Headed to Lizzie's !!!

[Kat]

Wowee! Those are fabulous! Thanks! Do you have more than one of the courtroom?

[theebmonique]

Kat,

I WISH I had more ! This was the last one I got before the camera battery died. It should have been fully charged, but for some reason it dies early. I guess I will just have to FORCE myself to go to Lizzie's again !

Tracy...

[theebmonique]

FairhavenGuy,

I did think that for what I saw of Fairhaven, it was very nice. It seemed to be a town I could be very comfortable living in. I wonder what kind of price the Brownell house would go for ?

Tracy...

[FairhavenGuy]

Fairhaven is a great town to live in, if I do say so myself. The value of the Brownell house is hard to figure, because it's in disrepair, it's just outside of the "pricey" part of the center and it's on a block with some multi-family houses. In very good repair and a block further south, probably in the $350,000 range. In its location and with new front steps thrown on, wild guess would be around $225,000. But it's so hard to tell right now. There are a few houses in that general vicinity that are larger and well taken care of that have asking prices of $495,000 to $549,000.

[Nancie]

thanks for the pix Tracy! The price of homes is
obscence, how can a young couple buy a home?
My son and D in law were over tonight, they helped
move their friends in new home all day. Tristy said it was a dump, needed so much work, yet their friends paid 300,000 for it. very disheartening.
My son and Tristy are only pre-qualified for $250,000, and they both have great jobs! I might bite the bullet and suggest they move back to Vermont to raise their family!

[FairhavenGuy]

As far as home prices in Fairhaven go, we've been low for a long time, considering we're on the shore of Buzzard's Bay and can see Cape Cod from some of the eastern shores in town. About ten years ago $250,000 would get you a solid, authentic ca. 1770 colonial with seven fireplaces, located across the street from the harbor in a very "Nantucket" part of town. That would go for about $400,000 now.

Still $250,000 can get you a nicely maintained three-bedroom cottage in many parts of town, though the prices are creeping up. We bought our ca. 1929, two-bedroom home on Main Street across the street from a church for $115,000 five and a half years ago. We had it reappraised last summer and it was valued at $184,000.

[Kat]

Thanks again Tracy!

[theebmonique]

You are welcome Kat. I had fun taking the pictures, and even more fun learning more about Lizzie.

Tracy...

[Mark A.]

Tracy, excellent pics! Very well taken & clear. I love the one of you sitting in the courtroom. I had jury duty in that courtroom once. I was estatic while everyone else was grumbling about being there. The one of you sprawled out in back of Lizbeth's headstone was cool. That would have been something to come across you laying on Lizzies grave on a sunny spring afternoon. believe it or not, I have seen stranger things in Fall River.
Please post all trhe pics you can. I enjoyed them. I live here in Fall River yet I was still looking foward to more pics. Keep them coming & i'm glad you enjoyed your stay here.

[theebmonique]

Thank you Mark ! Next time I come to Fall River we will have to meet up. I will see what other pictures I can find. I need to figure out how to get them in "personal gallery" part of this forum.

Tracy...

[Harry]

OK, now THIS house is the one I am not sure "who" it belonged to. For some reason I want to say Knowlton, but I could be way off. Anybody recognize it ???

Was this house in New Bedford, Tracy? Knowlton did live there and had a summer home in Marion.

[theebmonique]

Harry,

I think this house was in Fairhaven. If I remember right, it was not too far from the Brownell house. I am kicking myself for not taking notes. If we can't figure it out here, I will contact Mr. Rebello. He will remember.

Tracy...

[Harry]

Fairhavenguy, this sounds like a question for you.

[FairhavenGuy]

Yeah. Unfortunately, there are probably a couple hundred houses that look similar to that one in Fairhaven. Unless there's a street address, I can't tell much about it.

It could be another house on Green Street that Capt. Delano moved into after the death of his wife. The only other thing I can think of is that it may be the house where Emma stayed for a couple of days during the trial. That was on Union Street, but I forget the modern street number. Again, if Tracy or Mr. Rebello has the modern street number, I could tell you more.

