A Boy and a Note

[Harry]

Assuming there was a note in the first place, it's delivery is a mystery in itself. The only source for the note is Lizzie and she says she neither seen the note nor the boy who delivered it. Other than this I can't seem to find anyone who saw the boy come to the front door. Lincoln (p70) has this:

"... But there is also impressive evidence that the note did come. In the first place, a young man was seen going to the front door at nine; it was briefly opened to him, but he did not go in."

She does not cite a source. Who was it that allegedly seen the boy? In lieu of not finding the boy himself this person would be able to offer important evidence in the case. Was he or she looked for? There doesn't appear to be much on this anywhere.

Then there is this footnote in Pearson's 1937 Trial of Lizzie Borden, p35:

"(15) That "Mrs Borden was called to the rear door by a boy who presented a note" is asserted as if it were a proven fact by Arthur S. Phillips, Esq. (New Bedford Standard-Times, May 13, 1934.) Mr Phillips, who aided Mr Jennings in preparing the defence, adds that defence counsel "believed that the note called for the delivery to the bearer of some article from Mr Morse's room; that the assassin followed Mrs Borden into that room . . . " It is not clear whether this means that the boy was also the assassin, or if there were two in the plot. At all events, why Mrs Borden should have deceived Miss Lizzie as to the contents of the note, saying that it said "somebody was sick" (see Miss Borden's inquest statement), and where the "assassin" was standing during the conversation between the two women, are points which this theory does not reveal."

Here we have possibly two people coming to the door with again no source.

[RayS]

I believe there was a note delivered to bring Abby out of the house for that private meeting. But no one can prove it.
Arnold Brown uses the known facts to say this was part of the cover-up. If they found out who sent for Abby that would lead to the murderer.

Brown notes that William Bassett's daughter died months later. He assumes that this was the reason to get Abby out of the house.
Anyone care to comment?

[sguthmann]

I see 2 possibilities regarding "the note":

1. There never was a note.
2. The note somehow played a role in the days events to such an extent that whoever was involved with its creation and delivery would not come forward for fear of being linked to the murders...with good reason?

I would place my $ on the first explanation.

[Harry]

I was not interested in the note itself (Assuming that there was one. I don't believe so myself.) but who was it that supposedly seen the boy deliver it.

I just can't find a witness who claimed to have seen a boy delivering a note.

[sguthmann]

Here's another thing that has puzzled me about "the note."

Lizzie explains coming downstairs that fateful morning and speaking briefly with Abby. According to Lizzie, Abby inquires her how she (Lizzie) is feeling, notes that she's been up tidying the guest room and is going to put some pillowcases on the pillows, and says she has had a note from someone who is sick and is going to go out to visit them. If I'm not mistaken, Andrew would still be at home at the time of this alleged conversation, and would have been around the house while these things Abby was describing were going on.

Jump ahead now to Andrew going out, and returning home about 10:45 am. Lizzie asks if there was any mail and informs him that Abby left the house because she'd received a note that someone was ill.

My question: why would Lizzie need to inform Andrew that Abby had received a note that someone was ill and had gone out if Andrew was supposedly still at home when the "note" would have had to have been delivered? In fact, if such a note had been delivered,and Lizzie and Bridget didn't answer the door, then it stands that only Andrew or Abby could have received the note. There's a 50% chance right there alone that Andrew would have answered the door and known all about the note. But for the sake of argument, let's go with the other 50% and say Abby answered the door and received the note herself. Would she have simply left the house, while Andrew was still at home, without so much as a word of explanation or parting? And yet, if Andrew wasn't aware that she was out or the reason for it, wouldn't that have had to be the case? It makes no sense!

[sguthmann]

Harry, unless you count the accounts of the strange young man reportedly seen about the neighborhood and near the Borden house that morning, then I can think of no one else that could be the "mystery note deliverer." And I believe all those accounts note that it was a young man - not a boy?

