Hi! I'm new here

shank · Post by **shank** » Wed May 11, 2005 5:28 pm

Hi, I found this site when i was searching about Lizzie Borden, and i think it's terrible of what happend. Is everyone here interested in the victorian era? I love the victorian era! So are there any ghosts at Lizzie Borden's house? Sometime i would like to stay overnite there, that would be cool! well, just wanted to say hi and maybe i'll post questions about Lizzie.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Wed May 11, 2005 5:33 pm

Nice to meet you and welcome aboard. Yes we love the Victorian era too. There are ghosts at the house on 2nd st. I'd gladly go with with an ok from my mom to stay and it would indeed be neat.

Gald to hear from ya and don't be shy (that never got anybody anywhere trust me)
look around and we'll be here if you need us for whatever purpose.

looking forward to hear from you.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 12, 2005 2:57 am

Hello!
Do you know anything about the case? What have you read?

shank · Post by **shank** » Thu May 12, 2005 4:41 am

Hi, I don't know much about the case, just what i've seen on t.v. about different murder mysteries that was never solved. I'm just into the victorian era and how america lived and what the murder scene was like after it happend. aside from Lizzie, am i aloud to post questions about the victorian era in general?

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Thu May 12, 2005 7:30 pm

Y&es in the life in victorian era forum

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 12, 2005 11:54 pm

"Life in Victorian America
Here is where you can discuss anything Victorian!"

That section is on the first page here.

You could try your local library if you find you are more interested but don't wish to spend money on a "Lizzie" book.

My local library has Brown, Spiering, and Lincoln!
Yikes!

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Fri May 13, 2005 3:09 pm

mine has none but spiering but that does not even begin to include the one growing in my room

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Fri May 13, 2005 3:10 pm

it's a "books-a-million" store

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat May 14, 2005 8:27 pm

"Shank" - that's an unusual user name. What's the significance, if I may ask?

shank · Post by **shank** » Sun May 15, 2005 11:19 pm

It's my last name.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Mon May 16, 2005 3:08 pm

Strange last name

what's the first

shank · Post by **shank** » Mon May 16, 2005 8:22 pm

My first name is Jacob. My last name was a bit longer at one time when my great grandparents came to the U.S. from europe. My last name was called Shankowski, but it was shortened to Shank because of the U.S. military.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Mon May 16, 2005 9:16 pm

coolie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 17, 2005 1:17 am

Thanks for being patient, Jacob.
What are your interests in Victoriana?

shank · Post by **shank** » Tue May 17, 2005 9:16 pm

Well, i'm interested in the clothes that they wore, and i love the victorian houses and just the general charm of the era. I also have on CD real recordings of the late 1880's and early 1890's, and i have some recordings of real victorian classical violinists that was recorded around 1905, they were born around when lizzie was born. And i love to read the books that was published in the victorian era, like i have an old magazine from the year 1877! Also my aunt who lives in ohio loves the victorians, too. Sometime, i would love to buy a victorian house. BTW, i love the old west, too!

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 17, 2005 9:36 pm

Gee your like me

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 18, 2005 2:57 am

Those recordings must be neat! Do you collect or did you inherit them? I don't think I've heard anything quite that early as a recording!
Around our house, we grew up with a lot of turn-of-the-century books! I think we inherited them from my mother's grandmother and I think others were bought at antique stores or used book stores very cheaply in the 1950's and 1960's.
When I was little I drew in some of them. I never got in trouble for it tho.
I grew up reading those old books - a lot of old books!

shank · Post by **shank** » Wed May 18, 2005 3:35 am

I do collect, the site where i got the late 1880's and early 1890's recordings is from www.tinfoil.com, they try to preserve the recordings is to put them on CD. The earliest recording they have is from 1878, but it's just a guy trying to be a talking clock. It's very interesting! It's pop music of the time. And the victorian classical violinists CD i got from amazon.com. I love to collect antiques, but i don't have alot. The oldest books i have is from 1853, 1869 and 1877.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 18, 2005 7:41 pm

I went to the site tinfoil last night and listened to a song.
Then I tried to find our link to The Fall River Line song which should be stored around here somewhere and couldn't find it!

Are there any Victorian sites you like that we might not have seen?
(Have you looked at any of the Victorian links we have in the Links Department?)

shank · Post by **shank** » Thu May 19, 2005 12:23 am

Glad you like the tinfoil site! There is one victorian site i went on before i came here, i don't know the web address, but it's about victorian clothes. I'll have Google it to find the web site. I didn't notice the victorian links, i'll have to check it out.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 19, 2005 3:47 am

There's a Christmas Music Oldies ilink in LINKS here.
Then try the Archives.

At the top of the first page of this Forum there it says
Lizzie Borden Society Archives.
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/archive.htm

You can click on "Life In Victorian America" or "Links."
(We are not always consistent..)

