Second Street Tidbits

[Shelley]

Oh I am sure there will be one.

It is, in the end- just a theory born of many hundreds of hours sitting on that black sofa, imagining what I would do if I were Lizzie under the same circumstances.. I do believe we ought to pay a lot of attention to what ALL the women in this case said, or were afraid to say, as I do believe this was a crime about women, by women, and for reasons women clearly understand.

And it does not depend upon a nameless midwife, a vanishing mother, a mysterious unrecorded birth, secret documents, and smells. ( put the hatchet down Ray- this is meant good-naturedly).

[Oscar]

I just rented and watched the film "Wisconsin Death Trip" and I thought that Fall River had problems in the 1890's...

[Kat]

Yes, Shelley is a very good writer! You can read her in the August issue of The Hatchet!

Emma as poisoner, I'm sorry to say, makes more sense to me than Lizzie. I've usually thought so.
If she was slowly poisoning the Bordens she would put it in something Bridget would not eat, most probably.
Bridget seemed to have her likes and dislikes.
Also, it may not have been intended to kill.
It could have been intended to cause suffering, tho.
Usually a poisoner likes to watch or be informed in some way of the effects, so it might be possible that Lizzie's letters to Emma cataloged these effects. That kind of letter would have to be destroyed.

[Shelley]

There's also the possibility that like the daylight burglary of Abby's things- poisoning was meant to frighten, not kill. I was studying another New England case where the poisoner made sure everyone got a little, and 5 died, 15 were ill. The poisoner faked being ill, thus removing all suspicion from himself.

We only had Lizzie's word for it that she was ill. She also said she never left the house Wednesday during the day- although a few guys down at Smith's had something different to report on that count!

I think it would be a mistake to overlook old Emma, who I have always regarded as a somewhat humorless, tough and cool customer.

[shakiboo]

Emma does seem to be the one most likely to actually do something, she held everything inside, where Lizzie voiced her opinions and made her displeasure known. Emma also would have had a great influence on Lizzie and how she felt about Abby. Lizzie was still practically a baby when her real mother died, someone would have had to be putting ideas in her head, Abby should have been able to become her mother. So it makes you wonder why that didn't happen, and also if Abby had tried to form a bond with her. She (Lizzie) does appear to have formed a bond with her father, where Emma who was still just a child is just completely left out in the cold....left to mourn and become a bitter hateful cold woman. Appearing quiet and timid on the outside but cold and filled with rage on the inside.

[Kat]

Imagine the power someone like Emma would feel to slowly poison the elder Bordens.
Not even to kill- as I say- just to have some suffering. To withdraw it, watch them recover- then start again and watch or hear about their illnesses. It would be so addictive to have that kind of power, after not ever having any.
Think of a kind of illness caused which would give Abbie loose bowels and nausea. Think about her trying to get to a chamber pot on time. It would be nasty and an embarrassing thing for her to endure.
Neither could travel under such constraints.

[Ms. Jo]

If you look at all the home remedies that were available at that time. ie: the mail order catalogs where you could purchase elixers, cough medicines & other cure-all drugs, that had ingredients that you can only get by prescription these days...It would be very easy to use poison...Poison is a popular method of murder by the female species...but there are those few , who in a pinch, will improvise.
Shelly,your description of events are so vivid.& easily plausable! ..I can see it happening, in my mind, as your "vision of what could have happend unfolded.You should maybe write a book?

[Shelley]

Oh, I think the best books are already out there. It would be hard to beat Victoria Lincoln, Angela Carter, and for facts- Len Rebello. I expect the only thing I can offer is a good grip on the Victorian era and mindset, common sense, feminine intuition, and many, many hours alone in that house. But I am honored to think you think I have something to add to the old story!

I could write a humdinger on the GUESTS who have stayed though!

[shakiboo]

Shelley,You should do it!! That would be interesting and insightful! And probably funny at times too! You could add some of your great pictures too!! I for one have never been to Fall River or 92nd street, and just can't seem to get enough of the pictures.....It makes it so much more graphic to actually see where Lizzie was in the kitchen or where Mrs. Churchill and Bridget spotted Abby's body from the stairs!!! Really brings it alive, thanks so much!!!

[Angel]

I could write a humdinger on the GUESTS who have stayed though!

That is what would worry me about staying at that house. Shelley, have you had many guests there that have caused you some concern?

