Reasons to believe Lizzie innocent of acting solo

[camgarsky4]

All -- the thread subject should read....."If Lizzie was involved in the murders, reasons to believe she did not act alone."

1) No proven murder weapon found on the property.
2) No blood found on Lizzie's person or clothing.

Can you think of any other SOLID reasons to believe Lizzie did not act alone in the murders of Andrew and Abby?

We've discussed the relatively plausible concept that the murderer could have used Andrew's Prince Albert coat to cover themselves when dispatching Andrew. There was plenty of time after Abby's death to have cleaned up and removed any signs of such.

That leaves us with the murder weapon. Seems like we have three potential solutions.
1) The handle-less hatchet was the murder weapon.
2) The Crowe barn roof hatchet was the murder weapon.
3) Lizzie had a co-conspirator, who removed the murder weapon from the property.

[Curiousmind2014]

Hello Camgarsky,

I personally am of an opinion that it was a planned murder and Lizzie had several co-conspirators. My explanations are on this post here.

Fantastic Four Theory (Emma, Lizzie, Bridget, JVM) (https://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/ ... 633#p86633).

Reasons I believe she did not commit the murder, especially of her dad, Andrew Borden are as follows:

1. Too tight of a timeline with Andrew Borden. He entered home around 10:45am, Bridget was alerted around 11:05am, and policemen were home by 11:14am.She would have easily extended the timeline. She could have taken a few more minutes, maybe 30 more minutes to put things in order.

2. Too many irregularities happening at the same time. Visit of Uncle Morse (was a butcher at one time), Emma's travel.

3. This mode of operation was not the first time it happened. One was the murder, then was the robbery which happened a year ago. These are the two instances where it became public and police got involved. There must probably be more such instances which Abby & Andrew never caught but people came in the house and disappeared without notice. In two documented instances, police was never able to figure out what happened and how it happened. Therefore, while executing this murder, they had confidence that they can get away with it.

Besides these there are many reasons that I believe Lizzie had accomplices.

I also doubt many events that are considered to be facts actually happened. All we know is the following:

1. No one saw Abby after 9:00am / 9:30am. Next time she was found dead.
2. Andrew entered the home around 10:45am, and was probably dead around 11:05am
3. Bridget was talking to neighbor's maid at some point in time and was probably washing windows until 10:30am.

Also, there must be some high tensions amongst family members prior to the murders.

1. Andrew repurchased homes gifted to Lizzie and Emma few weeks before the murders.
2. Abby was super scared and she suspected someone is trying to kill her.
3. Lizzie herself felt someone might try and hurt them.

Probably various means were tried which we don't know of besides the prussic acid case.

Now it is too late to resolve the case, as people involved are dead. Few years ago, I heard they found diaries of Jennings, but nothing that I know of is revealed. I have enjoyed older books such as by Victoria Lincoln's as it sheds light on the hearsay stories and the society at that point in time. Although, I disagree with her epileptic rationale.

Lizzie was acquitted due to absence of proof, not because of proof of absence. There was reasonable amount of doubt which resulted in it.

[camgarsky4]

Curious -- couple thoughts on Morse.

Since Morse visited the Borden home 3-4x that same summer, I wouldn't call his visit an irregularity, depending on ones definition of irregularity. Not saying his visit had nothing to do with the murders, just that I don't consider it irregular since John regularly visited the Borden's.

I am not aware of any evidence (weak or strong) that supports the concept of incest in the Borden household. However, we do know that Lizzie (age 32) and Emma (age 42) inherited a huge sum of money. Money and sex are probably the most common motives for murder. We have indisputable evidence of one of those in this case and nothing but pure conjecture for the other.

Lastly, Morse's legendary 'overly detailed' alibi is an urban myth in my opinion. There are zero contemporary newspaper articles, witness statements or testimony mentioning badge #'s. The 6 priests that Morse did mention were noticed by others. So apparently they were very noticeable. Article posted below.

Source: Fall River Daily Evening News. August 5, 1892. Page 8.
“…...Mr. Morse’s story has, however, been confirmed, so far as the priests being on a car is concerned, by Conductor Kennedy of the car going east, who says he passed the car with the priests on the hill by the Pocasset engine house, about where Mr. Morse took the car, and that he took its time, and it was just 22 minutes after 11 o’clock.”

To our knowledge, Morse's lifestyle did not change after the murders. This would seem to be inconsistent with receiving any type of financial windfall. We are also unaware of any relationship maintenance with either sister after the murders. So, it would seem that if Morse participated in slaughtering a man he seemed to be a friend with for no discernible reason, he had to have been an psychopath. But to our knowledge he never displayed that tendency elsewhere in his lifetime.

In a nutshell, I do think it is possible Lizzie had an accomplice, but based on what I know at this point, I don't think that person was John or Bridget. Emma.....she might have been an emotional co-conspirator.

[Catbooks]

There's only one reason that makes me wonder if she had an accomplice, and that's the short amount of time between Andrew's last being seen and when Lizzie herself raised the alarm to Bridget.

She did send Bridget out almost immediately across the street to Dr Bowen, buying a little more time to clean up, get rid of the hatchet (if the Crowe hatchet was the weapon, but either way something was done with it), fix her hair if mussed, check in a mirror to make sure she looked normal, and compose herself in general. Bridget wouldn't have examined her closely, on just learning one of her employers had just been murdered.

Still, it's not a lot of time, as it was with Abby's murder.

If she did have an accomplice, I don't think it was Uncle John, Bridget, or Emma, although I believe all three of them suspected Lizzie and knew more than they testified to.

