A certain coldness

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:20 pm

I noticed that the two personal letters that Lizzie wrote, both addressed to "Dear friend" both are signed just "L. A. Borden".

In both letters she appears to know the person to whom she is writing but still that cold signature. No Liz, no Lizzie, no Lizbeth. Just L.A. Borden.

Makes me wonder what she signed herself when she wrote to Emma.

I can't imagine myself writing to a friend and signing it H. E. Widdows.

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:40 pm

You've got to allow for changes in customs. It was a more formal era. A lot of things that would strike us as cold would not necessarily have seemed so then. On the other hand, informality is not always warm. For example, the fact that many of us nowadays address our bosses by their first names does not necessarily indicate that we are particularly fond of them. (And surely we all have known people of whom we were fond whom we addressed by title.)

(I don't believe that "Liz" came in until well into the 20th century. It seems to me that "Lizzie," long unfashionable (probably because of our Lizzie), is making a comeback.)

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:49 pm

I see your point to a certain degree. On the other hand I have also seen lots of letters and postcards of that era signed only with first names.

It just seems so formal for a personal letter even for 1892.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:00 pm

That makes me wonder how close this "Dear Friend" really was? Was it more like a friend of a friend that Lizzie became acquainted with and wanted to pursue a closer friendship, hence the letter writing. That one letter Lizzie wrote about sitting on the piazza in her steamer chair building castles in the sky doesn't seem to be filled with much content as one would write to a close friend. I wonder if there are other examples of letters she wrote to people that we know Lizzie was close to, even if it was at one point in time, say like Alice Russell.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:18 pm

From what Radin says Lizzie opened all her letters with the "Dear friend" salutation so thats a stumbling block.

The two letters we know about the "I dreamt of you last night" one and the letter she allegedly wrote to her fiance apologizing for the announcement in the paper of their engagement were both signed L.A. Borden.

diana · Post by **diana** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:45 pm

As was the complaint to her neighbor about the bird -- which she closed with: "very truly yours L.A. Borden".

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:11 am

Regarding the age of the "Liz" nickname, it went back as far as the murders, but it may not have been a "nice girl" nickname. One of the Ripper victims, Elizabeth Stride, was nicknamed "Long Liz."

--Lyddie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:01 am

I've not heard of her ever being called "Liz." Yes she'd put a stop to that pretty quick!

Maybe the L.A. Borden signature was to try to protect her annonimity in the future? Could she have known her signature would be collected in the future? She was aware of being infamous.
Or is it a lack of true caring, that's the question. Remaining aloof, even tho she might be writing to...well, I heard recently that this "I dreamed of you" letter was to her seamstress- I don't know if I believed that- but hey, if "L.A. Borden" is writing her seamstress, yes she would keep a bit of distance.
I am collecting questions for MM or Dennis- I should add this one about to whom the "I dreamed of you" letter was addressed. There's such a thing as an envelope, right?
Maybe she was writing only to "servants" , or maybe only the servant's letters are archived?

--please ignore how many edits this went thru- the print is smaller than my eyes!

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:14 pm

I really don't think there is any significance to Lizzie's "aloofness." It was simply a matter of her particular style, based on temperament and/or upbringing. (I certainly didn't mean to suggest that there was no individual variation in this matter -- then or now.)

When you have committed murder (or when you are alleged to have (or even when you haven't and aren't), it is very easy to read significance into any of your traits, actions or utterances. I'm sure lots of people who sign even letters to friends with their initials and surname never chop up anyone (or are even alleged to have). And lots of murderers are not aloof.

As George Bernard Shaw rightly put it in his play Heartbreak House, "People don't have their vices and virtues in sets . . . they have them anyhow, all mixed.

I had forgotten about "Long Liz." Right you are, Lyddie.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:29 pm

Well, I've been trying to reach the FRHS because of my list of questions anyhow. They are taking voice mail and say will return a call. That won't work for me but since Thursday is Archive Day I will try again tomorrow.
I am intrigued that the "I Dreamed Of You Letter" might be to Lizbeth's seamstress, and if so it makes sense to me that she might add a bit of distance while telling basically her servant that she dreamed about her.
The whole thing is odd. It may merely be an affectation, I suppose, but still a quirk nonetheless.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:11 pm

I have always signed my name NJWolfe, and to
friends just nj. I never thought anything of it until
just now! I think it is more of a "lazy" thing than
aloof (or combo). That would be interesting to find out if the "i had a dream" letter was to the seamstress.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:35 pm

It was a shocker to me to hear there was an envelope to that letter, I'll tell you!
Yes, you're right-it will be very interesting.
I'm calling Thursday.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:43 pm

Who would have taught Lizzie whatever "social skills" she had? How did Emma sign letters? Andrew?

It could just be social clumsiness by somebody who wasn't too worldly.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:49 pm

My great grandmother saved the love letters my great gf sent to her....

He signed each and every one of them with his full name.