[Shelley]

Concern? Oh, no- just unusual types of people from all walks of life-endlessly entertaining. Actually I have never had a more interesting group of people and I end up having the best time of all every single weekend. Lizzielore crosses all lines of age, occupation, geographic location, education, -just everything. Discussions go on into the night on every topic from whodunnit to Victorian plumbing.

Priests, police, Goths, Wiccans, Ghosthunters, teachers, hearse drivers, profilers, psychiatric nurses, teenagers, 10 year -olds (and once by chance an infant of 10 months)donut makers, country guitarists, would-be novelists, local folks raised on Lizziedom, Victoriana buffs, interior decorators, honeymooners, Renaissance re-enactors, sweethearts hoping to be scared to death, - you name it! And they all have a theory and a story to tell. That old sitting room never enjoyed such animated conversation and goodwill before! Some nights when the weather is clear, we have a little tour of the city, reliving the Past, having a look at places of importance in the story, and once in a great while, a moonlight trip to the cemetery.

Some want to watch documentaries on the DVD player in the parlor, some want to talk Lizzie non-stop from the 4 o'clock check -in until 2 or 3 in the morning. Some never go to bed at all. But a great time is had by all, whatever their reason to be drawn to the house and story. At my age, I believe if possible, one should live what you love. I work as a church secretary all week, and with Fall River on the weekends, I consider myself lucky to be able to do just that at both jobs.

[Shelley]

Here is one funny tale since the season is upon us. One night , on tour with about 12 guests, we were down in the creepy old cellar. I agree Kat- this IS the goosebumpy area of the house. Katherine Ramsland had high adventures down there in her book about ghosts.

I was just telling them all about the voice activated tape recorder and how otherworldly voices drifted through the ether on Katherine's tape as a guest snapped a flash photo. Suddenly we ALL clearly heard "ABBY ABBY!" in a deep Karloffian voice. We froze like deer in the headlights, then bolted (2 men 10 women) pellmell up those treacherous steps to the kitchen. Once "safe", we huddled around the stove. "Did YOU hear that??" we all queried anxiously. One faint-hearted guest started to snivel and weep "George, we're going HOME!"-and fled into the little bathroom trembling.

The two macho men, their manly dignity at stake, decided to descend into the cellar once more and investigate. Honestly, I was rather cowered and bug-eyed myself back in the corner by the stove, wondering if I had finally witnessed paranormal disturbances and thinking how on earth was I to keep this woman from fleeing.

For several anxious moments- silence. The clock chimed on the sitting room mantel. We all held our collective breath. Then we heard a giggle from the cellar, then a belly laugh. George and his Real Man friend strutted into the kitchen holding a large black Halloween candy bowl aloft. "Here's your ghost you bunch of sissies!". With a flick of a button the bowl came to life, and the flesh-like hand in the center, destined to close down upon Trick or Treaters, growled "Happy Halloween!". For a minute we were dumbstruck. Apparently the towels which were on top of the bowl downstairs had muffled the "Happy" part and all we could make out was "'Appy"- which DOES rather sound like "Abby" to a suggestible mind. The flash photo had set off the motion trigger as the switch had been left on- and so we all felt rather foolish, relieved- and I believe one or two may have had a change of undies. Yes, life is always colorful at #92.

Then there was that January morning when Dave burned the jonnycakes and the F.R. fire marshal stormed through the front door with a fire axe. . .

[bobarth]

Shelley,

Oh please write the book, would love to read about all the experiences in the "House"
I enjoy your pictures and stories so much!!!!

[Susan]

Great story, Shelley, thanks for sharing!

[Kat]

You're an absolute natural storyteller, Shelley, and they are lucky to have you there!

[Kat]

Actually, I just have seemed to gravitate to the Borden cellar- but it doesn't seem creepy to me.
Of course, I wasn't closed in there with the light off like Tracy, either!

[theebmonique]

Oh my gosh...that was a bit unnerving for a minute. But, I knew if I tried to run for the stairs in the dark, I would probably trip and fall...so I waited for my eyes to adjust and I walked up the stairs. The 'scary' disapated quicker than I would have thought it would...at first. It was as if I didn't have time to be scared.

The best part was the "holy sh**!' look on Eleanor's face when I popped through the door and stepped into the kitchen. Then I got scared again as it hit me...I WAS IN THE BORDEN CELLAR...ALONE...IN THE DARK !!!

I wouldn't trade the experience though.





Tracy...

[Shelley]

I doubt people would buy a whole bookful of these anecdotes, but maybe a sampling of the best ones could be a Hatchet article
Fact is always stranger than fiction!

