Ebay offering

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:39 am

Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs Lizzie A Borden the Knowlton Papers.

This dealer says: Lets go a-fishin and see what we can get?

Hmmmm?
http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Commonwealth-of ... dZViewItem

diana · Post by **diana** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:57 am

Wow -- still in its shrink-wrap! The dealer's obviously not into Lizzie -- or else has two copies. Who could resist opening this book!!

I bought mine from the FRHS soon after it was published. I debated over the price ($50.00 then) and whether I wanted to carry such a heavy book around for the rest of my two week vacation in New England. Now I'm so glad I listened to my instincts and took it home on the plane....

It's definitely not an essential book for students of the case -- not like Rebello's. I think it's primarily a way to get the flavor of the public feeling surrounding the event and it does provide some insight into Knowlton's approach to the trial. But it's really become so pricey because of its rarity.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:32 pm

I notice that the seller's eBay name is "exceden"...maybe is should be "exceeden"...with that asking price of $600...whew.

Tracy...

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:39 pm

With 3+ days left, the book, Conjecture by Lowdes listed on ebay, which I mention above, is already up to 113 dollars.

I doubt but would not be surprise if final bid it over 200 dollars, snice there is a couple of heated bidders slugging it out.

There's a nice copy without dust jacket listed as "VG+ with GILT on spine still bright" by Shire Book Shop in Franklin MA. Probably a nice copy. Listed for 65 dollars, again, without DJ.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:23 pm

Tracy, maybe that's a misprint for "excedrin"...which you definitely need to take if you're gonna shell out $600!

The Belloc Lowndes isn't a bad read, for fiction. But the photo on the dustjacket of 92 Second Street is one of the most interesting photos I've seen, and I've never seen it printed elsewhere.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:41 am

The picture of second street on the cover of Belloc Lowndes looks like it was taken from up in the air, like from the second storey of a house. It reminds me of the sketch that was drawn of the neighbourhood, perhaps it was drawn from the same place that the picture was taken from.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:13 am

We have discussed this photo in the past but I can't seem to locate the thread so I'll start it anew.

It is indeed a marvelous photo of Second St. I've enhanced it somewhat to show some more detail. That's the Churchill house on the extreme left and the Miller/Bowen house on the extreme right side of the photo. You can see a lady beneath the tree in front of the Borden house. Lizzie? Now that would be cool. I don't know the year the photo was taken.

Notice how high from the gound the first floor windows of the Borden house are on the north side. Compare the height of the woman against the window nearest the street. Bridget must have had a long pole to wash them. Then the throwing the water on them from a dipper must have been a messy job.

Is that a white top to a buggy in front of the Churchill house?

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:22 am

Thanks, Harry. That must be a wagon or carriage. But what are those things on the Borden roof? Vents of some sort?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:27 am

I think the one on the left is just a trap door allowing access onto the roof. Officer Desmond is questioned on cross-examination at the trial about the search of the house, page 731+:

"Q. Well, do you wish to say anything more about any other parts of the attic?
A. I couldn't go into any further discourse as to how we searched the attic. We did it.
Q. You searched them all---
A. We gave the whole building---
Q. No, I don't want the whole building.
A. Well, we gave the upper part of the building, the entire attics, a good thorough search.
Q. Did you go up on the roof?
A. Is seems to me the assistant marshal did go up there and look out there once or twice.
Q. So you did go to the top of the house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Clear up to the ridge-pole?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You did not find anything at all?
A. No, sir."

It's not clear to me whether he looked out or went out but I assume Fleet looked out that trap door. There is no trap door that I know of on the other side of the roof. How thorough the search of the roof was is anybody's guess. It would be great place to hide a weapon but its a long way from the Andrew's murder site. That trap door is still there, btw.

The other faint line you may be referring to looks like the bottom of one of the chimneys.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:37 am

Yes Harry: All homes had these, of course, today they are for the most part eliminated when a roof is shingled.

