What was Lizzie doing before 8:50 Aug 4?

[camgarsky4]

Since I believe that Lizzie committed both murders solo, I've tried to envision what time she woke up (if indeed her nerves let her sleep that night) and what she did between waking up and going downstairs around 8:50.

I am sure she was keeping an eye out Emma's window to know when Morse was leaving the house. She needed him gone, didn't want to talk to him and she, 'coincidentally', came downstairs just moments after he left. So I think this is a safe bet.

I also believe she prepared for the killings by selecting the painted dress and an apron to wear as she left the room. The hatchet was in her room already in early preparation for the Marion trip and after the final failure to purchase deadly poison, she had decided the previous afternoon to go the violent route.

She probably heard Abby in the guest room and waited for her to head downstairs before following close behind her and catching up with her in the dining room. I can see her in my minds eye, cracking her door open to verify when she thought Abby was leaving the guest room.

During her inquest testimony, she seemed to know that Bridget had been assigned the window washing chore prior to the 'chat' with Bridget at the back screen door. So I've stewing on the idea that she listened in on the dining room conversations that morning as she looked out Emma's window. I am not sold on this piece of speculation, but it would explain a couple things. No idea if hearing voices from dining room from Emma's room is possible. It was directly over the dining room, but that doesn't seal the deal. Any of you that have visited the Borden house, do you think sounds could carry from 1st floor to the room directly above?

[Jess_humandisaster]

You might have gotten an answer about whether sound travels from the dining room to Emma's room from somewhere else by now, but in case you didn't, back when me and my friend stayed there for 2 nights we couldn't hear anyone downstairs from Emma's room because we tested it.

We were staying in Bridget's room but on the second night we got to spend a good chunk of time hanging out in Lizzie and Emma's room, and a little bit in Andrew and Abby's room, because both suites were unoccupied then. I was reminded of a theory and I told my friend about it and we decided to see if it was possible while there were still a few guests awake, talking and roaming around the dining room and sitting room.

I think it was the theory about Lizzie, or Emma, possibly overhearing their father and uncle downstairs discussing the will but on that I'm not 100% sure. Whatever the exact reason was, we were trying to find out if Lizzie would have been able to hear conversations clearly from either her or Emma's room.

Obviously this was just our own experience and others could have gotten totally different results. Neither of us are scientists or researchers so I certainly don't expect anyone to take my word as concrete proof!

We tested with doors open and shut, and I believe in Lizzie's room with her bedroom door shut we could make out footsteps and muffled voices if we were standing near the door, and with the door open or cracked we could hear what was being said somewhat clearly, again, as long as we were standing by it. The closer they were to the Entrance Hall, the easier it was.

But in Emma's room, we couldn't hear anything, even with her and Lizzie's doors open. In fact, whatever theory we were trying to prove or disprove, I remembered it because we had been in Emma's room and when we went downstairs we were surprised to find that 3-4 others were still awake because we didn't hear them at all while sitting in Emma's room.

And, though it's not relevant I find it pretty funny, one guy standing near the sitting room doorway was way more surprised to see us--apparently he didn't notice us come down the stairs into the extremely dimly lit Entrance Hall because he caught sight of my friend headed his direction out of the corner of his eye and basically jumped out of his skin. The fact that he was literally in the middle of ghost hunting with his group, all of them wearing matching t-shirts and everything, made it so much funnier and branded the incident into our brains.

[camgarsky4]

Jess - thanks for in the intel. That was cool that you had run of the 2nd floor for while. Do u recommend staying there? Does it help visualize the events of that day?

[Steve88778]

I have never been there but I would think when they did any renovations that they would have added insulation. I dont think much of that house is original - wall wise. Or maybe even the floor.

[Jess_humandisaster]

Jess - thanks for in the intel. That was cool that you had run of the 2nd floor for while. Do u recommend staying there? Does it help visualize the events of that day?

I'd for sure recommend going! Though I'd suggest avoiding the little gift shop behind the house. To be fair, I'm not quite sure what I was expecting from a historical crime scene turned bed-and-breakfast gift shop, but still, I coudnt help but find the axe and blood-splatter designs on everything to kinda be in poor taste, to say the least.

Aside from that, it's a worthwhile experience. Guests get a free tour in the evening and since we stayed two nights we got two tours with two different guides, both of whom were genuinely passionate and very knowledgeable about the Borden's and the case.

It's definitely much easier for me to visualize things now that I've gotten to see and roam through the whole house. Before, I'd have to pull up a blueprint or picture all the time because the bizarre layout made it hard for me to picture and now I don't have to.

