Lizzie, lesbianism and the Borden home.

[Golaszewski]

I ended up finding this site because of a link to this site on a forum where the murder case was being discussed. What I am curious about is this:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Write ... Hunter.htm

"LBVML: Your theory of the case, namely that Lizzie killed her stepmother Abby after having been unexpectedly discovered in bed with Bridget Sullivan, is a unique one and has inspired much discussion. Do you still subscribe to this scenario or have you developed another theory?"

OK, I realize this was just speculation, but let's look at this theory. There is at least some evidence that suggests Lizzie may have been a lesbian. And, if she did get caught having sex with Bridget, I can easily imagine that would have been enough to get her disinherited. I know that the house this happened in is still around, and is now a bed and breakfast. And probably at least one person posting here has actually been in that house. My question is this: I would have expected that this house would have had deadbolts or other locks that could be locked from the inside of the bedrooms. In case an intruder broke in, etc. Am I correct on that assumption and there were such locks in this house? If so, doesn't it seem all kinds of unlikely that Lizzie would have sex with Bridget and not lock the door in case her stepmother or someone else just walked in? Particularly since Lizzie would be afraid of of getting caught and being disinerited. (And, if caught Bridget surely would have been sacked on the spot, so she also would make damn sure the door was locked.)

If so, this theory about being caught engaging in lesbian sex holds little water. Any theory that relies on Lizzie being so stupid as not to just lock the door is a weak one. Particularly in light of the fact there are much better theories about the possible motive for Lizzie doing the killings. Quickly inheriting her father's and stepmother's estate being the most obvious.

Also, is there even the slightest shred of evidence that Bridget was gay? From what I read later on she got married and had kids. Of course she could have been bisexual. Or, perhaps just that she had sex with Lizzie because Lizzie was paying her for lesbian sex. Obviously, Lizzie had more money than Bridget. However, absent any evidence to the contrary, no reason to leap to the assumption Bridget would ever engage in lesbian sex.

[Nona]

Yeah, I never thought that scenerio was true either but sure would be a nice twist:)

[Nancie]

this is distasteful and ignorant, It is tedious lately
wading through so many posts like this.

[Wordweaver]

this is distasteful and ignorant, It is tedious lately wading through so many posts like this.

I'm a relatively new researcher into the case, as well as a newbie to this board. But I see quite a difference between using logic and fact to examine a published theory (particularly from an interview available on this website) and unsubstantiated scenarios rescued from impossibility only by their lack of flying saucers hurling energy bolts to slay the Bordens.

Lynn

[Kat]

I think it's a pretty good question about locking or not locking doors.
As also brought up- this is based on an Interview with an author who wrote a book with this theory.
It would be even better if Golaszewski could ask "Evan Hunter" himself about this obvious and simple question which no one asked before!

Evan Hunter replied to another question about still being interested in Lizzie and I believe he replied that he just moved on after writing the book. But didn't he also make an appearance in a video on Lizzie as well?

Well, Mr. G., if you were asking me the psychology behind 2 real people not locking the door, I'd say they wanted to be caught. Or one of them did- in order to get things finally out in the open? Or to force a confrontation?

I don't think Bridget had children from her marriage, tho maybe her husband did?

[Audrey]

Although I think Lizzie may very well have been gay I also get a bit frustrated with the constant speculation about her sexual activities.

PLENTY of lesbians and gays have grown up oppressed and depressed and they do not kill their parents... Likewise, some of them may.

To a gay person, having sexual relations with a member of their biological sex is NATURAL to them. It is as natural to them as it is for a straight person to have sex with a member of the opposite sex. Therefore-- they are a natural person. They are not mentally ill, they are not prone to violence or criminal behavior. Gay people have no more a chance of being a kleptomaniac as a straight person does. Gay men are not always better cooks and decorators than their straight counterparts.

Shockingly enough, gays do not spend an inordinate amount of time (if any) trying to coax straight people into their beds.

Lizzie never married, she has been described by many as masculine. She "hung out" with another reputed lesbian. It is a 50/50 bet she was gay. Bridget exhibits no gay signs or tendencies.

Maybe Lizzie was NEVER molested. Maybe she NEVER had a lover-- male or female. Maybe her home life was great and Andrew and Abby were as nice as they could be to her... Maybe she was just a nasty person who wanted it all her way.

Maybe she was a victim of this crime the same as the dead people were.... Maybe she spent her life in a semi-prison, not accepted, shunned and alone in her elegant home...

I would bet that Lizzie locked her door to sit in her room brooding and basting threads... If she was to be engaging in sex-- I bet she moved the chaise in front of the door for good measure...

[Allen]

To a gay person, having sexual relations with a member of their biological sex is NATURAL to them. It is as natural to them as it is for a straight person to have sex with a member of the opposite sex. Therefore-- they are a natural person.