Has Uncle John's overly detailed alibi been disproven? The number on the conductor's cap and of the horse car? If it was just the six priests, it's understandable he'd remember them.

Then that would leave only his seemingly peculiar actions when he arrived back at the house, not noticing unfamiliar people or a crowd in front and going to the back yard to eat pears instead of going inside and asking what on earth was going on. Or, were there truly no people outside? Were they all inside at this point?

[camgarsky4]

Catbooks -- very well put. We are of like mind.

A few thoughts on Morse (I have appointed myself his attorney )

The conductor badge and street car #'s were first mentioned by Attorney Arthur Phillips in his 1934 article recounting his memories of the case. From there, everyone from Victoria Lincoln to the poster above, Curious Mind, have taken it is a fact.

The street car and badge #'s are never mentioned in Morse's inquest, preliminary and trial testimonies. Nothing in the witness statements. Nothing in the newspapers, who, as we know, very aggressive in printing anything that could spark interest or controversy.

My opinion is that Phillips was wanting to ''spice up' his recollections to support the book he would be publishing on Fall River history, headlined by new revelations of the Borden crime. Last point on this is that the badge/car #'s are not even mentioned in Jennings Journals....which was a compilation of Phillips and Jennings case notes. There are multiple and lengthy entries for Morse and this information is never noted.

Regarding Morse stating he didn't notice anyone upon returning to the house.....my best estimate is that he arrived at the house around 11:30-11:35. This timing is based on Conductor Kennedy seeing the street car Morse was on around 11:22. The Pocasset engine house was within a block of where Morse got off the street car. Per googlemap.com that would be around a 6-7 minute walk for Morse after deboarding the street car to get to the Borden house.

Source: Fall River Daily Evening News. August 5, 1892. Page 8.
“…...Mr. Morse’s story has, however, been confirmed, so far as the priests being on a car is concerned, by Conductor Kennedy of the car going east, who says he passed the car with the priests on the hill by the Pocasset engine house, about where Mr. Morse took the car, and that he took its time, and it was just 22 minutes after 11 o’clock.”

Dr. Bowen returned to the house after sending the telegram to Emma and testified that he didn't notice anyone. His arrival was around 11:30.

Bowen Inquest testimony. Page 118.
The prior answer described Bowen sending the telegram, stopping by Bakers Drugs briefly and going back to the Borden house.
Q. Had the crowd began to collect around there then?
A. No sir.
Q. The news had not got around?
A. No sir. I don't know as I saw anybody going in at that time.

Knowlton and Bowen cover this same information at least two more times during Bowen's testimony.

Sawyer testified that he was in and out of the side door during the initial minutes after being assigned as the 'door guard'.

[Catbooks]

We are of a like mind, Camgarsky! Or should I say Counsel Camgarsky?

This is very interesting. It's so frustrating how much mythology is involved in this case, then add to it the sensationalist and inaccurate reporting, and it makes it very difficult to sort out fact from fiction, on a case that's difficult to begin with.

If the conductor's badge number and the number of the street car weren't mentioned in Morse's inquest, preliminary and trial testimonies, or any witness statements, or even the newspapers, as part of his alibi, that's very telling. Yet the six priests were, and that's understandable because they would stand out in anyone's memory, plus corroborated by the other conductor.

If Dr Bowen also didn't notice anyone, let alone a crowd, outside of the Borden house at 11:30, when he returned, and JM arrived somewhere between 11:30 and 11:35, it seems entirely likely he didn't see anyone and had no cause for suspicion. If Sawyer wasn't positioned at the back door during this whole time, he may not have seen anything to cause him to go directly in the house. So why not go to the back yard and eat a pear or two before the noon meal?

Was his visit to the Bordens on this day suspicious or out of the norm? Yes and no. Yes, in that it was the day before the murders, and perhaps that he brought nothing with him, not even a toothbrush for an overnight stay. But do we know anything about his personal hygiene? Was he fastidious about it, or not?

I don't find it suspicious that Lizzie didn't come in to greet him that night. Clearly she avoided her parents as best she could on a regular basis. She also didn't appear to have a relationship with him, unlike Emma, so while it's strange in that it reveals part of the family dysfunction, I don't think it shows anything pointing to him.

If he knew or suspected nothing, I'd expect him to have been shocked in the extreme upon learning Andrew, his apparent long-term friend, had just been brutally murdered. I'd have to read his testimony over again, and that of the witnesses, if any, who commented on his demeanor when he was told what happened.

But we also have his telling Emma about Andrew's impending change of his will.

What happened to that original will? Why was it or a copy of it never found? Andrew was a meticulous person, unusually concerned with matters of money. It doesn't make sense to me he wouldn't have left a copy of his will somewhere, before rewriting it.

[camgarsky4]

Lizzie not greeting Morse is one of the most obvious aspects of this case to me. She was planning to kill people in that house the next day....why in the world would she be of the mind to casually greet ANYONE in the hours proceeding her actions? No one would, unless part of 'setting the stage' (aka the Alice Russell call). Even if I didn't care for someone, if I knew I would be ending their life in the coming 12 hours, I would not want to look at them any more than necessary. I certainly wouldn't be in a socializing mood. That said, I do believe she attempted to overhear what the folks were discussing and to hear what Morse's plans were for the next day.

I'm of the opinion that Morse did take on the 'protective father figure' roll in the weeks after the murder. Could have been at Emma's request or because he knew that is what his sister would want him to do.