The only other cool Lizzie connection here that I know of is that Eli Bence is buried here in River-Side Cemetery. His second wife was Annie Maxfield of Fairhaven and he's in the Maxfield family's plot.

[theebmonique]

Thanks Chris...it may be the house that Emma stayed in duting the trial. I will check with Mr. Rebello to be sure and let you all know. Thank you for everyone's help with this !

Tracy...

[theebmonique]

I decided to revive this thread...for sport...and because of all of the folks "Headed to Lizzie's" this next week. I am sure Stefani's presentation will be wonderful. I look forward to hearing full reports...maybe even something in the next HATCHET ?

Be safe, but have fun too !!!!


Tracy...

[Chace]

Have spent almost a whole hour reading back threads and posts.

Theebmonique: wren't you going to Fall River with "Audrey"?? She's not posting so maybe she's there.

I asekd before "what presentation"? Can anyone tell me? Is it the Fall River Lecture Series?

My cousin (who lives in Fall River) emailed me that some t.v. documentary to be aired on ABC is going to be filmed at the B&B starting this Saturday.
Any more info from anyone? That's all he knew, except it had to do with ghosts.

[Elizabeth Ann]

I really have appreciated this tour with those of you lucky enough to have been there! Thank you for taking the time to share with us.

[Constantine]

Guess who am going to spend the night in the John Vinnicum Morse room this Saturday, September 3. (Lee-ann, you are disqualified for obvious reasons.)

Oops! Guess I gave it away.

[Kat]

Oh that's fantastic!
Congratulations! Hope you report back!
Is that a birthday present?

[Constantine]

Yep. It's a birthday present to me from me. I will report.

[Harry]

Have fun Constantine.

Don't nap on any sofas!

[Constantine]

Thanks, Harry.

It's safe. I have no daughters.

[Kat]

<<<ouch>>>

[Constantine]

Were you napping on a sofa?

[theebmonique]

Constantine...How was your night at THE house ? I loved staying in the guest room. My niece and I stayed there 2 nights. Lets us know how things went !!


Tracy...

[snokkums]

I would love tohave lizzie borden forum sleepover at her house. That would be great.

[theebmonique]

All of us there all at once ? As Auds would say...MON DIEU !


Tracy...

[Constantine]

Just to let you all know that I haven't forgotten about my report of my stay. Just having a little trouble composing it.

[Kat]

Okay Dokey! Thanks!

[theebmonique]

I am looking forward to hearing your story !


Tracy...

[Constantine]

Finally!

My report on my stay on September 3, 2005:

(Sorry for the delay, but I was afraid that I (i) had included (a) too much about some things and (b) not enough about others, (ii) may have been a tad pretentious at times and (iii) hadn’t organized my thoughts very well.) Well, enough is enough. Here it is, remaining warts and all (besides, I can still edit it afterwards if I care enough):

I enjoyed it far more than I imagined I would--and I imagined I would!

I took the train from New York to Providence, where I got the bus to Fall River. I afterwards found out that I could have saved a bundle by taking the bus directly from New York. Fortunately, I had only bought a one-way ticket, so I took the bus all the way back.

My map showed “Fall River Station” as being some distance away from the house (somewhere northwest of Maplecroft), so I thought I had a good walk ahead of me when the bus stopped. I asked the driver which way the Borden house was. He pointed behind me and there it was!

It is quite a handsome house of classic simplicity. I’m glad I came after the press was demolished. I find the present dark green color quite becoming too. I have since read about the plans to paint the house the original “mustard” color. I hope that “mustard” means “mustard greens.”

I was greeted at the door by a middle-aged woman with short red hair. I asked if she was Lee-Ann. It was Eleanor, who works there evenings. I asked her if I could call her Maggie. “Anything but,” she said. I told her I was sure I was not the first to pull that gag, which she confirmed. I used it on her husband Ed the next day too.