Pleae scroll down as you use the archives because they are arranged for storage by dates.

shank · Post by **shank** » Thu May 19, 2005 10:41 pm

Thanks for the archives! I'm getting used to navigating this site. The links of other victorian sites were very interesting! Here is a link to the town i grew up in ohio! It's a 19th-century town. And it has alot of history! I miss it there! The link is http://users.1st.net/gudzent/

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri May 20, 2005 2:20 am

Oh that's a nice place!
I've been to Ohio a lot- this is pretty.
Thanks for the link!

I see it mentions The Society of Friends. Our Borden's forefathers were all Quakers in very good standing!

I'm trying to find the "Old Fall River Line" music and I retrieved the words, but the Marine Museum site is temporarily closed. Bummer!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

This link is from Allen/Melissa. It's really cool too!

http://www.besmark.com/christms.html

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri May 20, 2005 5:22 pm

I happen to like Christmas music all year 'round!

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Fri May 20, 2005 6:14 pm

Me too

shank · Post by **shank** » Sat May 21, 2005 12:47 am

Thanks for the link to the victorian christmas music! I might buy a CD for christmas to listen to. I'm glad you like the site of the town i grew up in! Maybe i'll move back there from phoenix. The bordens forfathers were quakers? That sounds cool! I never knew that. In a near by town where i'm from, there is a nice victorian house there! when i was a kid, we used to drive by there and i used to look at it all the time! The link is www.eckharthouse.com. I would love to own this house! Does Fall River have alot of victorian houses?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 21, 2005 3:57 am

Anyone know if Fall River still has Victorian Houses?

I was studying the Bordens from the 1600's. In fact, it's taken me several days just to hit 1700!
This time period was so close still to the Pilgrims at Plymouth Rock.
I found our Richard Borden buying land from heirs of Edward Gray of Plymouth, c. around 1714.
Richard was the forefather of Andrew Borden.

Now, our mother used to say that her side of the family came over on the Mayflower. But I had lately found a document which listed the passenger names and any of her family name was not on there. I checked into the 3rd generation and there was her ancestor! It turns out he married a granddaughter of the Mayflower passenger!. This man was Edward Gray! So Andrew's forefather bought land from my sister and my forefather!

I love this stuff!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 21, 2005 4:10 am

That picture of the Eckarthouse is neat! I like the characters in period dress.
My visits to Ohio were mainly to Medina.
Home of Jeffery Dahmer. Well, I mean I didn't visit his home- it's just a coincidence that he went to the same high school as my second cousin, at an earlier date. We visited family there a lot.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Sat May 21, 2005 4:01 pm

[quote="Kat @ Sat May 21, 2005 3:57 am"]Anyone know if Fall River still has Victorian Houses?

So Andrew's forefather bought land from my sister and my forefather!

That is so cool

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 21, 2005 4:08 pm

Now that I read it again, it sounds like Richard Borden bought land from my sister and land from my forefather! Ooops!

It's interesting how an old family story can be traced to its root. Like we weren't on the Mayflower but married into the Mayflower family at granddaughter level.

Does anyone need a Mayflower list?

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Sat May 21, 2005 4:15 pm

It would be helpful

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat May 21, 2005 4:24 pm

THANKS Kat ! That would be great !

Tracy...

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Sat May 21, 2005 8:58 pm

Kat @ Sat May 21, 2005 12:57 am wrote:I was studying the Bordens from the 1600's. In fact, it's taken me several days just to hit 1700!
This time period was so close still to the Pilgrims at Plymouth Rock.
I found our Richard Borden buying land from heirs of Edward Gray of Plymouth, c. around 1714.
Richard was the forefather of Andrew Borden.

Now, our mother used to say that her side of the family came over on the Mayflower. But I had lately found a document which listed the passenger names and any of her family name was not on there. I checked into the 3rd generation and there was her ancestor! It turns out he married a granddaughter of the Mayflower passenger!. This man was Edward Gray! So Andrew's forefather bought land from my sister and my forefather!

I love this stuff!

I love this stuff too. Which Mayflower family are you kin to?The Kendalls married into the Alden line, which explains my middle name.

I'd be fascinated to see the early Borden information. Are you writing an article?

Lynn

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 21, 2005 11:47 pm

Actually, yes, I am working on a textual treatment, but I also enjoy drawing the tree, so I will include that. I have several sources now, so I can give a decent accounting starting with the first Bordens who came here.
There is a Jew Jersey connection, and a Virginia connection.
Thank goodness these *someones* gathered this information!

If you go to "Stay To Tea" I put the 12 pages of the Mayflower booklet there.
We are 3rd gen.= Gray (147), married into Winslow (71), who married into Chilton (7).

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun May 22, 2005 5:48 am

Well, I was happily chipping my way into the 3rd decade of the 1700's until I ran into a document which went back to 1370, so I went ww--aaa--yyy back there, and just got out!
I went from 1370/80 to almost where I left off cataloguing Richard & Joan Borden's children c. mid 1600's!
Whew! And I left my lawn sprinkler on for 3 hours!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun May 22, 2005 11:58 am

THANK YOU for all of your hard work Kat ! This is some great information !

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 23, 2005 1:40 am

I can only thank those who went before- who took the time to compile information.

BTW: I recently heard that when the Mormons gather genealogical information and publish it they are offering the family names as converts without their permission. Has anyone heard this? (In an attempt to *save* these people).