A boy, simply delivering a note, innocently enough, and in light of such a horrific crime...why wouldn't he come forward and explain his role? Would his family and friends really have kept him silent for fear that the lad could be in danger himself? I don't know. I just know I don't think that there was "a note" - or a boy.

[doug65oh]

The only source I can think of offhand for that - the "fact" of the note -would have been Lizzie herself (thru Bridget I think, pg. 236 of the trial transcription.) But as far as the supposed messenger, I've been looking the past while here and can't find so much as a single peep. No mention of a boy, another person, or anything of the sort. (Not even a carrier pigeon.)

[Harry]

Right you are, Doug, nary a witness. Phillips seems specific but his comments weren't made until 1934, some 42 years later.

It would have aided the defense to bring forward a witness who had seen a boy come to the Borden door.

[Harry]

The two mentions of the boy in the first thread above differ in one important detail. Lincoln has the boy delivering the note to the front door while Phillips has him delivering it to the side door.

Yes, sguthmann, I think the note story itself is a creation of Lizzie, simply to explain Abbie's absence. Obviously she didn't think the consequences of it through very well.

[doug65oh]

Well, let's see - the next question would logically be "If a note were delivered...?" Most of what - what I've read anyway to this point - suggests that the side door is a likely candidate, the north side door where Charlie Sawyer stood watchdog duty. My thinking is merely that if there was indeed a note, delivered by someone at least slightly familiar with either the habits of the household, or layout of the house, the side door would make the most sense.

How does that hypothesis stand against what we know about arrangement of the house?

[Kat]

Witness Statements
Pg. 2: Lizzie being questioned by John Fleet, Thurs., Aug. 4th, 1892 :
"A man came here this morning about nine o'clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away."

This was the closest to someone coming that morning that I ever found.
However, I noticed in the newspaper accounts, they don't always call it a *note* but rather refer to it as a *letter.*
Maybe you might find more using that to search?
Yet sguthmann has a point about this being while Andrew was there.

[Kat]

Here is what Phillips had to say on the subject:

"After the men had left the house, Mrs. Borden was called to the rear door by a boy who presented a note. Neither Lizzie nor Bridget saw her alive after that. Lizzie thought she had gone out, but events proved that she went to the guest-chamber where she was struck down by her assassin, who wielded some sharp instrument, presumably a hatchet or small axe, and inflicted eighteen deep gashes on her neck and head. Thirteen of them cut through her skull, and any one of them would have killed her. She crumpled on the floor between the bed and bureau, and apparently died without resistance. She must have turned her head toward her assailant as two of the blows were frontal. Lizzie’s attorneys believed that the note called for the delivery to the bearer of some article from Mr. Morse’s room;
Page 2
that the assailant followed Mrs. Borden into that room and that he afterwards regained possession of the note. It was never found. Of course the Government claimed that there was no boy and no note. Corroborative proof was lacking."--Phillips History of Fall River.
Also a download at:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... dBooks.htm
"The Borden Murder Mystery", 1946.

[Shelley]

$500 reward would have been a great incentive to come forward for most people-had they written the note, delivered it or been the sick person. I always thought the quick fabrication of the note came out of Lizzie when Andrew came in, because just perhaps Andrew was about to call up the front stairs to speak to Abby or even mount the stairs to go up to tell her he was home. He had to be stopped- and quick! As he had gone up to his own room and through the kitchen, sitting room and dining room, he knew Abby was in none of those places.

Bridget was vomitting in the back yard, just after 9, John was going out the side door about 8:45, then Bridget was walking back and forth to the barn and around the house outside from 9:15-10:15 and saw no boy delievering a note. I would almost bet a delivery of this sort would come to the front door. Family and tradesmen would use the side door. I wonder if Phebe Bowen was in the front window at this time looking for her daughter with a clear view of the front door? Yes, I agree, the note story does sound pretty thin.

[snokkums]

Assuming there was a note in the first place, it's delivery is a mystery in itself. The only source for the note is Lizzie and she says she neither seen the note nor the boy who delivered it. Other than this I can't seem to find anyone who saw the boy come to the front door. Lincoln (p70) has this:

"... But there is also impressive evidence that the note did come. In the first place, a young man was seen going to the front door at nine; it was briefly opened to him, but he did not go in."

