Andrew's arrival

[Yooper]

When Andrew arrived home after finishing his business on Thursday, he is seen by Mrs. Kelly coming around the side of the house and going to the front door. Is it fair to assume that he may have tried the back door only to find it hooked (p. 233, Trial, Bridget)? If so, and further, if Lizzie was in the kitchen reading rather than upstairs, why didn't she let Andrew in the back door? Why didn't Bridget see Lizzie in the kitchen perhaps five minutes earlier than Andrew's arrival when she brought in her window washing implements?

[augusta]

Well, we know Lizzie was on the stairs or landing when Andrew arrived because she laughed when Bridget couldn't open the front door. So she was not reading a magazine just then.

[Yooper]

I tend to believe Bridget's version, too, but it's her word against Lizzie's. Lizzie also said she was upstairs at one point, but that was inconsistent with her earlier testimony. When a clarification was asked for, she changed the story back to having been in the kitchen when Andrew arrived. She seems to get away with the inconsistency due to the influence of the morphine she was taking. I'm trying to eliminate any question of Lizzie's whereabouts when Andrew arrived.

[Airmid]

Good questions!
If Andrew tried the back door first when he came home, at least he can't have made a lot of noise (yelling or rapping on the door for instance), because otherwise I think Bridget in the sitting room would have heard him. Bridget also doesn't strike me as being very observant, especially when she was wrapped up in a routine. So I think there is a small chance that Lizzie was in the kitchen or perhaps the dining room at that time.

If she wasn't, then she had a big problem on her hand, because then she would have to explain why she didn't see Abby's body. After all, both Bridget and Mrs. Churchill said the door to the guestroom was open, and that they could see Abby's body before they entered the room.

Perhaps this was what the Morse/Brigham experiment was all about (Trial p. 1591). Morse laid down on the floor in the guestroom, about where Abby's body had been, and Mrs. Brigham was in the hall upstairs. Mrs. Brigham said she could not see Mr. Morse from the hall. The fact that Mrs. Brigham was chosen as the observer, leads me to think that the aim of the experiment was to check whether a woman (Lizzie?) could have missed seeing the body.

Airmid.

[DWilly]

Good questions!
If Andrew tried the back door first when he came home, at least he can't have made a lot of noise (yelling or rapping on the door for instance), because otherwise I think Bridget in the sitting room would have heard him. Bridget also doesn't strike me as being very observant, especially when she was wrapped up in a routine. So I think there is a small chance that Lizzie was in the kitchen or perhaps the dining room at that time.

If she wasn't, then she had a big problem on her hand, because then she would have to explain why she didn't see Abby's body. After all, both Bridget and Mrs. Churchill said the door to the guestroom was open, and that they could see Abby's body before they entered the room.

Perhaps this was what the Morse/Brigham experiment was all about (Trial p. 1591). Morse laid down on the floor in the guestroom, about where Abby's body had been, and Mrs. Brigham was in the hall upstairs. Mrs. Brigham said she could not see Mr. Morse from the hall. The fact that Mrs. Brigham was chosen as the observer, leads me to think that the aim of the experiment was to check whether a woman (Lizzie?) could have missed seeing the body.

Airmid.

I think you have to keep in mind that when Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went up stairs they were looking for Abby. If Lizzie just zipped up stairs carrying an armful of clothes She may very well have not seen the body. After all wouldn't her eyes be looking forward not turned to the side to see what was under the bed?

[theebmonique]

I think it's hard NOT to turn and look when going up those stairs. I realize that when we go up them now, that we know what we are looking for, but I think that even back then, it would have been almost natural to look especially if you already had your hand on the railing or were placing it there as you went up. They may not have been used to specifically 'looking under the bed', but I would think that something out of the ordinary (Abby's body) would have been one of those 'I caught it out of the corner of my eye' things.





Tracy...

[Angel]

Am I remembering wrong, or did Lizzie say the door was closed when she went upstairs? Because the door was open when Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went up and saw the body.