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon May 23, 2005 6:30 am

You may be talking about what the Mormons call "baptism for the dead"...But, I will check with one of the ladies I teach with. She is Mormon and BIG TIME into genealogy. She had traced some of her genealogy back to the 1400's-1500's.

Tracy...

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon May 23, 2005 10:57 pm

OK...here's the scoop.

What they do is get it all set up so that if the relative who has died decides (while they are on the other side) to 'accept' the Mormon faith/beliefs, they can. They believe the 'set-up' work must occur here...and that the 'acceptance' can occur either here or "on the other side". They are not considered members of the Mormon church unless they accept the faith and since there's no way of knowing if they 'accept' or not...they are not officially placed on the church rolls. They feel that once they have offerd someone (dead or alive) 'the plan of salvation'...it's between that person and the Lord.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 24, 2005 2:51 am

Thanks. That sounds like it's still a bit open to interpretation- that missionaries might get a bit over-zealous and go further in their beliefs- but I guess that can happen in any sphere of dedication.
Hmmm...I suppose they would think that no one would turn them down.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue May 24, 2005 6:53 am

Yes...there are 'ethical' decisions involved in setting up 'the work'. For instance how closely they are related to the person they want to set up the work for, or IF they are related to them, or if it is someone who has passed...how long it has been since their death. I am sure some may want to stretch the rules a bit in order to think they have 'saved' someone, but that would make what ever they had done, technically 'invalid' according to official LDS church policy.

I have spent a bit of time on the phone and in face to face conversation with the lady I work with to verify what I am saying and make sure I am posting as accurate information as possible.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 24, 2005 5:07 pm

Thanks again, Tracy. It's a learning experience. I appreciate it.
It's probably better for the answer to come from a live person, after all.
I thought my friend may have slightly misinterpreted what she heard, saw or was told.

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Wed May 25, 2005 8:35 am

Wll Jacob, greetings and saluations.!!

I can see you will fit right in here....! YOu are surrounded by many who know much about your favorite era! I have learned so much from these wonderful people on this forum.Im sure everyone will add and deepen your appreciation:)

My best advice is study the archives:)!!! Most of the basics are all covered there already I promisde it will help:)

Again welcome

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 25, 2005 8:34 pm

Hi Nona!
You have such nice enthusiasm!

shank · Post by **shank** » Wed May 25, 2005 8:54 pm

Nona, Thanks! I've always loved the victorian era since i was a kid! I've always been enchanted by what they wore and the styles of the victorian houses. Maybe it's because i grew up in a 19th-century town. My mom don't understand why i like the victorian era so much, she hates the victorian era.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Wed May 25, 2005 8:57 pm

Don't feel bad my mom hates me for my obsession

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Wed May 25, 2005 9:39 pm

Hey all there are lots worse things to be obsessed about........:) Although, honestly I told my parents I was intrested in the time period. (I went looking for flat irons when I was on vacation and found some:) Of course I said nothing of of my obsession for the Lizzie Borden Murders....my parents would think I was gonna try to off them....lol. They take things to personally:)

Definitly enthusiastic, Im glad to be home:) and back in forum.I was Jonsing without this group!

beckygoddess · Post by **beckygoddess** » Sun May 29, 2005 9:47 pm

I assume this is where new posters introduce themselves, but I'm not exactly new to reading the posts as I've been a "lurker" for some time and only signed up a while back.

My interest in the Borden case began in 1968 when my husband and I were in Fall River. He was at a business conference in Providence and I was doing research into the textile industry and mills (19th and early 20th centuries) for a museum exhibit in NYC. Studying and recording my notes of documents, photographs, journals, private correspondence, billheads, newspaper articles, etc. at the FRHS led me to the Borden case. I went back two more days just to research what they had. Since then I have been an avid collector and researcher on the case and been back to FR many, many times. I even talked my husband into attending the Conference at Bristol Community College in 1992.

I am of the opinion that Lizzie did it - all by herself - and had phenomenal good luck from beginning to end. I also believe that had the proper pharmeceuticals been taken by Lizzie, Andrew and Abby may have died peacefully in their beds. I think Lizzie suffered from depression as well as anxiety disorder those last two years prior to the murders.

I have this image of Emma holding a 3 or 4 year old Lizzie on her lap on the bed they probbably shared on Ferry Street, holding a picture of Sarah Morse Borden, saying: "That's our real mother, Lizzie. She loved you very much." There's a newspaper account in one of the published books that gives a description of Lizzie at the Morgan Street School (grammar school) wherein its stated she was not fond of her mother and said mean things of her - even then. I believe Emma blocked Lizzie from developing a loving relationship with Abby, the poor soul, who never had a chance. By the time Emma went away to a seminary, little Lizzie's mind was already poisoned.

The Lizzie/Lisbeth of Maplecroft was a different woman than the Lizzie of Second Street. But then again, don't we all seem to change a little for each decade we are on this planet? :)

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Sun May 29, 2005 10:02 pm

Oh no we have a nother Lizzie critic but I beleive you are right when Abby had no chance