Good grief!!!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:51 am

Read the primary documents and learn something? Why would any serious Bordenphile want to do that? Its easier to read one book and be an expert.

Here's part of Moody's opening (Yes, it's from that awful source - the TRIAL) regarding the HH:

"Dr. Wood will also tell you that that break which had not the color then which it has now---it has been subjected to some acid process---was a new break and was a fresh break. By that I do not mean to be understood as a break which had necessarily occurred within twenty four hours, within forty eight hours or within a week,---but perhaps a break which might have been a day or might have been a month old. It was a fresh break."

Fleet, at the TRIAL, p477:

"Q. At that time, Mr. Fleet, did you observe anything with reference to the point of breaking of the hatchet?
A. The only thing that I recognized at the time was that this was apparently a new break.
MR. ROBINSON. I object to that answer, that this was a new break.
Q. At that time did you observe anything with reference to ashes upon the point of the break of the handle, upon the wood where it was broken?

I could go on and on and on with references to the break. There are literally hundreds of them. But it wouldn't do any good so I am not going to waste the time.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:54 am

Any one with real world experience knows the difference between a break and a sawed cut.
I once observed a person trying to break a boulder with a sledge hammer. After about 200 blows the handle broke in a transverse manner leaving a ragged break. Using a saw leaves a clean cut through the handle.
Nobody would use a saw to cut through a handle unless they wanted to recreate a relic to pass off as the handleless hatchet.
Its not just my opinion.

Instead of reading words that you don't understand, get a real world education. Are there any pictures of that handleless hatchet from 1892? There's no need to photograph the obvious.

PS - emphasis added.
Thanks for the quotes. I really believe them, and you. But you are talking about a 'break' not a saw cut.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:45 am

Telling me to get a world education? Who the hell do you think you are?
What an arrogant statement.

But what can anyone expect from the likes of you.

From now on you are on my IGNORE button.

Have a nice day, if that is possible.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:32 am

He has read 2 books- not one. Don't forget Kent.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:16 am

This sounds like a case for Michael Martins! As far as I know, when the HH was found, the piece of handle left in the hatchet head had a jagged broken edge. At some point in time, someone sawed off the splintered edges, perhaps at the FRHS? Wasn't there a photograph of an author posted at one time holding the HH where the wood looks to be jagged still?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:03 pm

Susan @ Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:16 am wrote:This sounds like a case for Michael Martins! As far as I know, when the HH was found, the piece of handle left in the hatchet head had a jagged broken edge. At some point in time, someone sawed off the splintered edges, perhaps at the FRHS? Wasn't there a photograph of an author posted at one time holding the HH where the wood looks to be jagged still?

I think it was Agnes De Mille who said that hatchet was in the Jennings house w/ other records of the trial. Did they donate it to the FRHS?

Note how many talk of this item, which has nothing to do with the innocence of Lizzie!!!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:05 pm

Kat @ Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:32 am wrote:He has read 2 books- not one. Don't forget Kent.

I am hugely flattered that you admit I can read more than one book.

I can also prioritized the books according to their reliability and relevance.
Can anyone else do this? Surely they're not all equal?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:07 pm

Harry @ Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:45 am wrote:Telling me to get a world education? Who the hell do you think you are?
What an arrogant statement.

But what can anyone expect from the likes of you.

From now on you are on my IGNORE button.

Have a nice day, if that is possible.

You are free to ignore me or the evidence as much as you please.
I am sorry for appearing to be "arrogant". But really, can't anyone else tell the difference between a sawn cut and a break?
Its like saying Lizzie drove her own car and showing a Mini Cooper as hers (with the appropriate colour scheme!).

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:25 pm

Susan, it is Edward Rowe Snow in the 1950's* who has the photo with the HH.
Of course ray has said in the past that the splinters are shadows in the picture.
(*I think it was his book published in the 50's)

Snow, Edward Rowe. "Lizzie Borden." Boston Bay Mysteries and Other Tales. NY: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1977. 237-259.

Snow, Edward Rowe. "The Lizzie Borden Murder Case." Piracy, Mutiny and Murder. NY: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1959. 248-288.
Snow focues his essay on the now-famous shoplifting incident of 1897, where Lizzie was accused by Tilden-Thurber of Providence, RI of stealing two small paintings. Relating how the "confession'' was obtained, Snow professes Lizzie's signature to be authentic. Later experts have since disputed and disproven its authenticity.