[Smudgeman]

Lizzie does say the door was closed at some point, but I don't believe her. How convenient for her.............Maybe the door was closed at some point that morning, as the murder was occurring, but was opened afterwards, that way Lizzie feels she is really not telling a lie in her mind.

[Smudgeman]

Maybe Lizzie was in the Dining Room gathering some laundry to take upstairs. She goes upstairs, shuts the door on Abby and locks it. (I am assuming there is a lock on the outside, if not, someone has the key and has locked the door prior to it being shut) She then either changes clothes, takes off her clothes, gets the hatchet while Abby is banging on the door "Let me out, crying Lizzie, Bridget!" Lizzie shouts back, I am coming Mrs. Borden, I didn't realize you were in there, coming right away, I thought you were finished in there, I'm coming." Lizzie opens the door, and BOOM, starts swinging away until Mrs. Borden is dead. Anyway, this is something I have been considering. Just haven't figured out the lock thing, there were alot of locked doors in that house!

I believe Lizzie was upstairs when Andrew got home, Bridget is going to recognize Lizzie's laugh over a total stranger she has never heard laugh before I would think. Or if she was in the kitchen when Andrew got home, she could have possibly dashed upstairs just to make things look normal or to protect a crime scene...........hmmmmmmmmm

[Angel]

I think if Abby had been locked in the room and was banging on the door, then Bridget and Andrew (if he was still there) would have heard the commotion.

[Smudgeman]

Well, Nobody heard Abby being murdered?

[Angel]

I've always thought that the first swing knocked Abby out- that she was kneeling on the floor when it happened. I think it happened so fast she didn't have a chance to make a sound. But if someone was yelling and knocking to be let out of a room, I'm sure someone would have heard it.

[Smudgeman]

I guess we will never really know what happened. We don't know if Abby was chased into that room or if she was in there and was caught by surprise. I was just thinking about it, and wanted to share my random thoughts, however bizarre they might be. By the way, do we know if any blood splatter was found on the back of the guestroom door?

[Angel]

I tend to think she was caught by surprise. If she was chased I would bet she would have made some kind of ruckus that would have been heard because of the way that house is set up.

[snokkums]

When Andrew arrived home after finishing his business on Thursday, he is seen by Mrs. Kelly coming around the side of the house and going to the front door. Is it fair to assume that he may have tried the back door only to find it hooked (p. 233, Trial, Bridget)? If so, and further, if Lizzie was in the kitchen reading rather than upstairs, why didn't she let Andrew in the back door? Why didn't Bridget see Lizzie in the kitchen perhaps five minutes earlier than Andrew's arrival when she brought in her window washing implements?

Maybe Lizzie wasn't in the kitchen. Given the many times she changed her story, she could have been any where in the house.

[RayS]

Based on what I know and remember, Lizzie was in the kitchen when Andy returned, and called for Bridget to open the front door.
Lizzies BIG MISTAKE was to claim she was the one who laughed on the second floor; this was to hide the presence of a Secret Visitor. This in turn caused her to be indicted for a murder she didn't commit.
Lizzie could have said she was at the door of the Sitting Room and didn't hear anything at all.
The other Big Mistake was to say "it wasn't Bridget or anyone who worked for Father" as this tells she knew who it was, or at least didn't recognize him. But it shows kind-hearted Lizzie protecting Andy's employees.

Yes, I know I have no video tape from that day, its just my reasonable assumption. You weren't there either.
So let the feeding frenzy of denial begin!

[Smudgeman]

Just because someone does not agree with you, does not mean they are in "denial" - give me a break. And I would think Bridget would recognize Lizzie's laugh as opposed to some rank stranger.