Back then they would have the job of double duty, to give access to the roof and for ventelation, thus the other image we see may be another roof door. Many buildings in New England had two. Those that had only one, it was usually placed in the center of the building. As you can see in the photo the trap door we can see is towards the rear of the building. As roofs were done over one roof door was always eliminated as just another source of possible water intrusion. On many the door is eliminated altogether.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:57 pm

OK Harry, Stuartwsa: I see what we are looking at now. On the roof is the trap door. To the west of the trap door, that is towards the front of the building, is a tall chimney. This houses a flue which runs inside a wall in the dinning room up through Lizzies old bedroom. This would accommodate a small fireplace or stove.

Between the tall chimney and the trap door is another chimney on the other side of the roof which houses the kitchen flue and the Fireplace flue.

I dare say that if the police were as thorough as to go up on the roof, they should have seen or checked for the axe on the roof of the buildings next door on Thirds street, where some believe the ax was eventually found.?

It is also interesting to note that the diagram in Pearson's book (also in Radins book.) displaying a birds eye view of Second Street and the house does not show the second Chimney.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:10 pm

It's called a skylight.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:26 pm

Right you are nbcatlover. Skylights!!! Why couldn't we think of that. Perhaps because trap door sounds so much more intreguing. Most homes had skylights but the Borden house had a trap door.

Most were made of glass like a window. Many 3 deckers had them and it was the only way their lofts got light.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:12 pm

Lizzie's room had no fireplace or chimney but the next room East, Andrew's had had one covered over. Lizzie shared that bedroom wall but had no fireplace opening.

Inside the Borden house now, there is a ceiling in the attic. At the ceiling there is a trapdoor access to the space between the ceiling of the attic and the roof.
I don't think that is a skylight. I think it's a trapdoor to the roof.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:22 pm

Sorry Kat: Perhaps I did not make it clear. My fault. Now, as I understand it Lizzie's room use to be Emma's. When I was referring to Lizzie's room I was doing so before they traded rooms. When you get to the top of the stairs the first bedroom was Emma's and you had to go thru Emma's room to get to Lizzie's, No? Later they swapped rooms.... (?)

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:34 pm

If you were upstairs in the guest room the chimney would be inside the wall behind the headboard. In the bedroom on the other side of the wall, we will call it Emma's bedroom, there should be a small closet. Housed along with that closet on the same wall is a chimney. That chimney comes up thru the dinning room. Now I don't know if there is a fireplace in the dinning room? Whether there is or not there should be a small closet there. The closet in the dinning room and in the bedroom above it should be lined up along with the chimney which eventually protrudes out the roof as we see in the photo above.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:43 pm

Yes Kat, that would be a trap door in the attic. If you go thru this "trap door" you would not be on the roof, but instead in a very confined small area that we call the loft. Many call the attic and loft the same place and the two descriptions are often exchanged.

But, a loft is the area between the roof and the ceiling of the next lower floor. So the attic in the Borden house may be referred to as the attic, and above that would be a loft area. That is where the "skylight" would be.

Sorry about all the posts. Should have consolidated my thoughts before posting.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:55 am

OK but I still don't think the door onto the roof is a skylight. I have not been up in that loft space. I'd like to look up there. But with the ceiling of the living space covered by the loft area ceiling there is no need for light, I don't think.
......................
Are you describing the chimney in the wall but not a fireplace in the actual room? Because if so I think that is correct.

Gramma · Post by **Gramma** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:22 am

When was the ceiling put in? Was it there in the 1800's? Usually the attic was an open space with exposed rafters and no ceiling. There were very few "finished" spaces in these areas back then.

Gramma

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:03 pm

All I can say is that I have lived in two houses which had panels like that. You open them for ventilation. They would have a metal rod sticking down inside the house which had holes in it for a fastener to go through to keep the wind from blowing it away when you would pushed them open.

In my houses, without that "loft", I would have to stand on a ladder to reach the metal rod. If I climbed to the top of the ladder, the roof was at my waist, and it was easy to boost yourself out to the roof (if you were crazy enough to do so). I remember my father doing so to do chimney repairs after the hurricane. Every house in my neighborhood when I was growing up had them. They were called skylights, but they are not like the "modern ones" advertised today.