I was already familiar with the layout of the house from floor plans and photographs in the books I read, but found it subtly different from the way I had imagined it, especially in the proportions. I had imagined the rooms as being longer and narrower and the ceilings lower. (I should have remembered that Victorian ceilings were high.) I found the atmosphere at once charming and a trifle spooky, which surprised me, as I am a devout skeptic. (It occurred to me afterwards that I had had the same reaction in other houses of that period, even if nobody had been murdered in them (as far as I knew).) By and large, though, I found the smells and the old-fashioned furnishings and decor (far more elegant than I had imagined) quite soothing. I have a pet theory that the increasing scarcity of such things has a lot to do with the alleged increase in the incidence of depression. But then, of course, people are quite capable of being depressed even in such surroundings, as Lizzie was. And of course, I didn’t have Andrew and Abby around to oppress my spirits.

Eleanor gave me a map of (mostly) “Lizzie” sites in Fall River. I asked if all these might be within walking distance. At first, she said no, but then said it depended on one’s personal standards. I was able to visit them all (aside from Heritage Park, the only non-Lizzie site), have dinner at the Abbey and come back in time for the tour at eight-thirty.

I noticed the large number of handsome period houses, all of which I wished I could visit. I noticed a handsome building that proved to be the Historical Society, which it was too late to visit. I walked up to Maplecroft, which I found smaller than I expected. Though certainly a good-sized house, it is hardly the mansion it has been described as. I had expected far more extensive grounds and a surrounding wall or fence isolating the house from the street and neighboring houses. All this would have been in keeping with Lizzie’s reclusive nature (enforced, of course). Ivy partially covered the name of the house on the front steps, as well as the windows to the left. I had the feeling the house was only tolerably well kept. I afterwards found out from the nice man who owns the gift shop near the Historical Society that the owner had once opened Maplecroft as a B&B, but decided that it was too much work.

I remember musing during my walk about whether I was (i) wasting time and money on something inconsequential, (ii) glorifying a murderess and (iii) intruding. I defended myself to myself by observing that (i) I was not spending inordinate amounts of time or money obsessing about the case, (ii) my interest did not imply approval of Lizzie (or whomever) or complicity in an act that took place long before I was born and (iii) had certainly long been “public domain.”

(It seems strange to think that I have been alive for more than half the time since the murders. Bridget Sullivan was alive when I was born and no doubt there are people now living who knew people involved in the case.)

I walked to Oak Grove Cemetery, where arrows in the pavement marked the way to the Borden plot. I do not believe in an afterlife, though I would like to, but I imagined that I could sense Lizzie’s presence and that she was not happy about my own.

On the way back, I dined at the Abbey (once the Congregational church attended by Lizzie!) on a potato pizza with onions, bacon and sour cream.

I got back with time to spare for the tour, meeting Lee-ann, with whom I had spoken on the phone about a month previously, and some of my fellow inmates.

Not including Eleanor and Lee-ann, there were thirteen people present for the tour, including two who had been late for the last day tour.

Eleanor told us about how she had originally been comparatively uninterested in the case and been given a prepared script for her talk, but had gradually become fascinated with it. She told us which elements of the house were original and which replacements and corrected some of the myths about the case, such as that the murders had taken place on the hottest day of the year.

She and Lee-ann told us several stories about manifestations. Eleanor told us that though for a long time she had not experienced any, she did once see what looked like smoke coming from the kitchen door into the sitting room though there was no fire. Lee-ann said that a window on the second floor once mysteriously moved up and down repeatedly. (Both these incidents were reenacted in one of the videotapes available for viewing in the parlor.) Lee-ann also told of a ghostly cat that had been heard mewing in various parts of the house, which she furnished with various cat toys, some of which serve as doorstops.

We heard about how the skulls had finally been buried, though not as deeply as the bodies. (They are in boxes about two feet deep.) Eleanor said that an expert who wanted to examine them received death threats.

When we went into the sitting room, I assumed the position on the couch and was photographed by one of the other guests.

Watched several tapes and DVDs afterwards with other guests. The best one was of an examination by two modern forensics experts of parts of the house and various items connected with the case. This seemed to confirm that the handleless hatchet was the murder weapon and that the murderer had washed up in the basement. The chief flaw was that in the reenactments, Bridget kept insisting to Mr. and Mrs. Borden that they call her Bridget instead of Maggie. (Lizzie and Emma were the ones who called her Maggie, which she insisted did not bother her.) It rather puzzled me that, though several of these films included children chanting the Lizzie Borden quatrain, none of them used the tune of “Ta-Ra-Ra-Boom-De-Ay,” which is certainly long in the public domain.