She does not cite a source. Who was it that allegedly seen the boy? In lieu of not finding the boy himself this person would be able to offer important evidence in the case. Was he or she looked for? There doesn't appear to be much on this anywhere.


If Abby recieved it physically(which it what I am assuming), Lizzie wouldn't have seen who delivered it. Didn't Lizzie say that Abby told her she got the note? In that case maybe LIzzie would'nt have seen who delivered. Besides wasn't she in and out of the house that day, eating pears and looking for sinkers?

If the boy did exist, maybe he didn't want to get involved by coming forword after what had happened to Andrew and Abby. He might have been afraid that the killer would come for him.

Then there is this footnote in Pearson's 1937 Trial of Lizzie Borden, p35:

"(15) That "Mrs Borden was called to the rear door by a boy who presented a note" is asserted as if it were a proven fact by Arthur S. Phillips, Esq. (New Bedford Standard-Times, May 13, 1934.) Mr Phillips, who aided Mr Jennings in preparing the defence, adds that defence counsel "believed that the note called for the delivery to the bearer of some article from Mr Morse's room; that the assassin followed Mrs Borden into that room . . . " It is not clear whether this means that the boy was also the assassin, or if there were two in the plot. At all events, why Mrs Borden should have deceived Miss Lizzie as to the contents of the note, saying that it said "somebody was sick" (see Miss Borden's inquest statement), and where the "assassin" was standing during the conversation between the two women, are points which this theory does not reveal."

Here we have possibly two people coming to the door with again no source.

[Harry]

snokkums, you have apparently inserted your comments into my message when you quoted it. That makes it appear that it was part of my message.

Please type your comments after the [/quote]. That way they will be separate.

[Shelley]

I have also always been intrigued that Lizzie promptly comes out with the note story to Andrew that Abby had gone out. How did she know positively that Abby had not returned? Abby might have been in the fruit cellar, privy in the barn, wash room. etc. I have always believed Bridget's first statement that Lizzie was on the stairs coming down when her father came home. That being a given, it follows that Lizzie had been upstairs. Abby could have let herself in the front door with a key if she had really been out. Later Lizzie "hears" Abby come in when the police and others are there. I think it may have been more believable if when asked where Abby was, Lizzie had simple said, "I think she went out earlier and I don't know if she's come back yet". Of course then Andrew may have checked for her upstairs. . . .

[Yooper]

Even if we can substantiate the individual going to the door, we still don't necessarily have a note involved.

I'm of the opinion that the note story was fabricated by Lizzie to prevent Andrew from looking for Abby. Bridget overheard the conversation, so Lizzie was stuck with it.

Lizzie told Andrew that Abby had gone out, which implies Lizzie's direct knowledge that Abby had physically left the premises. Apparently she did not say she thought or assumed that Abby had left, this might not have prevented Andrew from looking for Abby, or sending Bridget to find her. Abby would have probably been recognized by someone on the street if she had gone on an errand, or someone of her description would have likely been seen. If there was a note, apparently Abby did not act on it.

With a reward involved, did the police have anyone try to falsely claim it?

[Shelley]

Abby being the one who did the shopping and who was in charge of the domestic (Bridget), one might also conjecture that IF Abby had gone out, she might have said as she passed by Bridget toiling outside, "I'll be back in time for the noon day meal preparations- I'm just heading off to see old Mrs. So-and So. By the bye- do we need butter?"-or something like that.

[Yooper]

If I remember correctly, there was testimony, possibly from Bridget, that Abby was in the habit of informing Bridget when she (Abby) had to leave the house. This makes pefect sense because Bridget was the one person most likely to be left at home "on duty" while others did errands.

[Yooper]

Note deliverers, intruders with bloody hatchets, Abby, all able to enter and leave the Borden premises unnoticed! Remarkable!