And after dedicating so much time to researching the Borden's, the case, and the things that happened in that house, getting to actually see it in person and walk through it is a really neat, and somewhat eerie, feeling. Even being able to see where they did the most mundane things, like eat or climb the stairs everyday, felt special.

Though thinking about how there was probably at least one occasion where Bridget bumped her head on the very low, slanted ceiling in her room that I bumped my head on was only a fun thought the first time. Like, I personally don't think Bridget was involved in the murders, but there was a moment after head bang #3 where I'm not sure I would have blamed her if she had been.

[Jess_humandisaster]

I have never been there but I would think when they did any renovations that they would have added insulation. I dont think much of that house is original - wall wise. Or maybe even the floor.

There's definitely been renovations but I don't think the overall structure has changed much since the Borden's lived there. I could be wrong though! One interesting thing I remember hearing that hasn't changed is the crown moulding in Lizzie's room, which was apparently done by Andrew.

[camgarsky4]

Are there still 4 bedrooms on 2nd floor? How many and where located are the 2nd floor bathrooms?

[Jess_humandisaster]

Are there still 4 bedrooms on 2nd floor? How many and where located are the 2nd floor bathrooms?

Yes only tehnically there's 5 bedrooms because they turned the walk-in closet/office in Andrew and Abby's room into another bedroom, making it a 2 bedroom suite like Lizzie and Emma's room.

Unfortunately there's only one bathroom on the second floor (and only one on the third). I believe it was in the main hallway, between Lizzie's bedroom and the spare bedroom, aka John Morse's room.

One other thing that is a little annoying is that since they do tours during the day, staying more than one night means you have to be out of the house from 10:30am until 4pm. There's plenty to do and see in that time though. After paying our respects to the Borden's at the cemetery and checking out some of the landmarks, we actually went and spent the day in Salem, which was about an hour drive from Fall River.

[camgarsky4]

Sounds like maybe they converted the infamous 2nd floor front clothes closet into a bathroom? The closet where Emma 'saw' the painted dress hanging and decided that Lizzie needed to burn it....and burn it now! :)

[Beowulf]

Is it true Emma suggested to Lizzie to burn the dress? I've don't remember reading that. Also, if her dress were splattered with blood how could she hang it in her closet without tainting her other clothes? Seems like a bad idea. It could also drip blood were it heavily splattered. I wonder if anyone has ever 'luminaled' the closet, or any other part of the house. I think I saw a special on tv where that was done but I only remember it being done in the basement looking for the hatchet in a part of a basement wall where they found one in some kind of open pit or something.

And doggone it, I have been to Salem 3 times and had 2 times where I roamed the town looking for something to do. Could've head to Fall River and gone to this B&B.

[camgarsky4]

Yes, Emma testified that she burn paint dress. She also was going to testify that burning old clothes was a Borden ‘tradition’, but judge wouldn’t let that be testified to. The blood splatter evidence suggests that the murderers clothes would have gotten sprays of blood at most, not be saturated in blood. Whatever blood may have gotten on clothes would likely have been absorbed into the fabric. Not enough to subsequently ‘drip’.

[Steve88778]

Lizzie told Emma that she was going to burn the dress while she was at the stove - Emma said go ahead - or why don't you -something to that effect.

[Beowulf]

I knew Lizzie did burn the dress but I did not remember Emma recommending for Lizzie to burn it. Does make you wonder if they were in cahoots.

I wonder what she was doing AFTER the murder at 9. She spent her time after the second murder by the door if that is correct, as if she would not step in the house, 'so horrible' but she sure as heck did not spend the hour and a half or whatever by the back door after the Abby murder. How do you twiddle your thumbs and wait till the second to be victim gets there, and where was the hatchet all that time, anyway?

[camgarsky4]

Emma was likely providing 'after the fact' air cover.

During that entire morning, I think Lizzie was playing traffic controller and positioned herself in the best location to manage the situation. Since front door was securely locked and Bridget outside, I think she stationed herself in the kitchen until Bridget came back in (10-10:15ish) to get the dipper to rinse the windows. At that point, since Lizzie wasn't sure when Bridget would come in and wash interior windows and didn't want to engage in conversation, so she moved upstairs to control any movement up the stairs.

This is supported by the fact that Bridget never saw her until after the murders, but Lizzie was aware that Bridget hadn't washed the kitchen windows and Lizzie mentioned reading a magazine in the kitchen. I think most of Lizzie's inquest comments had some basis in truth.

Also repositions Lizzie upstairs for when Andrew arrived home at 10:40. I bet the time went by super fast for Lizzie. Knowing what she had done and what she would still have to do. All while nervously keeping track of Bridget's outside movements.

