Emma and Lizzie - the best of friends?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Aug 29, 2004 7:19 am

Almost every book on the Borden story relates Emma's mother-like devotion to Lizzie. Undoubtedly, to some degree this was true, as in any family where there is a time gap (9 years) between children, the elder looks after the younger. Even more so when the mother is taken from them.

I always felt Lizzie to be quite independent, not in a womans-lib way, but as a person. People of that type normally don't take to being "mothered" and Lizzie when she reached maturity must have, to some degree, resented that attitude. There is a hint of that in Radin's book, p37 (paperback edition):

"Although Emma had been little Lizzie's protecting big sister, there was no close attachment between them when Lizzie entered her twenties and their age gap was no longer important. They were on friendly terms, always assisted each other, and, if one was away, dutifully wrote. But the love and devotion among brothers and sisters present in so many families was absent. They had few friends in common, shared almost no mutual interests, did not often go out together, and when they stopped spending summers at the farm in Swansea, quite frequently took separate vacations. Years later when they quarreled, neither made any serious attempt to patch it up; they separated and never saw each other again.
"

We know so little about Emma, making it difficult to understand her role in the tragedy.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:37 am

All relationships shift & change over time. If Emma did take on the role of substitute mother, trying to undermine Abby, that wouldn't have been a positive influence on Lizzie & likely she did very much grow to resent it. After years of the habit, it's unlikely Emma would give up trying to maintain that role & it's only natural Lizzie would rebel. It seems by the time Lizzie became an adult, they had an alliance & the house became divided into "Us vs Them", with the negativity focused on Andrew & Abby. With this kind of history, it doesn't really surprise me that once the perceived "negative" part of the family was gone, the girls would turn against each other over time. If the family dynamic always had a negative focus, it would be in their natures to need to shift & find another "enemy", & since all they had was each other, I can see how their split was almost inevitable.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:36 pm

William's Casebook, excerpt from Edith Coolidge Hart, 267+

"Lizzie did what a great many people with money do. She tried to buy friendship and the good times she never had. She became interested in theatre and attended it in Boston and the one-night stands in Fall River. She entertained the casts at her home after the night performance and became involved with one actress in particular, Nance O'Neil. Lizzie's sister did not think the parties were 'seemly' considering the cloud under which they had lived. She left and went to New Hampshire and, strangely, died very soon after Lizzie, although she was ten years older. None of the town's people attended the parties and probably were not invited. Sister Emma was a dour person much like her father and probably could not condone her sister's type of entertainment.

In that period it was difficult for people in any stratum of society to cultivate intimate friendships."

--I have read that Emma and Lizzie were not *close*, probably due to the age difference and their temperments.

I would think that Emma was more of her father's generation and Lizzie was more of that *gilded* time. I see that Mark Twain coined that phrase, Gilded Age? Then I read that we are to make note of the fact that he didn't say "Golden", but "Gilded"- gilded being a surface exterior- not the *real thing through-and-through.*

Emma and Andrew liked value for their money and I think Lizzie liked a lot of things cheap or expensive, as long as she found it attractive.

Tina-Kate that was an interesting view of the question.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:24 pm

I too like Tina-Kate's take on the Emma and Lizzie situation. I'm thinking if Emma was like a mother to Lizzie, then like any child, she will rebel against that parent. Most children do this during their teenage years, but, perhaps Lizzie was a late bloomer, or perhaps Emma kept Lizzie in her childlike role far into adulthood. If Lizzie reached that point of rebellion later on at Maplecroft, perhaps that could be the reason for the split between she and Emma?

And as a more seasoned adult from her jail stay, perhaps Lizzie finally wanted to be on her own and cut those apron strings finally. Especially since there was no reason for them to stay united anymore, as Tina-Kate pointed out, there wasn't any "Us against Them". It may have been one of the few things that they ever had in common.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:01 pm

Good topic and interesting thoughts. Tina-Kate, you gave me a lot to think about. It feels like you're right, in that it was only inevitable that Emma and Lizzie would eventually part company.

They always said Lizzie was more like Andrew. But like Harry says, we know so little about Emma. And we know so little about the mother, Sarah, to compare either 'girl' to.