I agree with Audrey on every point but this one. During Lizzie's time, there was definitely not anything natural about being gay. I'm not saying its wrong, I have friends and relatives who are gay and I see nothing wrong with it, what I'm saying is back then it was perceived as a SIN. It was also against the law, and it could ruin you if you were found out. How can anyone feel natural in a situation like that? Back then homosexuality was often refered to as "the thing which shall not be named." It didn't even have the name "homosexuality" until the victorian times, because no one was supposed to talk about it anyway. It was not taken lightly, it was no joking matter, it ruined good people's lives when they were found out. For no other reason than they were gay. That said I also agree that if she were...SHE'D LOCK THE DOOR? What idiot wouldn't? Married people even lock the door. I also have my doubts as to Lizzie's so called lovers and their romps in the hay. I think it's way off base. Lizzie was no Victorian Lolita.

[Nancie]

oye

[Golaszewski]

this is distasteful and ignorant, It is tedious lately wading through so many posts like this.

I'm a relatively new researcher into the case, as well as a newbie to this board. But I see quite a difference between using logic and fact to examine a published theory (particularly from an interview available on this website) and unsubstantiated scenarios rescued from impossibility only by their lack of flying saucers hurling energy bolts to slay the Bordens.

Lynn

I don't see what is particularly distasteful about this thread. Particularly in light of the fact that this is a well known, published theory. It isn't like I came up with my own purely speculative theory about Lizzie's sex life and posted it here. And note that my post was trying to cast doubt that lesbianism had anything to do with what happened. This theory presumes that Lizzie would commit a gruesome double murder because her lesbianism was found out, yet Lizzie was so foolish not to prevent this from being found out by simply locking the door. Via Occam's razor this theory about Lizzie having sex with Bridget should be discarded.

[Audrey]

It is just as much natural to the person who is gay now as it was then.... It is just a little more accepted now than it was then...

Lives are still ruined... Ask the Gov. of New Jersey.

[Allen]

Just a little more excepted now than it was then?

Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wills Wilde (October 16, 1854—November 30, 1900) was an Irish playwright, novelist, poet, and short story writer. One of the most successful playwrights of late Victorian London, and one of the greatest celebrities of his day, known for his barbed and clever wit, he suffered a dramatic downfall and was imprisoned after being convicted in a famous trial of "gross indecency" for his homosexuality.

Otherwise known as Oscar Wilde.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although married and the father of two children, Wilde's personal life was open to rumors. His years of triumph ended dramatically, when his intimate association with Alfred Douglas led to his trial on charges of homosexuality (then illegal in Britain). He was sentenced to two years hard labor for the crime of sodomy. Wilde was first in Wandsworth prison, London, and then in Reading Gaol. During this time he wrote De Profundis (1905), a dramatic monologue and autobiography, which was addressed to Alfred Douglas.

After his release in 1897 Wilde in Berneval, near Dieppe. He wrote "The Ballad of Reading Gaol", revealing his concern for inhumane prison conditions. Wilde died of cerebral meningitis on November 30, 1900, penniless, in a cheap Paris hotel at the age of 46.

http://www.online-literature.com/wilde

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Just for the record, I do not believe Lizzie ever consumated a sexual relationship with a woman. But I believe she had homosexual tendencies.

[john]

Since the theory is already out there I guess it's ok to discuss, but personally I'd consider it gay bashing. How many women or men could be convicted of homosexuality because they had friends who were good woman baseball players or guy florists if that were the measure? I'm not gay but usually I find gay people more interesting. So if I hang with a gay guy or woman does that implicate me into something?
The Fall River Historical Society has a good answer for thes question, "no evidence," although it certainly seems logical to me to discuss.

[Allen]

I'm not trying to gay bash, or start a discussion that leads to gay bashing. I find that idea appalling. What I was trying to get across, is it was thought of very differently back then than it is now. Then, yes, there was a very high descrimination against gays by all of society, and nobody thought there was anything wrong with that. Today it is a touchy subject, but it is generally accepted by society. Today gay couples can live together, get married, and even adopt children. Things are much different now then they were in Lizzie's time. Though there are still some ignorant people in the world today, thats something that will probably never change unfortunately.

[Golaszewski]

Since the theory is already out there I guess it's ok to discuss, but personally I'd consider it gay bashing. How many women or men could be convicted of homosexuality because they had friends who were good woman baseball players or guy florists if that were the measure? I'm not gay but usually I find gay people more interesting. So if I hang with a gay guy or woman does that implicate me into something?
The Fall River Historical Society has a good answer for thes question, "no evidence," although it certainly seems logical to me to discuss.