I went up to my room (the John Vinnicum Morse room), the door of which was propped open with one of the cat doorstops. I closed the door and was startled by a rattling noise. I quickly discovered that I had set the lid of a small ceramic box in motion. (I found out the next morning that this happened pretty regularly.) While undressing, I warned any ghosts who might be present that I would be getting naked and was a distinctly unprepossessing article. This seems to have prevented any manifestations. (I was quite amused to read later that I was not the only one self-conscious about this.)

I afterwards got up briefly and went to the parlor (sufficiently dressed), where another guest was watching The Legend of Lizzie Borden. Eleanor had told us of an inaccuracy in the film—it had Lizzie discover her father in the act of embalming a corpse, a technique that had not yet been invented. I found that I could easily tell where the dialogue was authentic and where it was invented. I am sorry to say that the invented stuff invariably rang false. I hate to say it, but what I saw of the film pretty well killed my interest in it.

Early in the morning, I thought I heard the mewing of a cat, but soon realized it was the cries of gulls outside. Could this be the explanation for the ghostly cat?

Ed knocked on the door at 7:30, as I had arranged. I was already up. Ed is a grey-haired man with a ring beard like that of Andrew Borden. I asked if he copied it from him, which he said he did, as he takes the part in the reenactments that take place on the anniversary of the crime and on Halloween. (These are the times it is most difficult to get a room. However, you can attend these reenactments even if not staying at the house and without reserving.)

Breakfast, prepared by Ed, consisted of orange juice, coffee or tea, a delicious fruit salad, eggs, sausages, Irish soda bread and, of course, Johnny cakes. I found these rather bland. Butter and maple syrup certainly helped, but give me buttermilk pancakes any day.

I went out to do some sightseeing. First, I went down to the shore where I found the Marine Museum closed despite the fact that it ought to have been open according to the schedule on the door. Perhaps it was because it was Labor Day weekend. I did see the Old Colony and Fall River Railroad Museum, the Heritage Park and the USS Massachusetts Memorial, which I found rather pricy at fourteen dollars, but well worth it. Several ships are on display, of which the title ship is by far the most impressive. I found the interiors rather claustrophobia-inducing, though, especially a couple of galleries full of shells (presumably deactivated), which gave me far more shivers than the house did.

I walked on to the Abbey, where I had a buffet lunch before walking on to the Historical Society, which, to my disappointment, was closed, again despite being scheduled to be open. I walked around to the back and had a chat with the owner of the Gift Shop and then took another look at Maplecroft and the graves. I was tempted to stay another night, but decided against it. I certainly intend to come back, though.

(By the way, if there are any ghosts there, why do they have to be the Bordens? Maybe the McGinns aren’t happy to have their house visited by strangers. And what about the people who lived there before the Bordens?)

[theebmonique]

Thank you for the wonderful depiction of your trip ! I loved it ! I too missed getting into the FRHS due to it being closed at times when I thought it would be open.

Thanks again for your story !


Tracy...

[Constantine]

Glad you liked it. (I've tweaked it a little since you've read it, by the way. Nothing substantial.) Thanks very much for your appreciative message. I found it quite encouraging.

[Haulover]

thank you for your account of staying there. did it surprise you how close the sitting room sofa is to the front door?

[Constantine]

did it surprise you how close the sitting room sofa is to the front door?

I didn't give it any thought. To tell the truth, it doesn't seem to me that it is. That, at least, was about what I expected. Sorry.

[mbhenty]

Hi Constantine: I was getting ready to log out until I came to your narrative of your trip to Fall River. What a wonderful read. Nice to hear you had a good trip here. Felt like I was along.

[Kat]

Whew! We love to get these reports of Fall River visits! Thanks!!

PS: Did you *recognize* Stefani & Myself in that video ?

Also, the Marine Museum website has been down since before Christmas I think- maybe they are not open anymore? We should find out!