Snow, Edward Rowe. "Lizzie Borden, Newburyport and Timothy Dexter." Fantastic Folklore and Fact: New England Tales of Land and Sea. NY: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1968. 37-39.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... hyCase.htm

I just re-read about those splinters last night. They were coming off even during it's exposure as a trial exhibit.
Not only that, but the small piece was out of the head on the stand.
~~~

BTW: ray, I know you have 800+ book reviews on Amazon dot com. So you must have read more than 2 books total in your life.
I just don't know how many on the Borden case.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:18 pm

Oops, sorry Kat, I reported you by accident when I meant to just reply to your message, sorry.

Anyhoo, thank you for the info. So, if that pic is from some time in the 50s we lose the splinters at some point after; was the HH in the possesion of the FRHS by then, or was it some time in the 60s? It would be interesting to find out who decided to do it and why. I'm thinking about what Shelley had posted about Abby's bloody hanky; that had been cleaned and preserved, it would be nice to have the artifacts in as close a condition as they were found in 1892. Unless, of course, if their integrity is compromised by certain conditions like say the blood.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:52 am

I think I get reported and apologized to more than any other member! I wonder what Stefani thinks?!

The Hip-bath Collection was donated to the FRHS in 1968, per Barbara Ashton's article on it in Proceedings.
I think quite a few people had handled that artifact once it was uncovered.

When we handled it at the FRHS the little piece of wood was very loose and I didn't know it had once been out of the head- so I warned Dennis it felt like it could fall out. He took my comment under advisement- but now I think he probably knew it would be loose and probably always was loose.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:37 am

There is a book "True Detectives" by William Parkhurst (? memory?).
One chapter tells about frauds in a private museum. Read it for some interesting true stories (names changed of course).
Could some wealthy collector have bought the original and substituted a copy? (Not necessarily the FRHS.)

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:26 pm

Yes Rays. That is a misnomer about Lizzie's Driving. Because of the shape of her head many have concluded that she drove a Mini Cooper but it was really an MGB. Blood red. She especially appreciated the Ax compartment. It was purchased on her trip to Europe.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:03 pm

" Are there any pictures of that handleless hatchet from 1892? "

Ray, you ARE kidding me aren't you? Surely you have seen the photo of the 1892 handleless hatchet? It is only in just about every book out there on Lizzie. . .

Look it up.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:06 pm

http://www.frpd.org/images/lizzie/Photo ... hachet.jpg

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:20 pm

Shelley @ Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:06 pm wrote:http://www.frpd.org/images/lizzie/Photo ... hachet.jpg

Thanks for your help.
That picture clearly shows a sawed-off clean cut on the handle. No jagged break!
Are there any early pictures from circa 1969 or earlier?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:22 pm

Kat @ Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:25 pm wrote:Susan, it is Edward Rowe Snow in the 1950's* who has the photo with the HH.
Of course ray has said in the past that the splinters are shadows in the picture.
(*I think it was his book published in the 50's)

Snow, Edward Rowe. "Lizzie Borden." Boston Bay Mysteries and Other Tales. NY: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1977. 237-259.

Snow, Edward Rowe. "The Lizzie Borden Murder Case." Piracy, Mutiny and Murder. NY: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1959. 248-288.
Snow focues his essay on the now-famous shoplifting incident of 1897, where Lizzie was accused by Tilden-Thurber of Providence, RI of stealing two small paintings. Relating how the "confession'' was obtained, Snow professes Lizzie's signature to be authentic. Later experts have since disputed and disproven its authenticity.

Snow, Edward Rowe. "Lizzie Borden, Newburyport and Timothy Dexter." Fantastic Folklore and Fact: New England Tales of Land and Sea. NY: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1968. 37-39.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... hyCase.htm

I just re-read about those splinters last night. They were coming off even during it's exposure as a trial exhibit.
Not only that, but the small piece was out of the head on the stand.
~~~

BTW: ray, I know you have 800+ book reviews on Amazon dot com. So you must have read more than 2 books total in your life.
I just don't know how many on the Borden case.

I think it would be better to post the picture of the hatchet at that point in time. What year was picture taken?

