Lizzie's PMS

[augusta]

Why do I always read that Lizzie had PMS at the time of the murders? She didn't. PMS stands for "PRE- menstrual syndrome". Once you start, you don't have PMS anymore. She was not in a "pre" menstrual stage on August 4th. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

[Bob Gutowski]

I don't even think she was HAVING her period that week; I just think that was a convenient explanation for buckets full of bloody cloths, and spots of blood on starched slips. When Lincoln says, supporting her temporal lobe theory, "It was a matter of court record" I now think "Oh, did they physically verify that - in 1892?"

[Kat]

Actually, there's a possibility the murders were planned for when Lizzie was having her period- it would then be really convenient to have that bloody pail.
Since the Prosecution at the Preliminary would not stipulate as to the bloody pail, it leaves an impression that they were awaiting proof from possibly the Matron at the jail.
I think, in a capital murder case, this would be something that was important enough to verify.

In the Sarah Cornell case there was more than an adequate amount of testimony as to her menses, proven in court thru witnesses. This was important because she was pregnant when she was killed and after examination of the dead fetus, the state had to figure out about when that pregnancy occurred. And that was in 1833. A capital murder case.

[augusta]

That's true, Bob. Maybe she wasn't even having it at all.

I don't know if they could actually plan the murder for when she had it. Even if one is regular like clockwork, there's still a chance one could be late.

What is really bizarre is that they would not talk about 'such things', but there's a bucket full of (supposedly) Lizzie's soiled stuff right in the kitchen in front of God and everybody. And it had been sitting there a couple days, in the heat?

I dunno. In the 1980's I wouldn't want my father seeing that!

Today it seems incredible that Dr. Bowen's word was taken for it by the police. Maybe Bowen believed it was all Lizzie's in the bucket. He was quite shaken, I believe, that day. And he seemed to be protective of Lizzie because of their long friendship. If Lizzie said that was hers, I don't think Dr. Bowen would have examined her to make sure, unless he was forced. And nobody forced him to. He was well respected in Fall River, I think. And if he told the cops something was so, they took his word for it.

The police force back then weren't made up of stupid men. They just had no training and lacked the coordination that later came into being.

I don't think an exam by a police matron would have done any good. Wasn't Lizzie arrested like a week after the murders? Right after she testified at the inquest on the second day?

[Kat]

A bucket was set down in the kitchen according to Bridget but we don't know if it was that bucket, and we do know Thursday it was in the cellar. I don't know about days in the kitchen. Recall we discussed this before and Edisto brought up this very thing?

I didn't mean to imply Lizzie was examined personally by anyone- I meant the jail matron would be in the know as to Lizzie's next period.
The timing fits- within a few days- if Lizzie was late by a day or two, starting around the last day or the day after the end of the Preliminary Hearing. By the time of the trial the State did not argue about that bucket so it implies Lizzie's menses had been noted and pretty much on time.

My point has always been that they did talk about this stuff in court , even in 1833.

[Bob Gutowski]

Yes, I saw what you were going for in that post, my dear!

[Kat]

"Wasn't Lizzie arrested like a week after the murders? Right after she testified at the inquest on the second day?"

Yes that's right that she was arrested right after the Inquest and it was just a week later after the crime- but it was on the 3rd day, the 11th.
She stayed overnight in the Fall River jail, was arraigned on Friday on "probable cause", and then sent to Taunton, Friday.
She was returned to Fall River for the preliminary on August 22nd, but the hearing was postponed until the 25th.

If Lizzie had a period which was stipulated in court by both sides as ending on Wednesday night, August 3rd, it would have begun probably around July 28th. It would begin again around the 24th of August, but could very possibly be late due to the extreme stress of her ordeal. But by the end of the day, September 1st, Lizzie could possibly be back on cycle. Give or take a day or two either way, before her period would start to when it would end and the possibility that she had a less normal cycle of 29-30 days, and it is possible that this was noted to the satisfaction of the state and it was their problem that they did not yet have any tests to prove whose blood was there in the pail- it could be co-mingled blood.

[Kat]

1892 calendar
You too can plot Lizzie's menstrual cycle! What fun!