[Kat]

When we stayed at the House recently, it was not readily apparent from what direction noises were coming during the resident's house tour, which we sat out. That confused me. However, sitting in the parlour, we could hear noises that sounded like from right above- the guestroom- and I'd ask if that was Abby now falling? It wasn't. It was about the 3rd big noise we heard that the group decided that in the tour taking place upstairs, Abby had now fallen.
~~~~
Lizzie said Abby told her she was going to close up the room when she was thru cleaning. And then Lizzie said the door was closed. And yes it's important because we see over and over where witnesses are asked where they were standing when they could see under the bed. Dr. Bowen was asked as well. And Arthur Phillips recreates the scene as well, of a body on the far side of the bed.

I think it's a good point that if Lizzie was carrying things/clothing upstairs she would be looking at her feet as she climbed rather than around and under a bed, if the door was even open.
~~~

I tended to wonder if Andrew was coming from a stop at the barn's outhouse, after being downtown. That would bring him to the front door from the side Mrs. Dr. Kelly saw him upon his approach. Of couse, it seems almost obvious that he also could have been trying to get in at the side door, whether he stopped at the barn privy or not.
I forgot that not only would Lizzie-in-the-kitchen (as we had once discussed) have heard him at the screen door- but so would Bridget. That's a good point.

There was something going on with Bridget. I think she was involved in some way.

[matt kevin jones]

I agree with you Kat
Bridget had to be involved somehow.
It seems impossible to me that Abby would not have made any noises or the THUD She must have made when She fell.
There must have been a scream or something that could have been heard by Bridget.
IMHO Bridget knew something, It goes back to Her near Death "Secret "
She wanted to tell, but never did.
Seems Funny that Bridget just fell off the earth after the trial.
I think a poor Servant Girl would jump at the Chance to make a better life with a little bit of Hush Money.

[RayS]

Just because someone does not agree with you, does not mean they are in "denial" - give me a break. And I would think Bridget would recognize Lizzie's laugh as opposed to some rank stranger.

As I remember it, Bridget said she heard a laugh from upstairs. She did not say it was Lizzie! It was Lizzie who volunteered "it was me". Therefore it was a stranger if Bridget didn't recognize it.
If Lizzie said she was standing a few feet away and heard nothing, that would be a better cover-up. IMO
"Denial" is another term for disagreement. OK?

[RayS]

...
Bridget had to be involved somehow.
It seems impossible to me that Abby would not have made any noises or the THUD She must have made when She fell.
...

AS I remember it, Bridget was outside on the south side (?) washing windows, near the Kelly house. Second street was a busy thoroughfare, horse clopping, wheels turning, people passing and talking (my assumption). Isn't it still a busy street today? I'm not talking about a weekend.

[Smudgeman]

Just because someone does not agree with you, does not mean they are in "denial" - give me a break. And I would think Bridget would recognize Lizzie's laugh as opposed to some rank stranger.

As I remember it, Bridget said she heard a laugh from upstairs. She did not say it was Lizzie! It was Lizzie who volunteered "it was me". Therefore it was a stranger if Bridget didn't recognize it.
If Lizzie said she was standing a few feet away and heard nothing, that would be a better cover-up. IMO
"Denial" is another term for disagreement. OK?

Yes Bridget Did say she heard Lizzie laugh.
From Bridget's Preliminary testimony:

Q. What did you say?
A. I went to the door, and let Mr. Borden in.
Q. What did you say?
A. Say to who?
Q. When you were opening the door. I 'm am waiting Miss Sullivan.
A. I let Mr. Borden in, I got puzzled at the door, I said "Oh pshaw" at the door. Miss Lizzie laughed up stairs.
Q. That is all you said "Oh pshaw"?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Why did you object to telling me that? Did you consider that to be all wrong?
A. No Sir.
Q. And she laughed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In her room?
A. Either in her room, or in the hall. I do not know which.
Q. Was not she in her own room?
A. I do not know.

[RayS]

My unaided memory was that when Bridget said she heard a laugh, Lizzie said it was her. If Bridget accepted that, that would explain her statement at the inquest.
I believe the testimony given in the first hours is most important since the people there didn't have time to correlate or collude in their testimony.