It amazes me to know from the inquest testimony that Emma disliked Abby more than Lizzie. Who woulda guessed it, coming from this dark little mouse of a woman? So I would say who knows what the cause of her and Lizzie's breakup was? Reverend Buck did side in with Emma, tho ... But would Emma be beyond lying? We don't really know.

It's interesting to know that Emma didn't make any overtures toward making up to Lizzie. I think that tells me she was just as hard as her sister.

Maybe she was kinda like Olivia deHavilland in "The Heiress" - quiet at first, then turning old with all her inheritance, bitter and getting her revenge on Horace ...

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:14 pm

Good thoughts on this thread from everybody. I don't think Emma exaggerated her disdain for Abby, because the same impression comes through in other witness statements. I think we naturally tend to think of Emma being mousy and non-confrontational because she appears to be unconnected to the crime. But I've often thought that the war against Abby was started by Emma, and that Emma may have raised Lizzie to despise the woman. I agree that the mutual hatred may have been the sole bond between the girls. Once that hatred was resolved, though, and turned into a lasting stigma, I can see where Emma might have wanted out. She chose to go into seclusion and seems to have been determined not to enjoy any of the spoils: living as a boarder must have been a step down from Second Street!

--Lyddie

Doug · Post by **Doug** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:17 am

Interesting observations regarding the relationship between Lizzie and Emma. Until Emma moved out of Maplecroft the sisters lived together well over forty years; the only times we know for sure they were apart except during short vacations were when Lizzie traveled to Europe and while Lizzie was incarcerated. Childhood to middle age is a long time for any two people to live together, especially when their personalities are quite different as seems to be the case with the Borden sisters. Then, starting on August 4, 1892, an "elephant" shared their home, this elephant being the intimate reality, guilty knowledge, and spoken or unspoken suspicion regarding two terrible crimes very possibly committed by one of the two. I think it is remarkable that Emma stayed on with Lizzie as long as she did; while Emma could never escape what happened that August 4th she could and finally did put some physical and emotional distance between her and Lizzie. The parting was inevitable and it was a breach that could not be healed.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:59 am

The girls were also apart when Emma *went away to school*.

That was c. 1865 to/and/or 1869, for a year and a half.

Andrew married Abby June 6th, 1865. Whether this bond between sisters was intended to be broken by sending Emma away, or whether Abby intervened on Emma's behalf and talked Andrew into allowing Emma to go to some kind of finishing school with girls her own age- we may never know...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:42 am

I personally like to view it as Emma going away to finishing school, especially since college wasn't an expectation for a girl at that time. The question that comes to my mind is why only a year and a half away at school? It sounds as though she came home early, like she didn't finish, why? Homesickness? Money issues? Emma hobnobbing with boys whilst away and Andrew catching wind of it? Lizzie out of control without dear old Emma at the helm? Its one of those things that has always intriqued me.

Doug · Post by **Doug** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:41 am

I have also read/heard that the family spent time in Chicago when Lizzie was a child. If this is true Emma may have been with her parents and sister there, or possibly was away at school during this time. I suppose Emma could have gone away to school for "educational" reasons or perhaps to get her out of the household for a while if her behavior was having divisive effects.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:51 pm

Didn't Emma go away to school in Chicago? And the family came with for a time, like a few months? Long enough for Lizzie to be enrolled in Sunday school?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:52 pm

I'm afraid that was my theory- that was speculation. The timing seems right.
But so does a pregnancy! (Again, my speculation. I figured at a time when we had to have an illegitimate son, why not of Emma?)

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:26 am

So Emma wasn't in school in Chicago then? That was your speculation?

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:09 am

I'm with Kat that there's something fishy about the unspecified school. No one anywhere names the school or discusses the time in any way. It's mighty mysterious. Lizzie was so young, she may not even have known. Maybe a home for wayward girls?

--Lyddie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:25 am

Susan @ Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:26 am wrote:So Emma wasn't in school in Chicago then? That was your speculation?

Oops! I'm Not Lincoln, I just *suppose*!

Hope you've not been led astray.

I do know that FR folks are interested in the ladies academies around Massachusetts in those days of Emma's *schooling*, so we may benefit from someone's local research, eventually.