I remember GWTW. In the 1860's Ellen O'Hara referred to her husband as Mr O'Hara in front of her children.... Was this a southern custom or was it more widespread?

My signature is little more than my initials. I sign it to everything. Letters, documents, checks, etc.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:01 pm

I talked to the FRHS. They are so wonderfully helpful...and gracious.

The letter in question: "I dreamed of you" is in a folder in use and they didn't wish to commit until next week when the envelope/letter are filed. But it may very possibly be (my words) that that letter was to Lizzie's dressmaker, Mrs. Cummings.
There were 3 letters with envelopes in that cache, that Augusta saw last week and told me about. That is what I wanted to verify.
One is the Emma letter to Mrs. Cummings that we see in Spiering.
My impression from Augusta was that these 3 letters are to Cummings.
That includes the "Apology" letter, which is verified today to have been written to Mrs. Cummings. That letter, we had thought, was to her rumoured fiance apologising for the news item which claimed they were engaged.
It turns out the letter is to the same dressmaker.
Maybe Someone can give its contents here?
There is no bio info on Mrs. Cummings in The Knowlton Papers, so we don't know their level of intimacy.

As to salutations, I was given an example of a letter from David Brayton to his brother, in the similar time period:

My dear brother

etc

I am your loving brother,
D A Brayton

diana · Post by **diana** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 7:30 pm

That's good info. Kat. And the Brayton letter does seem to indicate that even intimate family correspondence was signed off in the same formal way in those days.

Is this the apology letter?

"MY DEAR FRIEND:
I am more sorry than I can tell you that you have had any trouble over the false and silly story that has been about the last week or so. How or when, it started I have not the least idea. But never for a moment did I think you or your girls started it. Of course I am feeling very badly about it but I must just bear [it] as I have in the past. I do hope you will not be annoyed again. Take care of yourself, so you can get well.

Yours sincerely,
L. A. BORDEN " (source: Radin p. 226)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:13 am

Yes, thank you Diana- that is the letter.
It was explained that that letter was to Mrs. Cummings basically saying (about the "engagement rumor" in the papers) that she didn't blame or believe that the girls (nieces?) had started all this talk.

Spiering gives this legend under the reproduction of the "I dreamed of you letter":
"From Lizzie's letter to a female friend." Now does he want us to jump to the conclusion as to Lizzie's preference for women friends? Or did we read that into it? Was this a kind of a form of manipulation? If he reproduced that letter he had to have seen to whom the envelope was addressed.
Someone who is recently familiar with Spiering have an opinion?

Now where is that engagement rumor from the paper?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:25 am

Kat @ Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:13 am wrote:Now where is that engagement rumor from the paper?

Radin's book has a few paragraphs on the alleged engagement beginning on page 225+ (paperback edition):

"There are some indications that romance may have entered Lizzie Borden's life about three years after her trial, when she was a woman of thirty-six. The Fall River News, which carefully checked its stories before using them, published a brief item that Lizzie's friends were expecting her to announce her engagement to a Swansea schoolteacher. It hinted that the couple had known each other since childhood; he had lived on a farm near where Lizzie had spent her summers. The story was picked up by the wire services and out-of-town reporters soon swarmed into Fall River and Swansea. The schoolteacher went into hiding. Lizzie, of course, maintained her aloofness from the press. If anything ever convinced Lizzie that the blight of the trial had made her public property, it probably was this incident. No engagement was ever announced and Lizzie never married.

One may reasonably ask why Lizzie Borden did not move away from Fall River and lose herself in the anonymity of a large city. The answer lies in her character. She was a stubborn woman and as she said at the end of her trial, "I am going home and I am going to stay there."

The story of the expected engagement appeared on December 10, 1896. I found a letter written by Lizzie dated December 12, two days later, which could indicate that there was no truth to the engagement story, but it may have been referring to some other incident. Lizzie Borden had, from a researcher's viewpoint, an irritating habit of starting all her letters with the salutation, "My dear Friend," thus making it impossible to identify the person to whom it was written. This letter shows Lizzie's attitude toward the stories circulating about her.

MY DEAR FRIEND:
I am more sorry than I can tell you that you have had any trouble over the false and silly story that has been about the last week or so. How or when, it started I have not the least idea. But never for a moment did I think you or your girls started it. Of course I am feeling very badly about it but I must just bear [it) as I have in the past. I do hope you will not be annoyed again. Take care of yourself, so you can get well.

Yours sincerely,
L. A. BORDEN"

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:53 pm

she sounds like a very nice lady. will be interesting
if those letters are all from the seamstress.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:44 pm

Thanks Harry!
William wrote to me a source as well.
I appreciate the help in looking up these things in The Authors.

Augusta was there at FRHS just over a week ago and she is the one who broke the story to me about the envelopes. I was shocked and thought "Why didn't we know this after all this time?" So Augusta was relying on her memory and was fine with me attempting to verify what she recounted to me:
That these 2 letters are from L.A. Borden To her dressmaker, Mrs. Cummings and the reason we know she was the dressmaker is because the letter in Spiering From Emma is to her as well (making 3 in total), and relates her wishes as to her upcoming wardrobe planning.