I find it very easy to envision Lizzie's movements, anxiety and decisions during that time.

I think the hatchet was in her bedroom where she had taken it after wiping it down.

[Steve88778]

If they were in cahoots they would be the 2 dumbest women in Massachusetts. Imagine Emma saying to Lizzie, I'll pretend to go to Fairhaven, by the way hang up your blood stained dress in plain view for the police to overlook. Then burn the dress in front of our friend Alice and a yard full of cops on Sunday -this way we can just say it was an accident.

[Beowulf]

One woman home all morning and says she has no idea who killed her parents she was on the hottest day of the year up in a hot dusty barn eating pears, looking for sinkers (and left no footprints) ain't the brightest alibi either though.

[camgarsky4]

I've haven't heard the theory that suggested Emma 'pretended' to go to Fairhaven. Since the police DIDN"T see a dress with either paint or blood hanging on a hook in the closet, pretty safe bet that Emma 'got creative' with her story. Lizzie did indeed burn the dress in the kitchen with 2 cops in the yard and Alice upstairs (initially).

Keep in mind, Lizzie has chosen to keep this stained dress for months, and only decided to destroy it the very next morning after being told she was under suspicion and no blood stained murderers clothing had been found. So definitely a risky move, but likely a smart one since she had a plausible excuse (paint stained dress) vs. if the dress had been found....how does she explain blood? She even tried to create an aura of 'after-the- fact' innocence by verbally shifting blame to Alice when she asked "why didn't you tell me I shouldn't have burned the dress" (paraphrased).

So she was definitely dumb if she burned it at that time only because she didn't want a paint stained dress around anymore. Much less dumb if she was destroying incriminating physical evidence.

[Beowulf]

I really have no idea if Emma was in on it or not. I mean I could totally believe she was not but I don't find it too far fetched because she had motive to BE in on it being that the father was going to sign over everything to the step mother, if that is true. I have always thought it odd Emma had no problem moving in with Lizzie to Maplecroft after the big possibility she was the murderer. Either she didn't believe Lizzie did it or could look the other way but why on earth didn't Emma go and get her own place, she did receive money I take it. Why didn't Emma marry? Or, if she wanted to be with family, now that hers were gone, and you might consider she was grieving their loss and wanted family, why did she stay with Lizzie so long, making her whole life there? If Lizzie became a pariah, did Emma? Did people read her trusting Lizzie meant Lizzie could really be innocent because if they did why then DID she remain a pariah? The town must've felt she was guilty to shun her, that is my thought, anyway. So what was up with Emma's own life? If my sister, whom I was very close to looked that guilty of such a horrendous murder I might have doubts she did it but I don't think I could live with her. I'd be afraid what if some day she lost her temper or had some kind of relapse into a murderous mood. Maybe you could even reason it was a good reason to think Lizzie did not do it. I don't know.

But saying all that I would love to live in Maplecroft, it's gorgeous. However the taxes are the real killers.

Oh, and yes, interesting point, she chose that day to burn the dress after having it for months. I did not consider that one. Yeah...

[Steve88778]

No not the best alibi - but the Fall River Police were just plain stupid in their detective work / securing the house and especially searching it. What police department searches on one day then resumes the search the next day - leaving any possible suspects inside to go about their normal lives, with 2 dead people on the dining room table. I still find it strange that there were a couple of heavy dresses in the closet in the back that the police did not take out - even they testified that they saw them in there. Lizzie could have walked around the house all that afternoon with the hatchet hung around her neck and all the police would want is to know how long was she in the barn and how many pears she ate.
This pathetic police department needed a fall girl, because there was a mob with tiki torches wanting answers from the Mayor / Marshall
You can stop wondering why Lizzie was aquitted...

[Beowulf]

Hahaha! So many good points. Fall River, the real keystone cops. Wear a hatchet around her neck

[camgarsky4]

I suppose we should be grateful it wasn't Sherlock Holmes and the Untouchables investigating the case....otherwise these murders wouldn't have entertained the legions of folks that it has over these many years.

[Rolie Polie]

I suppose we should be grateful it wasn't Sherlock Holmes and the Untouchables investigating the case....otherwise these murders wouldn't have entertained the legions of folks that it has over these many years.

HA HAH! There you go camgarsky4! We need a Sherlock Holmes re-enactor to 'channel' Holmes and discover something about this that everybody else has ignored all this time. That's the only way we'll get any answers: look at everything we know from a different angle and with different eyes. Turn the picture board upside down instead of right side up.