Working my way through the primary documents, so far I've gotten through the Inquest Testimonies and the Witness Statements, and now I'm about halfway through the Preliminary Hearing (up next the trial!). Early on in the hearing but well-into Dr. Dolan's testimony, in the cross-examination he's asked whether he examined any clothing from the house. The exchange reads:
"Q: Was any clothing given to you?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Who gave it to you?
A: I think Mr. Jennings.
Q: Where did he get it?
A: I don't know, he said he got it from Miss Lizzie Borden.
Q: What was it, a dress skirt and an under white skirt?
A: Yes sir and her waist.
Q: Did you examine them?
A: Yes sir.
Q: What do you mean by a waist, an outside or under waist?
A: A blouse waist.
Q: Where are those garments?
A: Prof. Wood has them all, so far as I know; I gave them to him.
Q: Did you examine those at the time?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Did you find some blood on them?
A: One blood spot on the skirt.
Q: How big was it?
A: The size of a good pin head.
Q: That is on the white underskirt?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Do you know whether it came from without, in, or from inside out?
A: From without, in.
Q: How do you know that?
A: Simply because the meshes of the cloth on the outside were filled with blood, and it had hardly penetrated on the inside.
Q: Did you look at it under a glass?
A: No sir."
(Koorey, Widows, & Koorey The Preliminary Hearing in the Lizzie Borden Case, pg. 93)
I know that the FRHS has the bedsheets Abby Borden was in the middle of putting on (along with quite a lot more). I'm wondering whether they have those garments being described here or if the whereabouts of these garments is known at all? I'm no blood analyst or anything of the kind but I imagine technology is pretty advanced today and, if the garment can be produced, an analyst could examine the blood on that petticoat and determine whether it was Abby's, Andrew's, or Lizzie's...at the very least it would be able to rule out menstrual blood as, if I'm not mistaken, was claimed by the defense.
Where is the Bloody Petticoat?
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
-
swinell
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:33 am
- Real Name: Spencer Winell
-
PossumPie
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:26 am
- Real Name: Possum Pie
Re: Where is the Bloody Petticoat?
We've been discussing menstruation in a different thread, After much analysis and discussing with some women in the forum, I don't believe menstrual blood would have any ability to be 1. pinhead small (this indicates high velocity spatter) or 2. on the outside mesh of the underskirt. It still could be coincidental, but the smaller the blood drop the faster it traveled. Menses generally is a stain not a drop.
I don't know where Lizzies' clothing is but after 100 years you may or may not be able to get DNA or Blood ABO typing out of it. Depends on the humidity and temperature that it was stored at. Theoretically it is possible to get ABO and Rh typing tying it to a member(s) of the family
I don't know where Lizzies' clothing is but after 100 years you may or may not be able to get DNA or Blood ABO typing out of it. Depends on the humidity and temperature that it was stored at. Theoretically it is possible to get ABO and Rh typing tying it to a member(s) of the family
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
-
swinell
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:33 am
- Real Name: Spencer Winell
Re: Where is the Bloody Petticoat?
Certainly an avenue worth pursuing! I'll put in a call to the historical society on Monday and see if they have the petticoats. I'm Boston-based and have some connections in Harvard + MIT, I'll check around and see if there's an analyst willing to take a day trip with me and a microscope (and whatever other tools are needed).
-
Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
Re: Where is the Bloody Petticoat?
The following articles which had been offered in evidence during the
progress of the trial were selected from among the exhibits in the case by
counsel and sent to the jury:
Plans and photographs marked as exhibits in the case.
Skulls of Mr. and Mrs. A. J. Borden.
Bedspread and pillow shams.
Handkerchief found by Mrs. Borden's body.
Piece of doorframe taken from inside of dining room.
Piece of moulding taken from guest chamber west of dressing case.
Page 1928 / i955
Piece of plaster.
Two axes.
Claw-hammer hatchet.
Hatchet with plain head.
Handleless hatchet and bit of wood.
Blue blouse and dress skirt.
White skirt.
Magnifying glass.
(At eighteen minutes before four o'clock the Court retired from the
bench.)
--Some of these artifacts survived in The Hip Bath Collection, and donated to the FRHS, although I don't see Abbie's hair switch and hair pins listed, which are in the collection.
progress of the trial were selected from among the exhibits in the case by
counsel and sent to the jury:
Plans and photographs marked as exhibits in the case.
Skulls of Mr. and Mrs. A. J. Borden.
Bedspread and pillow shams.
Handkerchief found by Mrs. Borden's body.
Piece of doorframe taken from inside of dining room.
Piece of moulding taken from guest chamber west of dressing case.
Page 1928 / i955
Piece of plaster.
Two axes.
Claw-hammer hatchet.
Hatchet with plain head.
Handleless hatchet and bit of wood.
Blue blouse and dress skirt.
White skirt.
Magnifying glass.
(At eighteen minutes before four o'clock the Court retired from the
bench.)
--Some of these artifacts survived in The Hip Bath Collection, and donated to the FRHS, although I don't see Abbie's hair switch and hair pins listed, which are in the collection.
-
swinell
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:33 am
- Real Name: Spencer Winell
Re: Where is the Bloody Petticoat?
Thank you so much, Kat!
That is good to know - that means we have the plaster with the blood spots on it to compare it to!!
That is good to know - that means we have the plaster with the blood spots on it to compare it to!!
-
Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
Re: Where is the Bloody Petticoat?