[RayS]

...
From Bridget's Preliminary testimony:

Q. What did you say?
A. I went to the door, and let Mr. Borden in.
Q. What did you say?
A. Say to who?
Q. When you were opening the door. I 'm am waiting Miss Sullivan.
A. I let Mr. Borden in, I got puzzled at the door, I said "Oh pshaw" at the door. Miss Lizzie laughed up stairs.
Q. That is all you said "Oh pshaw"?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Why did you object to telling me that? Did you consider that to be all wrong?
A. No Sir.
Q. And she laughed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In her room?
A. Either in her room, or in the hall. I do not know which.
Q. Was not she in her own room?
A. I do not know.

Consider this text, it does not mention the well-known pause in Bridget's testimony. What was she thinking of? The real word or to remember what she was supposed to say? Pauses in testimony can reveal something; as in the famous Sir Harry Oakes case when the chief witness took minutes to respond to simple questions.
Bottom line is this: given the verdict, do you accept it?

[Smudgeman]

My unaided memory was that when Bridget said she heard a laugh, Lizzie said it was her. If Bridget accepted that, that would explain her statement at the inquest.
I believe the testimony given in the first hours is most important since the people there didn't have time to correlate or collude in their testimony.

And from Rebello(page 84) Bridget's preliminary Hearing, Stenographer's Minutes: 19

Q. Up to the time you let Mr. Borden in, had you see Miss Lizzie?
A. She was upstairs at the time I let him in.
Q. Upstairs?
A. She might be in the hall, for I heard her laugh.
Q. Up the back or front stairs?
A. The front stairs.


I believe this Testimony is from August 10, 1892, six days after the murders.

[Kat]

We don't have anything earlier than this unless someone has found Bridget's missing Inquest testimony so it has to stand as it is.

[Allen]