[Haulover]

i forget the source, but somewhere (maybe the witness statements) somebody mentioned bloody rags in the cellar and somebody said that dr bowen said that that was all right. but it wasnt' long before there was so much dabbling in blood and washing of hands, etc. who could look at a bloody basin or rag and say where it came from? i mean to say, lizzie's period could only confuse but never clarify anything. or is it even necessary to say this?

[Kat]

Yes that's one way of looking at a bloody pail... I guess Augusta's original point was that Lizzie wasn't in PMS during the murders. If we have proven her period, then that is true.

[augusta]

Kat - It is interesting that in 1833 they talked openly about this in the court. I would think it was because a big part of the case involved the pregnancy (?). There was some talk of Lizzie's period in the court transcripts. Wasn't that mostly to substantiate where that pin-sized dot of blood on the underskirt came from?

Did they talk about the bucket in the transcripts (prelim or trial)?

For some reason I have it in my mind that there was a bucket of stuff in the kitchen. Or am I thinking of a comment one of them said that there WAS a bucket in the kitchen prior to that Thursday? I remember talking about this a long time ago on here. I think I'll visit the archives.

Very interesting about when Lizzie's next one should fall. Did anybody back then ever say when she next started, or had the one after that? Yes, the matron would have known.

Haulover, your post makes me think - If the cops did take the bucket and had it analyzed, could they have differentiated between Lizzie's 'stuff' and the blood from the victims back then? OR, if Lizzie had no stuff in it at all, could they have been able to say, "This is all Andrew and Abby's," ?

Incredible that Dr. Bowen was able to wave them away from the bucket by just his word. Did no one go back to get it later? Was that what Lizzie was doing in the basement that night? Washing that bucket out?

Yes, Kat - that was my point in my first post, that the Legend says Lizzie was having PMS, and she really wasn't.

[Haulover]

obviously men don't "understand" this subject. nor do we want to. which seems to be the general attitude of the men working on the case. all i know is what i've had to know -- that it takes about a week and the "physical manifestation" "fades" during the period so that intimacy in the latter part is not necessarily a problem even before it's "officially" "over." which i guess amounts to a big "DUH" on my part.

what i don't understand -- referring back to bob's comment -- is how the women can speak knowledgeably about this where lizzie is concerned. how can anybody know anything about it? i know robinson spoke about it in opening and/or closing -- obviously to explain away any connection between lizzie and blood and the murders. it does occur to me that IF blood had been found on a dress -- then this issue would have been a big one. how could anyone have "checked" lizzie? it looks to me like she was taken at her word -- and i notice it did not take her long to let bowen know about it.

i guess what i'm getting at is -- what are we trying to get at when we discuss it? actually, we don't altogether -- the women discuss it. but how do the facts of lizzie's "monthly sickness" bear on the case toward a solution? i still don't understand this. but perhaps i should say, nevermind.

for some reason, this comes to mind: in the movie, elizabeth montgomery does not play the murderess as one deranged or PMS-afflicted. she plays a cold-blooded calculating "i'm smilingly calm as i hate you" killer when she kills abby. there is a slight change when she kills andrew -- she seems to have a slight regret about it but her mind is irrevocably made up. elizabeth montgomery is not playing someone having a "brown out" -- she's showing us she is a natural born killer.

[FairhavenGuy]

It's impossible to disagree with Augusta's conclusion that no woman can suffer from PMS at the end of her period. The claim is, I think, that Lizzie's ended on Wednesday, August 3. PMS would have been in the week before the period not on the day after it.

I cannot agree with Bob that Lizzie may not have had her period at all that week. One must remember that there is Bridget and the laundry to contend with. Lizzie's claim of having her period earlier in the week could be matched with what Bridget may or may not say about the presence of bloody cloths in the cellar.

There is a bit of a puzzle about why Lizzie didn't claim it had continued into Thursday, which would have better explained bloody stuff. The only explanation is that in those days women might have been thought to be more "unbalanced" during the period. So claiming it had ended on Wednesday cleared Lizzie of being emotionally unstable, yet allowed that there still could have been bloody buckets here and there about the house.

[Kat]

The fact that by trial both sides stipulated that Lizzie's period ended on Wednesday shows there was some proof forethcoming.