[theebmonique]

If there was indeed a note, is it possible that it was never really a written note, but a just verbal message ? Or maybe the message was written when it arrived, but that the deliverer took the physical note back and only left the message verbally ?





Tracy

[Yooper]

It is possible that "having a note" is a generic phrase referring to having been summoned, either verbally or in writing.

If Abby had few friends and acquaintances, who among them might have summoned Abby? Were they ever questioned directly about sending a note?

[Shelley]

Bridget seems to assume Abby is at the Whiteheads when she asks Lizzie after Andrew is found where the Whiteheads live and she would go.That sort of indicates to me that a note arriviing for Abby may have been an out-of -the -ordinary occurance and who but maybe Sarah Whitehead might have sent it? = Someone who knew them well enough to know they did not have a telephone of course, - which would seem to me to be someone who knew Abby well enough to come forward when she was found murdered.

If this person wanted Abby when she was sick (and probably it would have been a woman as a man sending for a woman if he were sick would have raised an eyebrow in 1892)-one would think that person would have cared enough about Abby dead to have longed to be of help in finding the killer or supporting Lizzie's story. Wouldn't it be rich if it WAS Sarah Whitehead who sent for Abby by note, then decided not to help Lizzie out by confirming she had written that note because she hated Lizzie! Just a thought......

[Yooper]

Good point, Shelley, a close friend or relative would very likely have testified to having summoned Abby. Off hand, I can't think of any reason they wouldn't.

[Kat]

In response to post at 9:51 AM, Lizzie said she did not say she heard Abbie come in. Others say she said it but Lizzie stood her ground on that one.

Inquest
Lizzie
78(35)
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed up stairs?
A. No, sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No, sir.
.....
83(40)
Q. Did you ask them to look up stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you suggest to anybody to search up stairs?
A. I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is;" that is all I said.
Q. You did not suggest that any search be made for her?
A. No sir.
Q. You did not make any yourself?
A. No sir.
Q. I want you to give me all that you did, by way of word or deed, to see whether your mother was dead or not, when you found your father was dead.
A. I did not do anything, except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her: "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look."
Q. You did ask her to look?
A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Where did you intend for her to look?
A. In Mrs. Borden's room.

[Harry]

Lizzie's "facts" were evolving as time went by. By the time of the Inquest she had had time to realize some of the holes in her statements.

I can't see how Lizzie can deny saying it at the Inquest. Was it not her statement that she thought she heard Abbie come in that caused Bridget and Mrs. Churchill to go upstairs?

If the "young boy" who allegedly came to the door was unknown or not well known to Abbie then more than likely he would carry a note. If he was known to her and old enough to convey the importance of the request then a note would not have necessarily been needed.

Yes, Shelley that would have been funny (not to Lizzie though) if it was Sarah Whitehead who sent the note. But she was off to the policeman's picnic at Rocky Point that morning.

There just doesn't seem to be any supporting evidence of a note.

No person who wrote it.
No person who delivered it.
No person who seen anybody deliver it.
No one found it later.

In addition we have Lizzie's total disinterest in asking Abbie who sent it. That to me, no matter how much Lizzie hated her, makes me seriously doubt there was a note. Were not Lizzie and Abbie talking pleasantly that morning?

[Shelley]

Bridget's witness statement always has a real ring of truth in it to me:

"When I returned from Miss Russell's I asked Lizzie if I would go to Mrs. Whitehead's to see if Mrs. Borden was there. It was then Lizzie said, no, I think I heard her come in."

Bridget overheard the note conversation and deduced, knowing Abby's limited circle of friends and family, it probably was Sarah Whitehead's house Abby must have headed for that morning. I think upon reflection, Lizzie later may have decided it wise not to recall saying anything about going to look for Mrs. Borden or deciding to change into her wrapper of her own volition- both could look bad for her.

[Yooper]

It's odd that Abby didn't offer the name of the sender when she told Lizzie about the note. If they were at odds at the time, why did Abby tell Lizzie anything? Why not tell Bridget about the note and sender?