To the extent anyone considers this theory itself to be an example of gay bashing, as I am arguing this theory seems to hold little water than I am not perpetuating gay bashing.

[Wordweaver]

I don't see what is particularly distasteful about this thread.

Neither do I. Particularly given the fact that the topic of this forum is the brutal hatchet slaying of two defenseless old people, it's a bit incongruous to think that the mere mention of homosexuality might be distasteful. Although I'm not sure that's what was considered distasteful -- I'd love to have clarification on that.

I very much doubt that I am the only GLBT person on this board, but for the record, I don't think the theories that Lizzie was lesbian amount to gay-bashing. (I'm not sure what her sexuality was, if she had any orientation at all.) Accusing one lesbian of murder does not taint the rest of us by association. Is it straight-bashing to mention that Ted Bundy was heterosexual?

Lynn

[wintressanna]

I think the main problem is that since sexuality doesnt really seem to play a part in the actual murders, it is not known to be especially relevant.

Another thing, I dont think we all have to be sensitive and fret about whether or not we say something that is "gay bashing" just because the word "lesbian" or "homosexuality" is mentioned. Its OK to talk about...its just not especially fruitful to discuss where it is not known to be especially relevant.

[snokkums]

That might have been why they locked doors, other than the fact that Lizzie was a cleptomanic. But if she was caught in bed that might have be reason to cut her out of the will. That would give her reason to kill her father.

[Haulover]

i think there is a certain amount of misunderstanding running through this thread about what people said/meant/implied, etc.
_______________

back to the question of locking the door: that is a good one considering their door-locking policies. i suppose you could "plot" around the problem -- that abby suspected and was setting them up, making them think she had left the house; if she could convince them of this, even if door was locked, all abby needed to do then was hear them, find the door locked, yell at them from behind the door, etc. i haven't read the hunter novel, so i don't know exactly how he has it happen.

somehow, what this leads me to think about is the condition of the screen door that morning, which is peculiar. bridget and lizzie both claim to have used it and they get back in (not locked) -- yet andrew appears to have found it locked. so bridget leaves it unlocked while she washes windows, and locks it upon her return. which brings me to this question:

the side door appears to be andrew's preferred door. wouldn't he expect to find the screen locked on his return? during the summer, this would not be unusual, i wouldn't think. so wouldn't he normally simply knock and call out and bridget (who was herself situated to that side of the house) hear and come open it? well, if so, why didn't bridget, if she was in the sitting room, let him in from the kitchen? i mean, can't we almost presume that he could make himself easily heard to gain entry at the side door (normally, that is) -- and that going through the front would be an irritation for him? in other words......if andrew gets in and finds that bridget has been washing the sitting room windows, doesn't he ask her why she did not let him in at the back?

sorry, i guess i changed the subject.

[Golaszewski]

back to the question of locking the door: that is a good one considering their door-locking policies. i suppose you could "plot" around the problem -- that abby suspected and was setting them up, making them think she had left the house; if she could convince them of this, even if door was locked, all abby needed to do then was hear them, find the door locked, yell at them from behind the door, etc. i haven't read the hunter novel, so i don't know exactly how he has it happen.

The problem with that theory is that it presumes that Lizzie would have the presence of mind to lock the door just in case Abby might return early, yet would engage in lesbian sex with Bridget in such a noisy manner it would have been obvious even behind a locked door. There's no reason why lesbian sex can't be engaged in quietly. And since if Lizzie were discovered doing this she could easily have been disinherited she would have had every incentive to be as discreet as possible. Only way to make this theory work is that Lizzie gets sloppy, assumes Abby won't return early, and just doesn't bother locking the door. But this is a theory that relies on so many improbable assumptions little reason to embrace it. In particular, it presumes that Lizzie had an interest in lesbian sex (which is far from certain), AND also that Bridget would be similarly inclined. I am unaware of no evidence to even suggest Bridget had lesbian tendencies.

The only thing this theory has going for it is that it isn't impossible. Which doesn't say much for a theory.

[snokkums]

I think you are right. If she was having lesbain sex, she'd have to be very quiet about it. She could have been disinherited and don't think she would want that .

[snokkums]

I think she could have been bisexual. Or she was trying out the gay thing to see how it was. But who knows? She may or may not have been gay, bi, or whatever.
As to the doors having locks as in the first thread. Yes there were locks on the bedroom doors. Or at least on Andrews door. Someone had stolen some things in his room and abbys room a few months prior to his murder.

[snokkums]

I think she could have been bisexual. Or she was trying out the gay thing to see how it was. But who knows? She may or may not have been gay, bi, or whatever.
As to the doors having locks as in the first thread. Yes there were locks on the bedroom doors. Or at least on Andrews door. Someone had stolen some things in his room and abbys room a few months prior to his murder.