I think it's a good point that if Lizzie was carrying things/clothing upstairs she would be looking at her feet as she climbed rather than around and under a bed, if the door was even open.
~~~

I tended to wonder if Andrew was coming from a stop at the barn's outhouse, after being downtown. That would bring him to the front door from the side Mrs. Dr. Kelly saw him upon his approach. Of couse, it seems almost obvious that he also could have been trying to get in at the side door, whether he stopped at the barn privy or not.
I forgot that not only would Lizzie-in-the-kitchen (as we had once discussed) have heard him at the screen door- but so would Bridget. That's a good point.

I think that Lizzie was more accustomed to climbing those stairs than we as visitors to the house give her credit for. She had been climbing those stairs every day, probably several times a day, for years. My basement stairs are very steep and narrow. There is a low ceiling over head on top of all this. When I first began going up and down them with the laundry I'd look down at my feet to make sure I was not going to fall and break my neck. Now I do not have to look down at all. I know where I'm going, and I know how to place my feet to keep myself from tumbling clear to the bottom without even a thought that I'm doing it. So even if Lizzie was carrying an armload of laundry it's possible she didn't have to watch her step all the way up.

If this was the custom to keep the side screen door locked, as it was with the rest of the doors, he may have expected it to be anyway. So to me it doesn't make any sense for him to even have tried to get in that way. Maybe he went into the backyard to be ill as he had that morning? Then he may have went around to let himself in the front door where he had the troubles described by Bridget who ultimately let him in. Still you'd think if Lizzie was in the kitchen she would've seen or heard him.

[RayS]

My unaided memory was that when Bridget said she heard a laugh, Lizzie said it was her. If Bridget accepted that, that would explain her statement at the inquest.
I believe the testimony given in the first hours is most important since the people there didn't have time to correlate or collude in their testimony.

And from Rebello(page 84) Bridget's preliminary Hearing, Stenographer's Minutes: 19

Q. Up to the time you let Mr. Borden in, had you see Miss Lizzie?
A. She was upstairs at the time I let him in.
Q. Upstairs?
A. She might be in the hall, for I heard her laugh.
Q. Up the back or front stairs?
A. The front stairs.

I believe this Testimony is from August 10, 1892, six days after the murders.

As I remember it, Lizzie called out to Bridget to go and answer the front door. Proper procedure was for a servant to answer the door.
But I wasn't there, I only know what I read about the manners of those days. It could be that this was part of Bridget's accomodation to the Borden family. "Yes, Miss Lizzie, I now remember it was just as you told me." IMO

[RayS]

...
If this was the custom to keep the side screen door locked, as it was with the rest of the doors, he may have expected it to be anyway. So to me it doesn't make any sense for him to even have tried to get in that way. Maybe he went into the backyard to be ill as he had that morning? Then he may have went around to let himself in the front door where he had the troubles described by Bridget who ultimately let him in. Still you'd think if Lizzie was in the kitchen she would've seen or heard him.

Good point!
I know people today who keep their back door open when at home, the front door is kept locked. Friends and family know to go around the back.
Since Andy went to the back screen door first (maybe wood door closed?) he must have expected this to be open.

[snokkums]

When Andrew arrived home after finishing his business on Thursday, he is seen by Mrs. Kelly coming around the side of the house and going to the front door. Is it fair to assume that he may have tried the back door only to find it hooked (p. 233, Trial, Bridget)? If so, and further, if Lizzie was in the kitchen reading rather than upstairs, why didn't she let Andrew in the back door? Why didn't Bridget see Lizzie in the kitchen perhaps five minutes earlier than Andrew's arrival when she brought in her window washing implements?

Maybe Lizzie wasn't where she said she was after all.After all she lied abput evertyting else.

[Harry]

Several things.

Lizzie, to the best of my knowledge, never said it was she who laughed. What's the source for that?

Lizzie did not tell Bridget to open the door. She's asked on page 77 of the Prelim:

"Q. You heard the bell ring?
A. I heard the noise; I went to the door.
Q. You are not sure whether the bell rung or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. You went to the door?
A. Yes Sir."

Bridget virtually testifies that Lizzie was not in the kitchen when Andrew returned. This is her Preliminary testimony, page 20:

"Q. Was that the time she laughed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she laugh out loud?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Say anything?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see her then?
A. No Sir.
Q. How soon did you see her?
A. It might be five or ten minutes after, she came down stairs; she came through the front hall, I dont know whether she came from up stairs. She came through the sitting room, I was in the sitting room".

Same page:

"Q. Did you see her when you let Mr. Borden in, or only hear her?
A. No Sir, heard her.
Q. When she came down, what room did she come into from the front hall?
A. In the sitting room where I was; then she went into the dining room."

Bridget was peppered with multiple questions on cross-examination to try to get her to say that she saw Lizzie in the kitchen. Each time she says she doesn't remember seeing her.

[Allen]

When Andrew arrived home after finishing his business on Thursday, he is seen by Mrs. Kelly coming around the side of the house and going to the front door. Is it fair to assume that he may have tried the back door only to find it hooked (p. 233, Trial, Bridget)? If so, and further, if Lizzie was in the kitchen reading rather than upstairs, why didn't she let Andrew in the back door? Why didn't Bridget see Lizzie in the kitchen perhaps five minutes earlier than Andrew's arrival when she brought in her window washing implements?

Maybe Lizzie wasn't where she said she was after all.After all she lied abput evertyting else.

This has been my belief all along snokkums.

[Kat]

I think it's a good point that if Lizzie was carrying things/clothing upstairs she would be looking at her feet as she climbed rather than around and under a bed, if the door was even open.
~~~

I tended to wonder if Andrew was coming from a stop at the barn's outhouse, after being downtown. That would bring him to the front door from the side Mrs. Dr. Kelly saw him upon his approach. Of couse, it seems almost obvious that he also could have been trying to get in at the side door, whether he stopped at the barn privy or not.
I forgot that not only would Lizzie-in-the-kitchen (as we had once discussed) have heard him at the screen door- but so would Bridget. That's a good point.