Lizzie told both Mrs. Churchill and Bridget that she thought she heard Abby return. This was the second thing Lizzie said to Mrs. Churchill upon her arrival, and Bridget wasn't there at the time to overhear it. Two individuals on two separate occasions. This was the first response to questions about Abby and came immediately after the fact. Mrs. Churchill frets about having to "tell all" in the witness statements four days hence when she offers this information, knowing it will incriminate Lizzie. Bridget leaves the household for some reason. I think both Bridget and Mrs. Churchill simply did some elementary mathematics and realized that two and two does not equal seven. Lizzie didn't hear anyone arrive when she was in the barn.

[Yooper]

It has been brought up that Lizzie may have heard the murderer leaving rather than anyone arriving. She would have heard this just about the time she "discovered" Andrew. In order for this to be true, she must have heard the front door closing because she would have seen anyone at the side door. She would have the murderer's footprints up the front of her dress from the confined space of the rear hallway! The murderer would have had to close the door and manipulate all the locks from the outside(!). By the time all the attendant commotion of closing and locking the door was accomplished, assuming that is possible, there would be no doubt that the door had been used, and Lizzie would not have to "think" she heard anything.

Lizzie lied about hearing Abby return.

[Shelley]

That's always been my take on it too
The final clincher for me was the fact that anyone intimate enough with Abby to ask her to be at their sickbed would surely be concerned enough to come forward and fess up to the notewriting after. Unless this note-writing female really wanted Lizzie to squirm.

And if the note never existed, and was a fabricated lie to keep Andrew from going upstairs and buy some time - well, . . .

[Yooper]

Can you imagine a twelve(?) year old boy being disinterested in a reward? I can't!

[Shelley]

Well Robinson sure turned himself inside out in court to try to prove a note existed, didn't he? Damage control

And just another thought- although it is perfectly possible anything might have been popped into the woodstove and burnt- is it really likely that anyone would make a special trip to the kitchen, open the stove, just to burn up a note? You should see the pile of mail, flyers, junkmail,etc. sitting on my counter from a week's accumulation. What is more ordinary would be that it was casually left on the sitting room table, tossed aside somewhere. It is also usual for a home delivery person to wait for a response, and receive a few coins to deliver the answer. Where was Abby's response to the note? Something like "I have been so unwell myself just lately, I feel I may have to come on Friday " or something like that.

[Harry]

The problem for Lizzie is that she has NO alibi for the time of Abbie's death. She has a half-baked alibi for Andrew's, hardly believable, but at least something.

During the time of Abbie's killing she was somewhere downstairs, in the house ALONE. She doesn't even attempt to argue that.

To her father she has to explain Abbie's absence. To the police she has to account for Abbie missing and her not searching for her after stumbling upon her dead father.

She makes a huge mistake by referring to a note, a piece of physical evidence. A simple "she said she was going food shopping", which Abbie regularly did, may not have sufficed. She probably thought the food shopping would not account for the time so she needed to expand that time by including a sick visit.

[Shelley]

Yes, with Wade's and Hudner's so close, accounting for 9:15-11:05 was a stretch., especially in the days where you went in a store and the man at the counter got down all your needs for you, you put it on the tab and out the door you went. (I actually remember those glory days of service). Well, I don't think hatchet murdering is a premeditated thing- but rather a red-hot spontaneous crime of passion. After the fact , a killer must do some hasty treading, sometimes putting a foot wrong, to wiggle out of some sticky questioning.

I think I would have trotted right down to Sargent's after killing Abby, then waltzed in just about 12:30 when John would have come home and found the Bordens. Then I would have swooned into an hysterical faint and have had to be put to bed in something feminine and frilly, sobbing and wailing and clinging to Alice for all I was worth. Then I would have decked myself out in miles of black crape at that funeral and dropped and swooned like Sarah Bernhardt. Jennings should have coached her a little more in the art of feminine guile.

[Yooper]

Lizzie's first clue that her conversation with Andrew was overheard by Bridget was when Bridget offered to go to Mrs. Whitehead's to find Abby. While Lizzie told Mrs. Churchill that Abby had gone out and returned, she wasn't aware that anyone knew she had told Andrew that Abby had gone out. This severely limited the opportunity for Lizzie to hear Abby return.