The main reasons for wondering about Lizzie's period at that time would be because there were people murdered and here was a bucket with bloody cloths and because also there were hints and then insinuations in the papers that Lizzie was pregnant. Remember Trickey-McHenry?

She would need menses cloths in jail and so the matron would provide that or Emma bring them from home. In jail Lizzie's laundry would be done, as it was at home, and then there would be proof-
Proof of her cycle being the reason for the bloody bucket and proof that she was not pregnant.

[Kat]

Here is the question by Edisto and Harry's reply. Consider this to be all in quotes- it is quoting them:


9. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by edisto on Jul-1st-02 at 11:28 AM
In response to Message #8.


Can someone tell me where to find the information that Lizzie's menstrual pads were kept in a bucket in the kitchen? I thought the bucket was in the cellar - in fact, in proximity to where Lizzie went that night when she visited the cellar alone. This was brought up on the other board, and I researched it and couldn't find anything about the pail being in the kitchen. I don't recall that anyone provided a source for the information.

10. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by harry on Jul-1st-02 at 11:41 AM
In response to Message #9.


I don't know whether the menstrual pads were in Lizzie's slop bucket but this is from Bridget's testimony at the trial (page 224):

Q. About how long was it after Mr. Morse went that Miss Lizzie Borden came?
A. I don't know how long it was. It was no more than five minutes, I don't think. I don't remember how the time was.

Q. When she came, into which room did she come? Where did you first see her?
A. The kitchen.

Q. From what room did she come?
A. From the sitting-room.

Q. What did she do?
A. She came through the kitchen and she left down the slop pail, and I asked her what did she want for breakfast. She said she didn't know as she wanted any breakfast, but she guessed she would have something, she would have some coffee and cookies.

This may be the source of that information.

[Kat]

Here, Augusta, is the answer to your wondering about Bowen's word being taken as to the bucket.

18. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Kat on Jul-2nd-02 at 6:45 PM
In response to Message #16.


Dr. Dolan Testifies - Preliminary Hearing
Questioned by Mr. Adams
Bloody Cloths
Pg. 188 -189

Q: Do you remember a pail in the cellar?

A: Yes Sir

Q: And were there some clothes or napkins in that pail?

A: Yes Sir, three.

Q: Did you examine them?

A: I examined them casually.

Q: Did you take them?

A: No sir.

Q: Were they taken by anybody?

A: By the officer, officer Mullaly I think I told to take them.

Q: What was subsequently done with them, if you know?

A: Nothing; they were left down stairs in the marshal’s office, and nothing further done with them.

Q: Did you examine them?

A: Yes Sir

Q: Did you become satisfied that they had no connection with this case?

A: Yes Sir

MR. KNOWLTON: "We claim nothing at present."

--They were removed from the premises- they were examined by Dolan, and here shows that the prosecution does not make any claim yet as to what they were for.

[Kat]

Lizzie says eventually that she went down to the cellar- probably somewhere between 8:55 a.m. and 9:05 a.m.?
And the bucket was found in the cellar later that day.

I've thought the bucket probaly made it down cellar with Lizzie her first trip that morning.

As Harry said, and I said earlier- we don't know if that bucket which was set down in the kitchen was the bloody bucket, tho.

[MysteryReader]

Why do I always read that Lizzie had PMS at the time of the murders? She didn't. PMS stands for "PRE- menstrual syndrome". Once you start, you don't have PMS anymore. She was not in a "pre" menstrual stage on August 4th. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

I have to say that I didn't read the entire thread but it may not have been PMS - I'm trying to put this delicately but peri-menopause has the exact same symptoms as PMS and I should know but it can be mistaken for PMS.

[Curryong]

Quite right MysteryReader. There seems to have been among some writers on the case an urge to push the scenario that Lizzie may have been in some sort of a fuzzy, muddled phase due to her physical condition in the run-up to the murders, and that was why she wasn't thinking clearly when/if she committed them. Rubbish, sez I. Of course Victoria Lincoln insisted that Lizzie's epileptic condition was connected to her 'time of the month' too.

[MysteryReader]

Isn't it grand to be a female where everything is blamed on that time of the month?

[Curryong]

Yes, males generally just roll their eyes and probably the detectives did too.

[MysteryReader]