"As she conveyed in a letter to the dressmaker, Mrs. Cummings, even though she would be away for part of the summer her needs would be meager:

Mrs. Cummings (dressmaker)
I received your message last evening and think you are very kind to remember me.
I hope to be in the country some this Summer, so think one dress will be all I need; I think an India or China silk as useful as any thin dress, and if you will bring patterns of something with dark ground, something suitable for church wear and for calling. I will go to see you the middle of the week. I suppose you will be home by that time.
I hope this wind will go down before night, that you may have a pleasant and safe passage to New York.
Truly yours,
Emma L. Borden
March 23, 1894"

--From Lizzie, Frank Spiering, 1984, Random House
--Nancie do you have this book? The actual photo of this letter and the one by Lizzie are in the pictures section and looking at the handwriting is very interesting.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 01, 2004 11:30 am

Here is an example of Lizzie's handwriting
It has strikes almost, instead of "strokes".

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 01, 2004 11:32 am

Emma's handwriting looks to me as still having the influence of a schoolgirl's teacher.

Please click on thumbnail.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sat May 01, 2004 1:51 pm

very interesting, so all the letters in question are to
dressmaker? Aaaah i'm dying to go off topic here
to say something but I don't want to get arrested by
the OFF TOPIC POLICE, I'll start another topic later

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat May 01, 2004 2:02 pm

They do seem to be very fond of that dressmaker. Perhaps she was a whiz on cutting against the bias?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sat May 01, 2004 2:54 pm

OK, so what does Quils magnet..etc mean?
I have sewn all my life, love it, did dressmaking and
alterations always as a side kick to whatever regular job I had. I Love to sew. That is where the
dressmaker connection comes in so I won't get in
trouble for posting off topic. A dressmaker is like the bartender, you really get to know your clients and talk to them. I am glad to hear those letters are with dressmaker!

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat May 01, 2004 4:04 pm

Qu'ils mangent de la brioche is the origin of "let them eat cake".

I also used to take in sewing. I still make a lot of my own clothes.

You are right-- it is rather like a bartender or a hair dresser! The dressmaker or alterations person always knows your real measurements!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 15, 2004 12:07 am

Harry @ Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:20 pm wrote:I noticed that the two personal letters that Lizzie wrote, both addressed to "Dear friend" both are signed just "L. A. Borden".

In both letters she appears to know the person to whom she is writing but still that cold signature. No Liz, no Lizzie, no Lizbeth. Just L.A. Borden.

Makes me wonder what she signed herself when she wrote to Emma.

I can't imagine myself writing to a friend and signing it H. E. Widdows.

We have a book called Good Manners For All Occasions, by Margaret E. Sangster, 1904.
There is a section on the signature to a letter. Please click on pic.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sat May 15, 2004 9:42 pm

i'm feeling defensive here, i always sign njwolfe.
can't Lizzie sign her
name however she wants. LA Borden. I never discussed with anyone how I would sign my name, it was a simple personal thing. Can Lizzie be afforded the same right? or no? I am too attached
to Lizzie, help me! I want her to sign her name however she wants!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 15, 2004 10:35 pm

This is just a tool to help people of the 21st century understand the society's rules of the 19th.
They were probably taught this stuff in school, like their penmanship- and like penmanship, that would probably change and evolve and become more individual and personal as the person matured.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Sun May 16, 2004 9:35 am

Why can't we all just get along!

Actually, if L.A. Borden was what she was using as her legal signature, I think Lizzie may be able to eat her cake and have it too. I suspect that the notoriety of her full given name may have driven her to sign by the more anonymous initials. (Presuming this signature predates the change to "Lizbeth.") I do think she wanted to shed "Lizzie" and all the baggage that went with it. The manners guide certainly is followed to the letter in her inclusion of a surname.

As for how people sign themselves today--I can't say that I pay so much attention to people's signatures as I do to the contents of their letters. If those are friendly, the signatures are neither hot nor cold. (Unless. of course, it is a mash note--but that's covered by contents too, isn't it?

--Lyddie

Bronte · Post by **Bronte** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:21 pm

I think she signed her name that way as a means for her privacy and the person she was writing to as well Lizzie was so well known that she had to take certain precautions.I will also say that Lizzie's handwriting was terrible most people from her era had beautiful handwriting I was shocked at how sloppy her was very shocked actually..

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:14 pm

People were a great deal more formal in those days, so I don't place great importance on her signature. It's true most people had nice flowing copybook handwriting, but I expect some didn't. I wonder whether medical people, doctors etc., who have the worst handwriting in the modern era were the same then!

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

A certain coldness

A certain coldness

Lizzie's Handwriting

Emma's Handwriting

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Re: A certain coldness

Re: A certain coldness