I think that Lizzie was more accustomed to climbing those stairs than we as visitors to the house give her credit for. She had been climbing those stairs every day, probably several times a day, for years. My basement stairs are very steep and narrow. There is a low ceiling over head on top of all this. When I first began going up and down them with the laundry I'd look down at my feet to make sure I was not going to fall and break my neck. Now I do not have to look down at all. I know where I'm going, and I know how to place my feet to keep myself from tumbling clear to the bottom without even a thought that I'm doing it. So even if Lizzie was carrying an armload of laundry it's possible she didn't have to watch her step all the way up.

If this was the custom to keep the side screen door locked, as it was with the rest of the doors, he may have expected it to be anyway. So to me it doesn't make any sense for him to even have tried to get in that way. Maybe he went into the backyard to be ill as he had that morning? Then he may have went around to let himself in the front door where he had the troubles described by Bridget who ultimately let him in. Still you'd think if Lizzie was in the kitchen she would've seen or heard him.

The older I get the more I have to watch my feet. I realize Lizze was 32 but later we see her wearing glasses so we don't know how well she could see. I understand about *habit*- I just think it's possible carrying stuff could have made her more careful- as opposed to not carrying anything.

I would think Andrew would more likely come to the side door because his access to the sink to clean up and the entry to the back stairs to his room is right there.
(Also we are assured that screen is hooked most always. Any outer door Andrew approached woud be locked in some way- he'd know this).

Actually, I just had this decision to make. I'm not Andrew but here was my experience:

I was approaching the house. I had a suitcase and bag and purse. I had to decide which way I would enter the house. I weighed the fact that the front steps were there, and only a few compared to those steep side steps. Then I realized I was going straight upstairs to the attic so I went up the side steps, entered, detoured immediately to the right and kept going all the way up without stopping. I needed inerta to get me up there!

Anyway, guess what?
There is no more screen door!
It blew away in a wind storm about a couple of months ago!
Wow!

[Shelley]

The door will be making a comeback though-soon I hope! It had shattered into too many pieces to mend.
I wonder if Andrew was expecting his wife to be in the kitchen shuffling around making lunch as she had been too ill before to be racing around town doing errands. He may also have figured Bridget would probably be somewhere in the kitchen too. I would have thought to go to the family door if I had been Andrew, and would have been surprised not to find someone in the kitchen and the door locked at that time. I think somebody testified they saw him go up the driveway to the side entry.

Then of course if Lizzie had REALLY been in the kitchen as she finally decided she was, she should have seen or heard something. I cannot imagine they would have kept the wooden door closed as it was a perfect way to vent the hot air from the stove out of the kitchen. With the south end kitchen window open and that screen door open, there is a wonderful breeze which goes through that kitchen- even in hot summer.

[RayS]

Here's how I see it.
Andy returns to go to the back door. He sees Bridget washing the windows in the dining room. With the back door hooked (locked?) he goes to the front door as he has the keys.
Thrifty Andy would not take Bridget off her job just to let him in.
Will this solve this question about Andy's actions? Just imagine what is the reasonable action for him. IMO

[Angel]

Since I've never been to the house I don't know how far one can see into it when looking through the side screen door. Would it have been possible for Andrew to see Lizzy sitting in the kitchen reading when he tried to get in that way? If it was, then he wouldn't have gone to the front, but just called for her to open the side door. If he could see to where she would have sat and she was NOT there, then her story about being upstairs would have been true.

[Shelley]

Bridget says in her testimony that she was washing the inside of the sitting room window ( the one on the right side) when Andrew knocked at the front door so Andrew would not have seen her.

The point about Lizzie being in the kitchen has been often contended. Bridget at first said Lizzie was at the top of the stairs when Andrew came home, then she "forget"s 10 months later and says "I don't know where the girl was". Looking down the hallway at the side screen door, if Lizzie was sitting at the table, which was in front of the stove, Andrew would have seen her. In experiments we have done at the house, -with the screen door open, even if someone rattles the door, it is heard in the kitchen. I will post a photo of the sightlines Tuesday from the door looking into the kitchen.