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:22 pm

that picture does look pretty straight and even across the bottom..........you'd think if it was broken it'd be a whole lot more raggidy and splintered. but even sawing it could leave a few splinters, especially around the outer edges.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:59 am

Was that how the Prosecution helped to fix the case? Showing a sawn-off handle and pretending it was broken off in the murders would damage the prosecution's case for the experienced jurors.

When I was in 3rd grade my chore was to saw kindling so it would fit into the hot water heater to prepare for a coal fire. I knew the difference between a saw cut and a cut chopped by a hatchet.

IF that is the original version of the hatchet, the handle was not broken off.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:10 pm

I thought they couldn't conclusively say that THAT was the murder weapon, there was no blood or hair (from Andy or Abby) on it.....if that's the case, where is the real murder weapon, even if Lizzie did do it, where could she have hidden it? and if someone got it out of the house for her, where could they have hidden it? I mean if it was a stranger who left and took it with them, and they tossed it under some bushes to get it out of their possession, someone would have found it and known what it was....I mean how many bloody hatchets are laying around town?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:18 pm

shakiboo @ Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:10 pm wrote:I thought they couldn't conclusively say that THAT was the murder weapon, there was no blood or hair (from Andy or Abby) on it.....if that's the case, where is the real murder weapon, even if Lizzie did do it, where could she have hidden it? and if someone got it out of the house for her, where could they have hidden it? I mean if it was a stranger who left and took it with them, and they tossed it under some bushes to get it out of their possession, someone would have found it and known what it was....I mean how many bloody hatchets are laying around town?

No, the intruder kept it as it was a practical and useful tool.
Mark Felt's book tells about an old couple who was killed with a hatchet. This hired driver kept the hatchet because it was still useful. It doesn't make a lot of noise like a gun, and can kill as quickly with a head chop. Tomahawks are as American as succotash.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:20 pm

Kat @ Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:32 am wrote:He has read 2 books- not one. Don't forget Kent.

I was in 3rd grade when my chore was to saw wood for kindling. I was not trusted with a hatchet. My Dad would take a piece of kindling, whack it with a hatchet head, then raise the two and bring them down on the wooden block to split it. It impressed me. A few years later we got central heat and this chore passed away.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:22 pm

Susan @ Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:16 am wrote:This sounds like a case for Michael Martins! As far as I know, when the HH was found, the piece of handle left in the hatchet head had a jagged broken edge. At some point in time, someone sawed off the splintered edges, perhaps at the FRHS? Wasn't there a photograph of an author posted at one time holding the HH where the wood looks to be jagged still?

Yes, that is how it must have been. Somebody decided to make some changes to improve the evidence. We'll never know who?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:49 am

The splinters were coming off during the trial. It sounded like they were trying to keep them together with the piece of wood tho.
The hatchet head was handed out without the piece of wood in at all.
It really is very short- shorter than it looks because about 1/2 of that showing belongs up inside. That's the only thing you do not see. Otherwise, it seems pretty simple to me that splinters would degrade and come off over time. No conspiracy. No lying. Just the effects of age and handling.
IMO. I have had my eyeball up inside there after all.

album_personal.php?user_id=5

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:59 am

Kat @ Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:49 am wrote:The splinters were coming off during the trial. It sounded like they were trying to keep them together with the piece of wood tho.
The hatchet head was handed out without the piece of wood in at all.
It really is very short- shorter than it looks because about 1/2 of that showing belongs up inside. That's the only thing you do not see. Otherwise, it seems pretty simple to me that splinters would degrade and come off over time. No conspiracy. No lying. Just the effects of age and handling.
IMO. I have had my eyeball up inside there after all.

album_personal.php?user_id=5

Speaking from experience, no one would believe a hatchet with a loose head could be the murder weapon. Striking anything would cause the loose head to fly loose. Don't try this at home, since you could be held responsible for any injury or damage caused by such a misuse of a tool.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:08 am

It was also said the claw head hatchet had a loose handle as well.
The thing is we don't know if these were deliberately loosened after the crime so as to make them seem unsuitable.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:32 pm

Kat @ Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:08 am wrote:It was also said the claw head hatchet had a loose handle as well.
The thing is we don't know if these were deliberately loosened after the crime so as to make them seem unsuitable.