[Shelley]

As to cellars being creepy- Len says the floor would have been compressed dirt, and the thick granite foundation was always a little clammy. All those little chopped up rooms down there and the fruit cellar full of barrels and crocks- spiders and cobwebs and that pail of bloody water -ugh. I imagine it must have smelled of sawdust with all that chopped wood stored down there, and been quite dark. Bridget's big black laundry cauldron over the wood fire smelling of ash and strong lye soap and starch added its own perfume, along with the smell of kerosene lamp oil, molding potatoes and onions and soiled clothes. The tub full of clothing reeking with blood on the night of the murder must have contributed that awful metallic smell. Yes, I would not liked to have been alone down there. Even today, cut off from the familiar street noises, with the cellar so little changed from 1892, it is a place full of secrets and possibilities!

[Angel]

Would it have been possible to bury the axe in the dirt floor of the cellar?
To camouflage the place where the dirt would look different maybe a trunk or something could have been placed over the spot. Or, could there have been a roughly constructed area in the wood sides of the wall where a movable piece have been pushed aside and then replaced to throw in the weapon? I'm sure they didn't go over every inch of the walls. Having lived there, Lizzie could have been aware of any little crevice or area where something could have been slipped in between the walls.

[Shelley]

A crevice or secret hidey-hole known only to someone who lived there is a good theory. There is something secretive about that cellar to be sure. It is a reasonable proposition-and would buy some time until the thing could be properly disposed of. The weapon had to have been either carried away stealthily somehow in the confusion by someone who was beyond reproach, or hidden to be sure! I remember being excited about the piano being considered as a possibility as a hideyhole! Once I thought what a great thing for it to have been, at the last minute slipped into that box of clothing buried behind the barn-but of course that got dug up!

[Shelley]

The Morse Society reunion was held this weekend and a busload of 40 "Morses" visited the house at 10:30 Saturday morning. Ed "Mr. Lizzie" Thibault does our bus tours, and Dee was pressed into tour service for such a crowd as I learned to operate the cash register in the gift shop. We were most interested in the "Anthony (as in Sarah Anthony Morse) Morses" group and I had a wonderful story from the clan geneaologist that the Morses had tried Illinois, but ended up in Reingold Iowa. Apparently horse trading ran in the family as the daughter of Clarence Morse told me her grandaddy John and others of that branch had been crackerjack horse and livestock trader for several generations. They really loved seeing Uncle John's photo upstairs and I was able to tell them about Vinnicum and Anthony roads over in Swansea. You never know who you may meet.

[Shelley]

Today marked the last of this year's Red Hat Ladies' Tea parties at the house with 16 ladies sitting down to thin sandwiches and scones. Emma would approve. The various chapters have had such a good time at #92, word has gotten about in the Society.

A small red hat was left at Lizzie's grave as the officers made Miss Lizzie an official "red hatter". For the uninitiated, a red hatter is a woman over 50 who vows to adopt a joyous attitude to spending and socializing, shopping and sucking the nectar out of life!
http://www.redhatsociety.com/

[RayS]

Oh I am sure there will be one.

It is, in the end- just a theory born of many hundreds of hours sitting on that black sofa, imagining what I would do if I were Lizzie under the same circumstances.. I do believe we ought to pay a lot of attention to what ALL the women in this case said, or were afraid to say, as I do believe this was a crime about women, by women, and for reasons women clearly understand.

And it does not depend upon a nameless midwife, a vanishing mother, a mysterious unrecorded birth, secret documents, and smells. ( put the hatchet down Ray- this is meant good-naturedly).

Surely you jest? I am a peaceful man. I am not one of those guys who use a silenced .22 to eliminate witnesses. (Like the one carried by Gary Powers on his U-2 flight. Remember?)

My contribution (Proof for Browns' Theory - Parts 1 & 2) is based solely on the secondary works available to me, plus the True Crime stories.

If you have an objection, please post it where I can easily find it.
Thank you.

[RayS]

Thanks for the pictures!

I think it's a question to be considered, but I agree with Shelley- and I see Lizzie at least- as a kind of tom-boy. I suppose because she liked to fish and *camp*- although I think the *camping* done at Dr. Handy's cottage was more like sleeping all in one room?

Would that be a "slumber party"?

[RayS]

Great ideas Shelley. Your writing is very good and descriptive. I'm not sure what to respond with. It' all sounds possible. I'll wait for Ray S's response...

This belongs in a separate thread under "Lizzie Borden".

