kitchen, and also not upstairs. Note the 3 small statements where this varies. I have these broken out. But still in proper sequence.
To be con't.

Shelley @ Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:21 pm wrote:Lizzie said she went down cellar that morning when she got up, picked up a pile of clean clothes and went up directly with them. That would place it all just after 9 a.m. I think. It is all rather a muddle. If she went downstairs with her chamber pot around 9 when she came down. How did she go back upstairs carrying the chamber pot and carrying a pile of clean clothing? Maybe she left the pot downstairs? She then said while she was upstairs, she sat and basted a piece of tape on a sleeve. The whole affair was no more than 5 minutes. Oddly, that might have placed her up there about the same time we think Abby was killed if we take 9:15-9:30 as the time of the murder. Of course Lizzie maintains she was in the kitchen with her magazine and cookie by that time. I do not recall reading that she went upstairs a second time., although she must have if Bridget heard her laugh on the top of the steps at 10:45.

Later she thinks she did not eat anything. In fact , her details change constantly- small details, but still inconsistencies.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:02 am

This testimony goes toward showing Lizzie's statements about when she was upstairs, and is in consecutive order:
Q. Are you sure you were in the kitchen when your father returned?
A. I am not sure whether I was there or in the dining room.
Q. Did you go back to your room before your father returned?
A. I think I did carry up some clean clothes.
Q. Did you stay there?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you spend any time up the front stairs before your father returned?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or after he returned?
A. No, sir. I did stay in my room long enough when I went up to sew a little piece of tape on a garment.
Q. Was that the time when your father came home?
A. He came home after I came down stairs.
Q. You were not up stairs when he came home?
A. I was not up stairs when he came home; no, sir.

[When Lizzie first says "I think I did carry up some clean clothes" she does not specify any Time. In this section she says she went upstairs before Andrew came home- ie.: that after she came down he returned. In the next section, below, she says he came home As she was coming down. Then it is expanded upon to say she was only up there about 5 minutes before he came home. Since this section is *different*- having to do with her on the stairs or just leaving her room when Andrew returned- in context it seems almost natural-natural that is for someone trying to recall several days before what one did. It is not so inconsistent is what I mean. It equates with:
She was up there but came down (possibly just before he returned); she was up there 5 minutes before he returned; she was on her way down when he returned.
If Andrew returned at 10:40 am, for instance, then Lizzie is saying she went up about 10:35, in this next section.]
.........
Q. Where were you when the bell rang?
A. I think in my room up stairs.
Q. Then you were up stairs when your father came home?
A. I don't know sure, but I think I was.
Q. What were you doing?
A. As I say, I took up these clean clothes, and stopped and basted a little piece of tape on a garment.
Q. Did you come down before your father was let in?
A. I was on the stairs coming down when she let him in.
Q. Then you were up stairs when your father came to the house on his return?
A. I think I was.
Q. How long had you been there?
A. I had only been upstairs just long enough to take the clothes up and baste the little loop on the sleeve. I don't think I had been up there over five minutes.
......
[This next short section, below, is Lizzie's First change as to when she was upstairs. Here she says she came down, went up "almost immediately", and came down "and stayed down."]

Q... which now is your recollection of the true statement of the matter, that you were down stairs when the bell rang and your father came?
A. I think I was down stairs in the kitchen.
Q. And then you were not up stairs?
A. I think I was not; because I went up almost immediately, as soon as I went down, and then came down again and stayed down.
.....
Q. When you went up stairs for a short time, as you say you did, you then went in sight of the sewing machine?
A. No, I did not see the sewing machine, because she had shut that room up.
Q. What do you mean?
A. I mean the door was closed. She said she wanted it kept closed to keep the dust and everything out.

[Again, here above, there is not a time accepted or established, in the question, as to when Lizzie went upstairs.]
........
Q. You were always in the kitchen or dining room, excepting when you went up stairs?
A. I went up stairs before he went out.
Q. You mean you went up there to sew a button on?
A. I basted a piece of tape on.
Q. Do you remember you did not say that yesterday?
A. I don't think you asked me. I told you yesterday I went up stairs directly after I came up from down cellar, with the clean clothes.
Q. You now say after your father went out, you did not go up stairs at all?
A. No sir, I did not.
....
(Judge Blaisdell.) Was this witness on Thursday morning in the front hall or front stairs or front chamber, any part of the front part of the house at all?
Q. What do you say to that?
A. I had to come down the front stairs to get into the kitchen.
Q. When you came down first?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you afterwards?
A. No, sir.
Q. Not at all?
A. Except the few minutes I went up with the clean clothes, and I had to come back again.
Q. That you now say was before Mr. Borden went away?
A. Yes, sir.

[So Lizzie's final answer about going upstairs is to the Judge directly, and she claims again that it was before her father went away.]

This post is not directed at anyone- just figuring things aloud.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:12 am

It almost sounds like Lizzie had to say the door to the guest room was shut, because if she was up there during that time, she would have seen Abby. By the door being shut, she has no knowledge of where Abby was. I have always thought she was on the stairs when Bridget heard her laugh, and Lizzie knows this creates a problem for her, so she changes her story.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:49 am

Thanks for printing out all of that-this it the testimony to which I was referring, verbatim.
This is the statement I am trying to work out:

"Q. You were always in the kitchen or dining room, excepting when you went up stairs?
A. I went up stairs before he went out. "

That has to be before Andrew went out about 9 a.m. when Lizzie says she went downstairs to the watercloset, got the clean clothes and saw Bridget coming in with the pail and brush by the side door. (Just as an experiment I tried going up those steep front stairs carrying a pile of laundry, a chamberpot, and holding up a long skirt. It was a neat trick). Believing this testimony, then Lizzie would have been upstairs from about 9:05-9:10 a.m. which would be dangerously close to when Abby was up there being killed. If she came down and went into the kitchen, then it would have been a real feat for a killer to have come down unseen and either hidden or exited the house, sneaked into the cellar, or taken refuge to hang around for Andrew without being seen or heard by Lizzie in the kitchen.

And, if we are to believe Bridget- and I tend to, then Lizzie must have gone upstairs a second time that morning to be coming down the stairs when Andrew comes home at 10:45. Does that sound reasonable to assume? What she was doing the second time up there is the interesting speculation.

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

If Abby Had Only ...

If Abby Had Only ...

Re: If Abby Had Only ...

Re: If Abby Had Only ...