Even the "older" ones in my neighborhood today have been upgraded over the years. They are narrower and they all have glass. Many old attics were very dark without electric until you let that crack of light in through that wooden skylight.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:36 pm

Actually, I've tried zooming in on that photo and I'm not sure that the Borden skylight doesn't already have glass in it. I can't adjust the exposure enough on my photo program to enhance the detail.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:38 am

I don't know how if that rear skylight had glass in it when that picture was taken but I know it had glass in it when I was there in 2004. It is in the sitting area on the third floor. As I came out of Bridget's room the stairs were right in front of me and I think that skylight was a bit to the left of the stairs. I remember looking at it and thinking how it helped light up that area. At the time I thought it had been installed in more recent years for light, I didn't realize it was there in the 1890's.

I remember a closet in the Dining room just inside the entrance from the sitting room. Lee Ann opened it up to do something while I was in the Sitting room.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:11 am

Thanks Tony for the first-hand info. I have no idea what it was in 1892 only that Fleet must have used it to access the roof during the search. There doesn't appear to be anywhere else he could have used.

Considering the steep angle of the roof and the size of the opening I seriously doubt he went out onto the roof.

I think if he had access to the house after the trial he would have volunteered Mullaly to search the roof.

It was Mullaly that contradicted Fleet saying that Fleet had found the missing handle.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:55 am

OK I give up and am thoroughly confused.
Cntha it could be a wooden "skylight?"
Which is equal to a trap door? But not glass, right?

Here is the attic ceiling I was referring to. It's in the hallway as one faces the doors to the 2 west front rooms. When opened, a dead pigeon was there and so a placque was mounted there when the place was being readied as a Museum and B&B.

And no, I don't know if the attic ceiling was *finished* in the Borden's days. I was assured the floor at least was probably finished... I had asked about that.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:16 pm

Before I post, and without trying to sound haughty, I would like to add that I have been in hundreds, more likely over 1000 attics or lofts in my life time. It's what my job encompassed. Including the attic/loft of the Catholic Memorial home who's roof is 20 feet high and loft space over 1/8th of a mile long. You name it, I have seen it, drilled in it, busted holes in it, probed it, fished it, fell through it, and even taken a nap in it. from Fall River, to New Bedford, Taunton, Brocton and all the countless small towns inbetween. Oh yes, and I have worked in crawly spaces in the Fall River Historical Society before Michael Martin worked there.

It's no big deal.

What Kat has displayed is a door, or Attic access door, Loft access door, attic door, etc. It's a "Door" (.) There's no real technical term for it. If you were to see it on house blue prints it would say "Loft Access."

Some of the newer ones are called "Attic Access Stairs" by builders and are spring loaded with a set of folding stairs for attic or loft access. I'm sure many have them in thier homes. The one in the Borden home looks like just a door which you lift up and out or open with hinges, like a regular door. But it is very different from what we see on the roof in Harry's Photo above.

Once you open the door" that Kat has shown us, you will find yourself in a small confined area. Shaped like a tight triangle, Not much more than a crawl space.

Right above somewhere is the "skylight," or "Trap door." You may call it what you may. The purpose of the Skylight in Victorian times was generally for access to the roof. It was a window or door to the roof. The main function was to get you to the roof. (Period)

Extention ladders were not readily available in the 1800s like they are today to the typycal home owner. Basically it was ingress to the roof. Period. Not placed there to supply light. If that was the purpose the Window crazy Victorians would have placed several.

But function being the mother of practicality, glass was placed there to add needed light. A Victorian no brainer.

Did the Borden roof door have a glass in it in 1892?? Most likely did. Is it a skylight?? Yes, you may call it so. Is it a "Trap door," or "Roof door??" yes you may call it that also. There is not technical correct term for it.

But it's main function was as a "door" to the roof.

In Lizzie's day most, if not all, were constructed with glass in them. Not to do so to a Victorian builder would be paramount to placing a window on a wall with a sheet of plywood over.

But the best term we can use to discribe the door leading to the roof would probably be "Skylight." This said, you may differ. And you probably would not be wrong. (?)

Oh Yes, Thanks for the CouL photos Kat!!!!!!!