[snokkums]

sorry about posting the same thread twice. hit the bottome one to many times OPPS!

[Kat]

The house robbery was a year before. It's OK to hit the wrong button here, but what have you read?

[Audrey]

Is it possible that Lizzie was actually bilingual and people got it mixed up over the years to mean she was bisexual?

She did go to Europe...... I hear all sorts of scandalous stuff takes place there.

[Golaszewski]

This is interesting. Take a look at:

viewtopic.php?t=833&start=25

Specifically the post by Kat dated Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:51 am. This is a Chicago Tribune news report claiming Lizzie was enganged to be wed to an Orin Gardner in late 1986. Unless the Chicago Tribune had a bogus source, this news report casts *serious* doubts about Lizzie being a lesbian.

[Allen]

I'm inclined to believe it was a rumor that got picked up by the press and blown out of proportion. Otherwise, why was there no marriage? Or even an engagement for that matter?

[Kat]

Er, 1896.

All From SPIERING:

"But the press would not leave her alone. On December 10, 1896, a brief article which appeared in the Boston Globe was picked up by newspapers throughout the country:"

'IS LIZZIE BORDEN TO MARRY?

Fall River, Mass., Dec. 10--Friends of Lizzie Andrew Borden, who was once accused of the murder of her father and stepmother and whose trial was one of the most famous the country has known, are congratulating her upon the approach of her marriage. The husband-to-be is one Mr. Gardner, a school teacher of the village of Swansea, which lies a few miles across the bay to the west of the city. He has been a friend of Miss Borden since childhood days, which they spent upon adjoining farms. The engagement has been rumored about for weeks, but it lacked confirmation until a few days ago, when it was learned that Miss Borden has given to a well-known dressmaker an order for a trousseau. Mr. Gardner has had erected in South Somerset a fine new house. It is said that the wedding will probably take place about Christmas.'

The residents of the farm adjacent to the one which Andrew Borden had owned in Swansea were named Gardner. And the eldest son was a school teacher. But the story of Lizzie's romance and impending marriage had been fabricated.

Soon after the article appeared, reporters from out-of-town newspapers flooded Fall River.

Gardner went into hiding and Lizzie withdrew behind the oak doors of Maplecroft, where she was constantly harassed. The incident infuriated and disturbed her. Two days later she wrote to Mrs. Cummings, the dressmaker Emma had written to earlier. The letter's significance was that it revealed the strain Lizzie was under.

It was from Mrs. Cummings, whose shop on Elm Street stood beside Andrew Borden's Union Savings Bank, that Lizzie supposedly had ordered her wedding gown.

'My dear Friend
I am more sorry than I can tell you that you have had any trouble over the false and silly story that has been about the last week or so. How or when it started I have not the least idea. But never for a moment did I think you or your girls started it. Of course I am feeling very badly about it but I must just bear as I have in the past. I do hope you will not be annoyed again. Take care of yourself, so you can get well.
Yours sincerely
L. A. Borden
Dec. 12, 1896' "

[Wordweaver]

Is it possible that Lizzie was actually bilingual and people got it mixed up over the years to mean she was bisexual?

She did go to Europe...... I hear all sorts of scandalous stuff takes place there.

It does indeed. As Saki said, a mere decade or so after the incident in Fall River:

"My idea about the lecture," resumed the Duchess hurriedly, "is to inquire whether promiscuous Continental travel doesn't tend to weaken the moral fibre of the social conscience. There are people one knows, quite nice people when they are in England, who are so different when they are anywhere the other side of the Channel."

"The people with what I call Tauchnitz morals," observed Reginald. "On the whole, I think they get the best of two very desirable worlds. And, after all, they charge so much for excess luggage on some of those foreign lines that it's really an economy to leave one's reputation behind one occasionally."

"A scandal, my dear Reginald, is as much to be avoided at Monaco or any of those places as at Exeter, let us say."

"Scandal . . . is merely the compassionate allowance which the gay make to the humdrum. Think how many blameless lives are brightened by the blazing indiscretions of other people."

Lynn

[Golaszewski]

'My dear Friend
I am more sorry than I can tell you that you have had any trouble over the false and silly story that has been about the last week or so. How or when it started I have not the least idea. But never for a moment did I think you or your girls started it. Of course I am feeling very badly about it but I must just bear as I have in the past. I do hope you will not be annoyed again. Take care of yourself, so you can get well.
Yours sincerely
L. A. Borden
Dec. 12, 1896' "

I guess that the source was bogus, and Lizzie's sexual preference is still up in the air. And, I was only off be a measly 90 years. Insignificant in a universe that is 15 billion or so years old.

[Kat]

Yes, I do it all the time and it's always pointed out to me so join the club - couldn't resist
And notice Lizzie's martyr complex