[Yooper]

The problem for Lizzie is that she has NO alibi for the time of Abbie's death. She has a half-baked alibi for Andrew's, hardly believable, but at least something.

During the time of Abbie's killing she was somewhere downstairs, in the house ALONE. She doesn't even attempt to argue that.

To her father she has to explain Abbie's absence. To the police she has to account for Abbie missing and her not searching for her after stumbling upon her dead father.

She makes a huge mistake by referring to a note, a piece of physical evidence. A simple "she said she was going food shopping", which Abbie regularly did, may not have sufficed. She probably thought the food shopping would not account for the time so she needed to expand that time by including a sick visit.

You're right, Harry, she could have told Andrew about an errand which did not include a note. This would have been far simpler. However, Lizzie didn't know what route Andrew had taken on his morning rounds, he could have been anywhere. Lizzie had to tell Andrew that Abby had gone somewhere he was not likely to encounter her or see her on the street. I think it may well be that the assumption by all members of the household was that Abby went to Mrs. Whitehead's, if she had a note.

This would also imply that Lizzie was acutely aware of the situation and not the least bit agitated after having killed Abby.

[Shelley]

Someone could have asked Sarah if the usual way she communicated with her half-sister was by note. Surely if one of the close neighbors needed Abby, like Mrs. Buffinton, they would have just strolled over. Even though 4th street is not far off now, it was in 1892 because Spring Street did not go right through from Second. Too bad ole Andy was not on the phone line-that would have changed Lizzie's options drastically! She would have had to ring up the police as soon as she "found" her father.

[Yooper]

I don't think it ever crossed Lizzie's mind to send for the police. She was preoccupied with funeral arrangements.

[RayS]

Yes, with Wade's and Hudner's so close, accounting for 9:15-11:05 was a stretch., especially in the days where you went in a store and the man at the counter got down all your needs for you, you put it on the tab and out the door you went. (I actually remember those glory days of service). Well, I don't think hatchet murdering is a premeditated thing- but rather a red-hot spontaneous crime of passion. After the fact , a killer must do some hasty treading, sometimes putting a foot wrong, to wiggle out of some sticky questioning.

I think I would have trotted right down to Sargent's after killing Abby, then waltzed in just about 12:30 when John would have come home and found the Bordens. Then I would have swooned into an hysterical faint and have had to be put to bed in something feminine and frilly, sobbing and wailing and clinging to Alice for all I was worth. Then I would have decked myself out in miles of black crape at that funeral and dropped and swooned like Sarah Bernhardt. Jennings should have coached her a little more in the art of feminine guile.

What happens then to Andy, and what alibi would you have for the time of Abby's death?

[Shelley]

The alibi for Abby would have been I was out shopping, which I would have been doing as soon as I could after Abby's murder. No coroner can establish death to much certaintly to within more than an hour. As far as Andrew- I do not think he would have been murdered, because I have never believed he was the primary victim, just at the wrong place at the wrong time. But then, of course this is my opinion (and I might add that of a good many others who are familiar with the case.).

[RayS]

The alibi for Abby would have been I was out shopping, which I would have been doing as soon as I could after Abby's murder. No coroner can establish death to much certaintly to within more than an hour. As far as Andrew- I do not think he would have been murdered, because I have never believed he was the primary victim, just at the wrong place at the wrong time. But then, of course this is my opinion (and I might add that of a good many others who are familiar with the case.).

But why did the murderer hang around for 90 minutes if Abby was the target? I think the Secret Visitor was there to see Andy, and Andy knew of the Secret Visitor.
I've mentioned this before, it will be in Part 4.

Since Abby was last seen alive at 9:15 when Bridget went out, and she ate the same time as Andy, they were able to estimate the death. Just read the books that discuss this.