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:36 pm

All the one's left in my neighborhood all have glass now. Most of them have been replaced when roofs are repaired. Most of them are narrower that the original skylights.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:37 pm

I'm doing twofers again

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:23 pm

Kat the door you are refering to is further towards the front of the house. The skylight that I mentioned is further back by the stairs. They are two separate skylights.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:35 pm

Well, someone picked up a copy of Flynn's Porter for 20 bucks. Usually seen anywhere from 60 to 125. Even as a reading copy, 20 dollars is very good.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1

And Again, Lowndes, A study in Conjecture sold for 113. 60 for the book and 53 for the jacket, you can say....... Was very tempted to bid. Does not come up very often with DJ, but have over extended my book kitty for the year.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:56 am

Our Library copy of Porter was $21 in the mid-1980's.
I borrowed it and just could not return it. I called the Library and told them exactly that. Then I asked if they could get another, because I would hate knowing I could not return the copy so that no one else could ever see it. They assured me they could. So I sent them $21. I never told them Why I could not return it and they never asked.

Thanks for the neat picture, Cntha!

Eric · Post by **Eric** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:01 pm

That Porter was my grab Michael. I figured since I have an original, and the one we had discussed a few threads back without the "limited to 1000 copies" I might as well round out the collection. And for 20 bucks how could I refuse?!?!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:59 pm

That's Coul Eric. You are a true collector. If I ever came across one with the "Limited to 1000 copies" declaration missing, I too would buy it and round out my collection of Porter. Now all we need is an original Lunday.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:16 pm

Hey guys, the seller of the Michael Martin, "Knowlton Papers" could not sell it for $600, so he said, hey let's try $300.

Good for him. Did his homework, some-what. Still steep but for a new copy, there may just be a customer out there who wants a pristine copy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Commonwealth-of ... dZViewItem

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:18 am

My pristine copy was $128.

Tracy...

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:59 am

Yes, that's great theebmonique: You see, these books are still relatively new.

Though they have sold out and difficult to find, this gives the market liberty to search for a level of fair pricing. Of course this will take many years before it can be deemed as worth such-and-such. Till then dealer will fish and offer and itchy buyers will entertain and purchase. But you are right, 128 dollars is more realistic, and I dare say, there will be another for that amount offered in the near future.................or will there????

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:40 am

Don't know too much about the value of books and thank Michael for his input.

Tracy, I think you did well on the Knowlton book. If the book is in good shape consider it an investment. It probably won't go down much in value.

Question for Michael or whoever. When a paperback edition of a book comes out what does that do to the value of the original hard cover edition?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:59 pm

Yes Harry that is an interesting question about the paperback editions.

From what I experienced in the past, it has had little effect on the market and in the asking price of the original first edition Hardback.

Like buying a home at a high price then having the value drop and you are stuck with it. Most would not dare sell for less. So they hang on to it.

Most will not sell for less than what they paid for Knowlton Papers and very well choose to hang on to the hardback, which in turn places less copies on the market, thus the value holds.

Strange, but I seen that happen with the Judith Boss book on Fall River. When the soft cover came out the hardcover copies never went down in value. Now even the paperback copies are selling at premium. (That also must have been a small printing since you do not see it much in paperback.) And look at Pearson's Trail. When Flynn came out with a leather copy of "Trail" the price of the 1st held. But that is not to say it would not be much higher if not for Flynn's edition.

I guess for the most part it would be interesting to see what would happen if Martin's book came out in paperback, and in truth we just do not know what it would do for the value of the original. The book market does not always follow the laws of supply and demand for some strange reason.

As time goes by Michael Martin's book will become encrusted into private libraries and boxes in someone's attic, some copies will be lost, damaged and in time less copies of the hardcover book will be availiable and the value will moderate, but not drop much if at all, I don't think. Though more deals on the hardcover will be had more often, I doubt the value in general will drop much.

Making the comparison between the Knowlton Papers and Lizzie Past and Present proves interesting. Mr. Rebello's book is a much greater reference manual than Mr. Martin's. You would think that it would sell for much more, but in fact is usually found with an asking price of 40 to 50% less. Not that we can deem one book more valuable than the other, after all, they contain different subject matter. But, the Rebello book is almost a must for ease of reference on the subject and thus should be in more demand, and the value much more; or you would think so. But I suppose the truth in the matter has much to do with availability.