[Constantine]

Videos:

No, I'm afraid I didn't. Are there photos of you on the site?

[Constantine]

Re: sitting room sofa

Actually, now that I think of it, the sitting room was smaller than I thought, and the kitchen, larger.

(Thought I'd already posted a previous incarnation of this, but I couldn't find it.)

[Kat]

Videos:

No, I'm afraid I didn't. Are there photos of you on the site?

I think we were the only girls in that video as *talking heads,* not actors.
I had on black and white and Stefani was in red.

[Harry]

Constantine, thank you for the most interesting story of your visit to the house and Fall River. Looks like you saw all the key sites (with the exception of the Historical Society) and used your time there wisely.

Like you, I found the house different from what I expected. Emma's room was cramped but with that exception the others were more than adequate. Certainly not as small and cramped as some authors would have us believe.

Again, thanks for the summary, it was well written.

[Kat]

Re: sitting room sofa

Actually, now that I think of it, the sitting room was smaller than I thought, and the kitchen, larger.

(Thought I'd already posted a previous incarnation of this, but I couldn't find it.)

If you are ever looking for something you recall posting, try clicking on your profile and look at the upper right side under where it says "Total Posts."
Under that - in light blue- it says "Find All Posts by Constantine" and glows like a link, which it is.

Click there and you can scroll thru your own posts and hopefully find yourself.
search.php?search_author=Constantine

[Constantine]

Hi, Kat! Yes, I was aware of all that. Thanks anyway. I must have cancelled it accidentally or even on purpose and just forgot about it.

[Constantine]

Hi, Harry. Thanks for your message. You are certainly someone whose reaction I was looking forward to.

I've been looking for your account(s) of your own visit(s). Could you give me some directions? (It or they are evidently not on this thread.)

[kindee]

Oh I can't believe I found this thread. My best friend and I are spending next Friday night in Lizzie's room and I am just in awe that I am able to get all this wonderful stuff from this board. I was really hoping to find all I could about what it's like to stay in the house but I never dreamed I would come upon this treasure trove. You all have helped me prepare for an adventure I've always wanted to have. Thanks a million.

[theebmonique]

This will be a trip you will never forget. Remember to take time to soak it all in...and also go see Maplecroft...Oak Grove...THE courtroom (in New Bedford), the Swansea house/farm and the FRHS.

HAVE FUN !!!


Tracy...

[kindee]

thanks SO very very much! We have a few hours before the overnighters' tour so I hope to get to the cemetery and Maplecroft for sure---I have to be on a plane by 10:30 a.m. (I had NO idea we were going to spend the night at Lizzie's until just a few days ago and I had had my itinerary booked weeks ago or I would have made SURE we had a couple of days to investigate...) Saturday but I have a sneaking suspicion this won't be my only trip to Fall River---

my best friend is from Haverhill and I see Haverhill makes the archives as prosecutor Moody was a native?

This thread has primed me for my visit---I canNOT wait.

[Mara]

I found this thread while looking for the one mentioned by Curryong earlier today in the "All About Abby" thread (which always makes me think of Bette Davis growling, "Fasten your seat belts, it's going to be a bumpy night"). ;)

Don't miss the fabulous photos, descriptions of the house by a forum member named Robert Harry who appears to be still a member (come back!) and especially the surprising description of the Borden house by a contemporary female reporter.

Now, back to looking for Curryong's referenced thread.

[debbiediablo]

"The Mrs. Borden who threw her three children into the cistern of the house south of Mr. Borden's residence is in no way related to any of the deceased. Thus no claim of insanity can be drawn from that quarter." --pg. 58, Lizzie Borden: A Case Book of Family and crime in the 1890's.
Edited by Joyce G. Williams, J. Eric Smithburn, M. Jeanne Peterson. T.I.S. Publications, 1980.

This refers to a Borden wife which makes her not related to Lizzie.

What gives me food for thought is that the Borden family from the outside looking in may have been far different from the Borden family on the inside looking out. Every family has skeletons in its closet but throwing three children into a cistern and then committing suicide is a pretty big thing. Makes me wonder about the male-female dynamics in Andrew's home.