[Shelley]

Geez, Ray, I have voiced this opinion before on other threads. I am getting pre- Thanksgiving indigestion just going over it again. First, I have read the books , the primary sources and newspaper coverage- for 16 years now. Secondly, I said this was just MY opinion. I know you do not agree and that is fine. You are entitled to your point of view on this.

I think anyone looking to bump off Andrew would not have popped in at 9:15 to do so- that was the time when Andrew was usually at the barber, post office, etc. I think a hatchet killing is a spontaneous thing- not plannned. Abby was killed in a rage- clearly. One person fits the bill as suspect. One. Emma was away with an alibi. I think after Lizzie killed Abby- which in itself is a nerve-shaking experience, she had to think, clean up plan what to do, and recover from the experience. Heck, I am undone after killing a spider! I think she had changed into her downtown bengaline dress, planned to somehow slip out when Bridget was not near the front door observing the yard during her chores- and then- Andrew shows up as early as 10:35. As we do not know the precise moment Abby died, it could have been anywhere from 9:15- to as late as 10:15 when Bridget came in. Yes, that is a whole hour in which it may have happened. The stomach contents lean towards earlier, but every human being is quite different in regards to digestion. I asked Dr. Starrs this very question, he being a forensics expert- and he said it was a foolish man who would attempt to pinpoint time of death to the minute- generally an hour is as close as you will get, due to many, many variables of a person's metabolism and environmental factors.

When Andrew arrived home, I believe the scenario took a great swing in plans for the killer (Lizzie). Andrew had to die because he would have known Lizzie had been alone in the house all morning- and he, more than anyone knew how much the girls despised Abby. His was a murder of necessity. She did not plan to "hang out 90 minutes". Murder does not always go according to plan, and this one, I believe was not pre-meditated, - like poisoning. This is my view, and until I see some new evidence or proof, I am happy to stick with it.

[Yooper]

I agree, Shelley, the murderer "hung around" for 90 minutes because: a) she lived there, and b) she had to wait for Bridget to begin working inside the house to avoid being seen leaving at a particular time. Andrew came home a bit earlier than expected, or Bridget took longer working outdoors than anticipated, or both.

This plan would also leave Bridget as the immediate suspect. She had been asked to wash windows in spite of being ill.

[Shelley]

Yes, I think that gab session Bridget had with the Kelly maid lasted a good 15 minutes, with the work of window -washing running later than the usual amount of time it took at the task. On the plus side, it kept Bridget on the South side a good long time!

[Kat]

Since living at the house, Shell, have you checked to see how long it would take her, if the killing of Abbie was done by Lizzie in a rage, to stop whatever she was doing (arguing?) and leave whatever room they were in, go down to the cellar, get a hatchet, and come back upstairs, find Abbie- now maybe in another room, and approach her and attack her? Would Abbie have screamed when she saw the weapon? And this going and getting a weapon becomes premeditated, because however long it takes to get a hatchet, should give her time to consider her actions and reconsider her actions.

If it was momentary rage, why didn't she grab the nearest thing at hand?
I'm not saying Abbie was not killed in a rage, but I think for a hatchet to be handy, there must be premeditation.

[Shelley]

Yes, that is an excellent point, and one I have tried to work out for a long time. I can see a hatchet being in the kitchen, maybe near the kindling box or something like that, but quite right- what was there upstairs in a bedroom since none of the fireplaces were used? So, either the weapon was something sharp, like a hatchet which might have been upstairs, or she had to go get one either in the kitchen or cellar.

As far as timing from the guest room to the kitchen, it all depends on how agile, how angry and how motivated you are getting up and down those stairs. I have bad knees so it took me 30 seconds just to get down the stairs! From the head of the sofa to the front door is 10 steps, from the sofa head to the back stairs, 20 steps. So for me to get from the landing upstairs to the top of the cellar stairs for me is about a minute. Then, down and up the cellar stairs, to the tool room in the front along Second St., I'd say another minute and a half, then retracing upstairs again to the guestroom, -yes, 3-3 1/2 minutes is a fair guess all in all.I will time it again tomorrow.(I've been taking glucosamine so maybe I am more peppy on stairs now).