Are you saying that the police tampered with the evidence to prove Lizzie innocent? A loose head will "fly off the handle" and is worthless for any use.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:26 pm

Kat @ Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:08 pm wrote:It was also said the claw head hatchet had a loose handle as well.
The thing is we don't know if these were deliberately loosened after the crime so as to make them seem unsuitable.

I just can't picture Lizzie even thinking about loosening the head of any weapon, it just doesn't ring true somehow.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:02 am

I don't have an answer. I'm led to understand that hatchet heads can be removed from their handles and replaced. A new handle is somewhat common. People keep the hatchet head and replace the handle as often as needed. They could be ordered from Sears by mail.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:15 pm

Kat @ Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:02 am wrote:I don't have an answer. I'm led to understand that hatchet heads can be removed from their handles and replaced. A new handle is somewhat common. People keep the hatchet head and replace the handle as often as needed. They could be ordered from Sears by mail.

One trick is to drive a nail into the end of the handle to better secure the head.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:26 pm

shakiboo @ Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:26 pm wrote:
Kat @ Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:08 pm wrote:It was also said the claw head hatchet had a loose handle as well.
The thing is we don't know if these were deliberately loosened after the crime so as to make them seem unsuitable.
I just can't picture Lizzie even thinking about loosening the head of any weapon, it just doesn't ring true somehow.

I can't believe that Lizzie would think to loosen the head of the hatchet either, but that is just my opinion. I have the impression Lizzie was pretty inexperienced when it came to these kinds of implements. I'm not sure she knew much about them past the fact that you pick one up and swing it to chop stuff up.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:53 pm

There are a couple of hatchet stories told on Lizzie but they may be apocryphal. Have you guys heard these?

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:47 pm

I haven't heard them, do tell Kat!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:19 pm

Kat @ Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:53 pm wrote:There are a couple of hatchet stories told on Lizzie but they may be apocryphal. Have you guys heard these?

Who is the eyewitness? What is the date, time, and place?

Inquiring minds wasnt to know.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:19 pm

Kat @ Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:53 pm wrote:There are a couple of hatchet stories told on Lizzie but they may be apocryphal. Have you guys heard these?

Who is the eyewitness? What is the date, time, and place?

Inquiring minds wasnt to know.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:46 pm

I believe one of the hatchet stories involves Lizzie killing Abby's cat. There is another story which involves Lizzie killing a horse because it threw her when she was riding, I think. The horse story I'm not so sure about. But the story about her killing the cat I've heard many times, and I don't believe it to be true.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:20 pm

I can't picture her killing a cat either, I'd heard that one before, but the horse one is new to me. Sounds like something children would make up, to make her sound really horrible.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:17 pm

There's the one about Lizzie on a picnic with some lady friends out in a field. There was a ramshackle shed about to fall down. When one of the spinsters remarked about it being such a wreck, Lizzie was to have said "Oh, just give me an axe and I'll have it down in no time at all."

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:24 pm

Good thing they didn't take her up on it or she could have sealed her doom!! lol

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:52 pm

I am glad of the help looking up the hatchet stories, but I was involved in finding the sources first. Can you guys who contributed stories get back with us on the source? Thanks a bunch- that would be helpful!

Here is my one so far:

Williams, Joyce G., J. Eric Smithburn, and Jeanne M. Peterson. Lizzie Borden: A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890s. Bloomington, IN: T.I.S. Publications Division, 1980. Page 263:

“Mrs. Ellis A. (Ruth) Waring, related by marriage to Defense Attorney Jennings and a resident of Swansea, where Andrew Borden owned property. Mrs. Waring’s neighbor, Calvin Gardner, was the son of Chester Gardner, whose father’s farm adjoined Andrew Borden’s property. (Interview, July 5, 1979)

‘Chester Gardner, who was about sixteen at the time, told us that about three days before the murder, Lizzie came over to Swansea to get an axe sharpened so she could kill some chickens.’ [They did as she asked.]”

Bridget was asked if Lizzie was gone the Saturday before the crimes- also the Sunday. (Prelim54) Bridget didn't recall. Maybe that's where Lizzie was that day out of town?
[If the story is believable).