We do?
I did not know...
Note, I did say "some" artifacts...
Good luck!
I did not know...
Note, I did say "some" artifacts...
Good luck!
-
Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
Re: Where is the Bloody Petticoat?
What was listed are trial exhibits. For instance, the sofa was still around back then also, but we don't have that.
Here are the contents listed in the Hip Bath Collection. This would be closer to what was donated...(from "Proceedings"). (Plz note "in part" I have made bold)
1. "PROCEEDINGS"
The Legend 100 Years After the Crime--
A Conference on the Lizzie Borden Case
Bristol Community College, Fall River, MA
Aug. 3-5, 1992
The Hip-Bath Collection, Barbara Ashton, p211
"What Andrew Jennings decided to sequester may turn out to be as important as what he decided to reveal."
This collection was, in part, donated to the FRHS, in 1968, with some items requested returned to the (Waring) family.
Ms. Ashton, author, had a look and made some notes:
"Contents Of Collection
1. Photographs: Yard, hall, entrance hall, north side of house, Second street looking north and south, backyard between house and barn, Mrs. Churchill's front steps. guest chamber, Abby, sitting room, south side of house and south yard, Borden house (enlarged), side views of pool of blood, Mrs. Borden with feet showing, Mrs. Borden's matted switch, Andrew Borden on the horsehair couch, Andrew naked on the floor, skulls--front with hatchet marks, Mrs. Borden with huge hole in side of head, courthouse. (213)
2. Hatchet and Hood: This is the one that fit the wound and was found with a broken handle in the Borden cellar. It was never proved to be the murder weapon...
3. Tags from Trial Exhibits: They read, Stomach of Mrs. Andrew J. Borden; Stomach of Mr. Andrew J. Borden; Dried Blood, Mrs. A.J. Borden.
4. Hair Switch and Bloody Handkerchief: Worn by Mrs. Borden at the time of the murders.
5. Pillow shams and Bedspread: Taken from the bed Mrs. Borden was making when she was murdered.
6. Newspaper Clippings of the Case: In 3 scrapbooks, 2 large, i small.
7. Stenographer's Minutes of the Preliminary Trial: Five books: Edward S. Wood, Abram G. Hart, Lizzie A. Borden (sic??) Bridget Sullivan, Dr. Wiiiam A. Dolan. They are the only known copies of these minutes.
8. Blueprints of Floorplans of Borden House: Cellar, first. floor, second. floor.
9. Boston Globe: Day-to-Day Record.
10. Boston Herald: Account of the trial, brown and brittle.
11. Hair In Envelopes: Snips of hair from Mr. and Mrs. Borden.
12. Red Leather Notebooks: There were two, a thick one and a thin one. The thick one contains newspaper clippings of the case from August 4, 1892, to August 11, 1892. The thin one contains Andrew Jennings handwritten notes gathered on Lizzie's behalf." (213-4)
Here are the contents listed in the Hip Bath Collection. This would be closer to what was donated...(from "Proceedings"). (Plz note "in part" I have made bold)
1. "PROCEEDINGS"
The Legend 100 Years After the Crime--
A Conference on the Lizzie Borden Case
Bristol Community College, Fall River, MA
Aug. 3-5, 1992
The Hip-Bath Collection, Barbara Ashton, p211
"What Andrew Jennings decided to sequester may turn out to be as important as what he decided to reveal."
This collection was, in part, donated to the FRHS, in 1968, with some items requested returned to the (Waring) family.
Ms. Ashton, author, had a look and made some notes:
"Contents Of Collection
1. Photographs: Yard, hall, entrance hall, north side of house, Second street looking north and south, backyard between house and barn, Mrs. Churchill's front steps. guest chamber, Abby, sitting room, south side of house and south yard, Borden house (enlarged), side views of pool of blood, Mrs. Borden with feet showing, Mrs. Borden's matted switch, Andrew Borden on the horsehair couch, Andrew naked on the floor, skulls--front with hatchet marks, Mrs. Borden with huge hole in side of head, courthouse. (213)
2. Hatchet and Hood: This is the one that fit the wound and was found with a broken handle in the Borden cellar. It was never proved to be the murder weapon...
3. Tags from Trial Exhibits: They read, Stomach of Mrs. Andrew J. Borden; Stomach of Mr. Andrew J. Borden; Dried Blood, Mrs. A.J. Borden.
4. Hair Switch and Bloody Handkerchief: Worn by Mrs. Borden at the time of the murders.
5. Pillow shams and Bedspread: Taken from the bed Mrs. Borden was making when she was murdered.
6. Newspaper Clippings of the Case: In 3 scrapbooks, 2 large, i small.
7. Stenographer's Minutes of the Preliminary Trial: Five books: Edward S. Wood, Abram G. Hart, Lizzie A. Borden (sic??) Bridget Sullivan, Dr. Wiiiam A. Dolan. They are the only known copies of these minutes.
8. Blueprints of Floorplans of Borden House: Cellar, first. floor, second. floor.
9. Boston Globe: Day-to-Day Record.
10. Boston Herald: Account of the trial, brown and brittle.
11. Hair In Envelopes: Snips of hair from Mr. and Mrs. Borden.
12. Red Leather Notebooks: There were two, a thick one and a thin one. The thick one contains newspaper clippings of the case from August 4, 1892, to August 11, 1892. The thin one contains Andrew Jennings handwritten notes gathered on Lizzie's behalf." (213-4)