I agree, during that time one could change the course of action, cool off, etc. It is a pretty pickle to solve. We know that Lizzie went down the cellar, came up, and then went upstairs with a pile of clean clothing, sat down and mended a tape on a sleeve. The hatchet could have been collected then and secreted in that pile of clothing.

Abby was in the front bedroom. I am thinking maybe an argument began between Abby and Lizzie right after her father left, and when she went downstairs and picked up the clothing she took the hatchet in the chopping block then-maybe with the intend to frighten Abby. The other possibility is that there was something upstairs already- is it possible there might have been something in camping gear or fishing equipment which may have been in her dress closet, bedroom, or in Emma's closet which might have been going to Marion with her on Monday? If there had been you can be sure that would have been hidden in the cellar later.

Am thinking out loud here, and it is a sticky wicket to be sure!

[Smudgeman]

I think Lizzie was plotting and planning the days before the murders, and had her poisons and weapons in hand so to speak. She was waiting for the right opportunity to go after Abby, when they were alone in the house. If she had a weapon in the cellar and in her room, she had 2 different places available to retrieve them when the moment was right. Or if she did it on the spur of the moment, she could have grabbed the first weapon she could find, fireplace poker, flat iron, ice pick, kitchen utensil, hammer, etc.. I have always thought that maybe she had the weapon with the pile of clothes she took upstairs. I think she and Abby had an argument, and thats when she decided to kill. I do think it was premeditated.

[Kat]

In Lizzie's inquest testimony 83(40) I pointed out that Lizzie says she did not tell anyone she thought she heard Mrs. Borden come in:
A. I did not do anything, except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her: "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look."
Q. You did ask her to look?
A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Where did you intend for her to look?
A. In Mrs. Borden's room.

This was countered with Yooper's statements:

Lizzie told both Mrs. Churchill and Bridget that she thought she heard Abby return. This was the second thing Lizzie said to Mrs. Churchill upon her arrival, and Bridget wasn't there at the time to overhear it. Two individuals on two separate occasions. This was the first response to questions about Abby and came immediately after the fact. Mrs. Churchill frets about having to "tell all" in the witness statements four days hence when she offers this information, knowing it will incriminate Lizzie.

and also he claims:

Lizzie lied about hearing Abby return.

I did more digging in The Witness Statements to find out when Mrs. Churchill and/or Bridget claimed that Lizzie said she thought she heard Mrs. Borden come in. I checked the Statements, not because I place full faith in these, but rather because they were referred to by Yooper and also they are technically the first statements. But they are not under oath, and they were taken down (and written) rather casually and haphazardly, which people find out who have studied their origins.

I find that Mrs. Churchill first mentions that she heard Lizzie say "I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in" in The Second Interview done by Harrington/Doherty, Monday August 8. (W.S. 11).
When I looked for Bridget's first statement made to this same effect, I find it is October 1st. (W.S. 22). We don't have Bridget's inquest testimony so we can't count that.

Also, Mrs. Churchill was spoken to by Harrington/Doherty on what looks like the 6th, Saturday (W.S. 9) where that statement was not made.

This shows that there are faults in the statements, probably gaps as well, and plenty of time for witnesses to compare notes, be influenced by counsel or cop, handwriting had to be deciphered and cops did compose some of their notes just before Knowlton came to town on Monday night before the inquest as they were required to turn in their notes then.

So I still stand with Lizzie on this, because stating she lied outright on this statement of hers firstly cannot be proven, and secondly I think might have been misrepresented by Churchill and Sullivan, and also here in postings. It is not something I dismiss as lightly as others have done.

It was also asked what then propelled Churchill and Sullivan to go upstairs to look for Mrs. Borden and I think Lizzie's statement under oath of:
"I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look" might be enough.

[Kat]

I will time it again tomorrow.(I've been taking glucosamine so maybe I am more peppy on stairs now).

--Shelley


You crack me up Shell!

[Kat]

Did Masterton write that the little George Whitehead was possibly the one to bring a note?