[snokkums]

If lizzie was sitting in the kitchen reading why would Andrew have to go around the front to get in? She could have let him in.

[Shelley]

Exactly. She was NOT in the kitchen. Bridget said she was at the top of the stairs-and I buy that.

[Yooper]

If Andrew was first at the side or rear of the house, he would have probably tried the side door first. The neighbor saw him walking to the front door from the side of the house, she saw him coming around the corner of the house. If he was in the side yard at all, I can see no good reason why he wouldn't have at least tried the screen door to enter the house. He left by the side door on his way to do errands, so there was no pretense about him using the more "formal" entrance of the front door.

The question remains as to how Bridget missed seeing Lizzie in the kitchen when she brought her window cleaning implements indoors.

[Shelley]

It would seem like the side door was the one generally used by the family. I thought it odd that Lizzie said she heard Mrs. Borden come in "up front" on the day of the murder when they asked her where her mother was about 11:30. Abby knew Bridget was at home, and Lizzie too most likely. With all the people in the yard by that time, surely Mrs. Borden would not have walked right in and gone upstairs. Another thing which makes no sense, if Lizzie heard her come in earlier, when did she hear her? Lizzie was supposed to have been out in the barn before she discovered her father. Then she camped out by the side door while Bridget ran to and fro and Adelaide was talking to her. She could not have heard Abby coming in the front door then. Nice of Lizzie to "let" Abby walk right in on a murderer possibly lurking upstairs

Another little experiment tried at the house- if you go up to the screen door, expecting it to be open and try the handle, if it is locked, the bottom part opens slightly, then snaps shut with a loud rap because the hook and eyelet higher up allows the door to open somewhat. This is clearly heard in the kitchen.

[Kat]

Where do we find the "up front" comment? I'm not finding that. Thanks!

Maybe that is why Morse went to the backyard and tried to appear as if he did not notice a crowd? Because Lizzie was going to claim that Abby came in from her errand, and Abby would neeed to have walked past a kind of a crowd I suppose at 11:30? I hadn't thought of that.
Of course it's hard to know how many people had gathered out front by 11:30. (Was that about the time she was found?)

.

I think Lizzie claimed in her testimony that she did not say she thought she heard Abby come in.

I will post all of Lizzie's answers to the question of looking for Abby:

Inquest
Lizzie
65
Q. Then why did you not suppose she had gone?
A. I supposed she had gone.
Q. Did you hear her come back?
A. I did not hear her go or come back, but I supposed she went.
Q. When you found your father dead you supposed your mother had gone?
A. I did not know. I said to the people who came in "I don't know whether Mrs. Borden is out or in; I wish you would see if she is in her room."
Q. You supposed she was out at the time?
A. I understood so; I did not suppose anything about it.
_____

78
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed up stairs?
A. No, sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No, sir.
______

83
(Judge Blaisdell)-Was there any effort made by the witness to notify Mrs. Borden of the fact that Mr. Borden was found?
Q. Did you make any effort to notify Mrs. Borden of your father being killed?
A. No sir, when I found him I rushed right to the foot of the stairs for Maggie. I supposed Mrs. Borden was out. I did not think anything about her at the time, I was so-
Q. At any time did you say anything about her to anybody?
A. No sir.
Q. To the effect that she was out?
A. I told father when he came in.
Q. After your father was killed?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you say you thought she was up stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ask them to look up stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you suggest to anybody to search up stairs?
A. I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is;" that is all I said.
Q. You did not suggest that any search be made for her?
A. No sir.
Q. You did not make any yourself?
A. No sir.
Q. I want you to give me all that you did, by way of word or deed, to see whether your mother was dead or not, when you found your father was dead.
A. I did not do anything, except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her: "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look."
Q. You did ask her to look?
A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Where did you intend for her to look?
A. In Mrs. Borden's room.

[diana]

Thank you for posting all that, Kat. I've pushed that point before -- that Lizzie does not say she heard Abby come in.