There were rumors of Mr. Rebello's book coming out in paperback, (from a reliable source) and if so, would be a very welcomed tool to new or young students of the Borden case who do not, or can not, dish out 50 to 200 dollars for a copy.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:42 am

OK everyone, please let me introduce LIZZIE BORDEN, only 100 bucks.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Actual-Photograph-M ... dZViewItem

diana · Post by **diana** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:07 am

Oh, for heaven's sake!

If the real Lizzie Borden did sign that photograph (in blue ballpoint) she'd obviously forgotten what she looked like and how to spell her name.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:05 am

She can join the ranks of other E-Bay "Lizzies" --
(I feel sorry for them)...

william · Post by **william** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:59 am

Well, at least the clothing style looks correct for that period.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:24 am

I wonder if the seller is running a fraud or if he or she doesn't know that its not Lizzie. At least its not the same Lizzie.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:00 pm

OK...I emailed the seller...asking about the photo:

To: lavendierbooks
From: theebmonique
Item: Actual Photograph Murderer Lizzy Borden Fall River MA (180009824725)
Subject: General question about this item

Hello,

I just wanted to check and see if there is any evidence other than finding the photo in a Lizzie Borden story-related book and the fact that it was found in Massachusetts that makes you feel this is possibly a picture of THE Lizzie ? I have been interested in the case for quite a while, and have never seen your picture of Lizzie before. If it IS a picture of Lizze, it would be a great find !

Thank you so very much for your time
Tracy

diana · Post by **diana** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:13 pm

I hope the people who take the trouble to write to these sellers realize how much the rest of us appreciate their efforts!!!

Thank you Tracy -- and kudos to all the other board members who have done the same for us in the past -- you know who you are!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:29 pm

OK, here's a perfect example of how people (myself at times) can get a little crazy on ebay. Chaney's book is up for bid, and keep in mind that this is a brand new publication, still in print, and selling new for cover price of $12.95

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lizzie-Borden-by-Ka ... dZViewItem

Eric · Post by **Eric** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:51 am

Michael I thought you would enjoy this. The Porter reprint that I just grabbed DOES NOT have the limited to 1000 copies printed. That is now the second copy that I have that is missing this. It really makes me wonder how many "additional" copies were printed. In my opinion it is just deplorable that they could/would do this. You will see me posting it for sale on eBay soon.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:56 pm

I know just how you feel Eric. In speaking to Mr Flynn years ago he displayed an "as-a-matter-of-fact" attitude towards the additional publications.

Of course, I find this highly unethical, though I am sure he finds nothing wrong with it, but it does lend to Greed, pure and simple.....

All he would have had to do was to make the cover brown, or blue, painless and no additional cost. This would have made the bold declaration that it was another edition.

Sorry to hear it Eric. But unless it's a hard core collector this should not detract from the sale of the book, though you may need to state, "This copy omits the limited edition confirmation." It could have been worst, it could have been an X-Library copy. Good luck Eric..

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:38 pm

theebmonique @ Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:00 am wrote:OK...I emailed the seller...asking about the photo:

To: lavendierbooks
From: theebmonique
Item: Actual Photograph Murderer Lizzy Borden Fall River MA (180009824725)
Subject: General question about this item

Hello,

I just wanted to check and see if there is any evidence other than finding the photo in a Lizzie Borden story-related book and the fact that it was found in Massachusetts that makes you feel this is possibly a picture of THE Lizzie ? I have been interested in the case for quite a while, and have never seen your picture of Lizzie before. If it IS a picture of Lizze, it would be a great find !

Thank you so very much for your time
Tracy

I have yet to hear from this seller. Maybe that could be another reminder about how people use Lizzie's name for their own greed.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:45 pm

Is this the one that was pulled from sale?
See MondoLizzie?
I may be wrong.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:36 pm

Yes...that is the one. I missed the Mondo announcement that it had been pulled.

Tracy...