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:36 am

Stories concocted years after the trial are worth less than anything documented before the murder.
Are there any such stories? I know of none.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:01 pm

Shelley @ Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:17 pm wrote:There's the one about Lizzie on a picnic with some lady friends out in a field. There was a ramshackle shed about to fall down. When one of the spinsters remarked about it being such a wreck, Lizzie was to have said "Oh, just give me an axe and I'll have it down in no time at all."

Here is that one, transcribed:

Pearson, Edmund Lester. "Legends of Lizzie." More Studies in Murder. NY: Harrison Smith and Robert Haas, 1936. 121-132.:

"It comes from a friendly source, that is, from a believer in Miss Lizzie's innocence of murder. The teller of the tale was a witness to the incident. Miss Lizzie, some years after her acquittal, visited two sisters who owned a farm in the country. In her presence, these ladies always avoided unpleasant topics of conversation. for instance, keeping in mind the ancient precept of courtesy that in a family in which someone has been hanged, one does not speak of ropes, the two ladies always were careful to say nothing about axes or hatchets. Although the Borden murders were undoubtly committed with a small hatchet, the word 'axe' got into the case- probably because of the popular ryhme...
As Miss Borden and her hostesses walked about the farm, one of the sisters pointed to an old shed, tumble-down and decayed.
'Look at that wreck,' said she. 'Tomorrow i'll have Mike pull it down and cart it off.'
Miss Lizzie's sudden and enthusiastic response made them gasp. She exclaimed:
'You don't need to get Mike to do it. i could do it now. Gimme the axe!' "

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:04 pm

Allen @ Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:46 pm wrote:I believe one of the hatchet stories involves Lizzie killing Abby's cat. There is another story which involves Lizzie killing a horse because it threw her when she was riding, I think. The horse story I'm not so sure about. But the story about her killing the cat I've heard many times, and I don't believe it to be true.

There are several cat stories. I'm not sure about that horse either. Have you found that one yet?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:16 pm

Pearson, Edmund Lester. "A Postscript: The End of the Borden Case." Five Murders. Garden City, NY: Doubleday, Doran & Co., 1928. 263-294.

"The other legend is more pleasing. There came one day to the house (whether the humble old home on Second Street or the more spacious Maplecroft, I do not know) an express messenger, bringing in his wagon a wooden box for Miss Borden. She met him inside and asked him to open the box for her. He started to tear off the top with his hands, when Miss Lizzie remarked:
'Wait a minute. I'll go down cellar and get the hatchet.'
She was gone but an instant, but when she reappeared the man was not there. Wondering, she ran to the window and looked down the street. Far away and already vanishing in a mighty cloud of dust went the express wagon at top speed; the driver was standng up and lashing at his horse, in terror for his life."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:46 pm

Boston Sunday Herald, 6 April 1913, "Lizzie Borden Twenty Years After The Tragedy" by Gertrude Stevenson:

..."One story repeated again and again deals with a grocery man who called at Lizzie Borden's home to deliver a barrel of flour. According to the story, Lizzie Borden asked the grocer if he would open the barrel for her.
'Certainly,' he replied.
'Wait a minute until I run down cellar and get the hatchet,' said Miss Borden. According to the story, the grocer's man is running yet."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:48 pm

Gee I wonder where Pearson got his *story?*

At least his came out after Lizbeth died.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:51 pm

One cat story comes from Abby Borden Potter in Robert Sullivan's "Goodbye Lizzie Borden" (sorry, I don't have it handy to give a page number).
There is a brief mention by Victoria Lincoln of Lizzie being thrown by a horse:
"Lizzie's other documented attacks were not violent. Nor were those we knew of by hearsay, except for the ludicrous, persistent myths that we have heard from outsiders and laughingly discounted, myths such as that as of her shooting a horse in a fit of sudden rage because it had thrown her." (p 25)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:19 am

Wow Stuart! I'm impressed!
I don't remember that one at all.
Whew! Poor Lizzie!

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:19 am

With that book only being 28 pages and that expensive, they can keep that book. Don't need a lizzie book that badly.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:30 am

snokkums @ Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:19 am wrote:With that book only being 28 pages and that expensive, they can keep that book. Don't need a lizzie book that badly.

Snok,

Maybe I am confused, or maybe I missed something. To which book are you referring ? Which one do you think has 28 pages and is 'expensive' ? What is the price you feel is 'expensive' ?

Tracy...