I know there are witnesses who say she does -- but I still think it's important we remember that Lizzie testifies she not only didn't hear Abby come in -- she also didn't tell anyone she heard Abby come in.

I know I'm a real stickler on issues like this, but to me it's not a question of whether you believe Lizzie Borden or you believe the other witnesses.

We can say 'so and so' claims Lizzie said she heard Mrs. Borden come in'. But not Lizzie said she heard Mrs. Borden come in'.

It seems like a small discrepancy but minor points like these weigh heavily when considering guilt or innocence.

[Shelley]

Didn't Lizzie ask Bridget to go up front and look for Mrs. Borden? Adelaide said she would go with Bridget because Bridget was nervous? Up front was the only place she could say Mrs. Borden could be and could have come in at the front door because clearly the side door was "busy, busy busy" over that past 40 minutes! It makes perfect sense that someone asked Lizzie where Abby was, Bridget had been running up and down the street, Lizzie had been in the house (and barn if you believe it) and Andrew was past speaking by that time.

[Kat]

I agree. It's very important to be precise.
If Lizzie was alive now and we were debating her guilt or innocence, we would have to be precise because of the potential to take away her freedom by accusing her and throwing her in jail.
You are why I know Lizzie didn't say that about hearing Abby come in. I didn't know that until you showed us that in earlier discussions.

[Kat]

Do we have a timeline as to when Abby might have been expected to have come back in order to be killed (if Lizzie really thought that)- and what time her body was found?
And if there was a *crowd* by then?

Here is some info as to the sequence of events: (preliminary hearing)

Dr. Bowen leaves to send telegram to Emma, etc. (p. 274)

Bridget and Mrs. Churchill find Abby's body up stairs in guest room (p. 29, 30)

Bridget is sent for Mrs. Dr. Bowen (p. 84)

Bridget returns (p. 479)

Lizzie, Alice, Mrs. Churchill and Bridget are all in the kitchen (p. 285)

Mrs. Dr. Bowen comes (p. 479)

Dr. Bowen returns (p. 2 75 & W.S., p. 4)

--If Dr. Bowen's telegram was timed at 11:32 am, I think Abby was probably found sooner- like 11:20? Have we decided?

[doug65oh]

If I'm reading this correctly, that's at about 247-248 of the transcript - Bridget specifically mentions that: I said, "Miss Lizzie, if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead's was I would go and see if Mrs. Borden is there.” She said, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in," she
said, "I am sure she is up stairs." I said, "I am not going up again."

The last thing Bridget said (at 248-49) was that she went up after Adelaide agreed to accompany her.

[Shelley]

Since the key was on the mantel- "upstairs" to me meant the guestroom- not Abby's own bedroom in back.

[Kat]

Thanks DougOh.
So we can say Bridget said Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby come in.

Shelley- please excuse- your post was not there when I posted.

[Kat]

If I'm reading this correctly, that's at about 247-248 of the transcript - Bridget specifically mentions that: I said, "Miss Lizzie, if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead's was I would go and see if Mrs. Borden is there.” She said, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in," she
said, "I am sure she is up stairs." I said, "I am not going up again."

The last thing Bridget said (at 248-49) was that she went up after Adelaide agreed to accompany her.

Here is the actual transcription of Bridget in more context.
I show prelim. page 198(28):

Q. What did you do then?
A. We were talking, I said I would like to know where Mrs. Borden was. I said I would go over to Mrs. Whitehead's. She said she would like us to search for Mrs. Borden, she told us to go and search for her. I said I would go over there, if I knew where the house was. She said she was positive she heard her coming in, and would not we go up stairs and see.
Q. Who said that?
A. Miss Lizzie Borden. I said I would not go up stairs; and Mrs. Churchill said she was willing to go with me; so me and Mrs. Churchill went up the front stairs. There we found Mrs. Borden.

DougOh , where did you get your transcription? It's not the same as mine. Is that the Trial, (because I was using the prelim.)?