[RayS]

Picture a 64 year old, not physically fit, heavy woman, totally unaware of what was about to happen. Then, picture a figure familiar to the victim with a concealed weapon entering the room, continuing a heated disagreement begun downstairs moments before.

Then quite unexpectedly (on the part of the victim), a blow is struck to the left side of the head, stunning the aged woman. There is no exit- too stunned to crawl across the bed to flee out the only door to escape, the old lady gasps to make sense of what was happening. . Staggering and collapsing to the floor, the vigorous young assailant continues the onslaught without missing a beat- pushing the hapless old lady down and pinning her flat on her face as a rain of blows continue from the relentless weapon slicing through the air.

At last, rage spent, the killer- breathless with pulse pounding, sits back and observes the work. Surprisingly an inner peace rises within the murderer at the removal of the hated object-at long last. Standing up, surveying the carnage on the floor, the killer regains breath and composure, thinking what to do next. There are splatters of blood on the killer's garment necessitating a change of clothing -there is plenty of time to walk the few steps to the clothing closet, remove and hide the incriminating garment, wash one's hands, smooth every hair into place, conceal the instrument of death.

Sitting down by the stove, soothingly rocking gently, the killer wonders if this had all been a dream- was it imagined, -someone else must have done it. In the safe warm familiarity of the kitchen with the smell of coffee and cookies, -all the reassuring sounds and smells of every day life, surely the killer was safe here. Nobody would believe such a deed could be done by anyone but an intruder- a man- a maniac- an enemy. Stick to what was simple and familiar, and plan a way to destroy the garment at the first opportunity. Let someone else discover the horror upstairs.

That's my take on it Oscar!

I rate this as very poor detective work. You are creating a conclusion, then picking the facts to support it. Its supposed to be the other way around. IMO

[RayS]

Yes, I imagine after the initial realization of the deed had sunk in, then came the deliberate calculating on what to do next. I do not believe anyone premediates a hatchet killing calmly beforehand. That was spontaneous, and some fast peddling had to come after to cover the tracks. I see Lizzie checking the clock, making certain of Bridget's whereabouts, -then the cunning begins.

Thinking like the killer-maybe it goes something like this, : It would be best not to be in the house when the body is discovered. Where to say I have been? Everyone knows I like shopping, like going to the stores. And there is a sale today.....I should change to go out, get my downtown dress on, hat and gloves. Arrange to slip out when Bridget is not observing- that way she will never know when I left the house. Father will come home and find her upstairs and think it was a burglary or some enemy looking for him and being discovered by Mrs. B.

Coming down the front stairs in order to slip out the front, then lock the door behind me.... suddenly a knock and Bridget runs to the front door. Too late! Father is home, and the gig is up. How to keep him from looking for Abby? A note has arrived and she is out. Buying time to figure out what to do next-but not much time. Soon John will be back, Father will be looking for dinner. Father will KNOW. If he finds Abby he will KNOW who has been inside all morning with her. . I probably will not hang, but be put away for life in Taunton asylum as criminally insane. Father must die- regretful, but there it is. Trying to get Bridget to go downtown to that sale which would have been my alibi fails, but she is only too willing to go lie down a while- not long.

Death comes with lightening speed to Andrew as soon as the coast is clear. Blissfully unaware of what is to happen, he is defenseless with eyes closed. This time the killer is wise enough to cover her clothing. Like a cornered rat the killer strikes again- this time it is self preservation. Peeling off the victim's coat, and returning it to the arm of the sofa, the killer sinks down on the diningroom lounge a moment, as the blood seeps into the black jacket near the battered head. Trembling and shaken, the murderer, goes to the sinkroom in the kitchen where her father had brushed his teeth just that morning. She smooths a damp strand of hair into place, washes and dries her hands. After regaining her composure she steps two paces to the back stairs and calls down for Bridget.

While Bridget is gone for the doctor, Lizzie, carrying the now-washed murder weapon, slips down the cellar and conceals the weapon in the pail of soaking napkins in the washroom. It takes but a moment-then she returns to the doorway where she is spotted by Mrs. Churchill.

So there's that possibility. Now here's another corker. Just suppose Emma had been quietly poisoning the old folks all along, goes away, thinking Lizzie was still going to be away another week when the fatal dose would have been consumed=they both would have been gone from the house some time . Did Abby and Andrew take any medications daily? Was the medicine chest examined, castor oil, patent tonics? Then, Abby blabs to Dr. Bowen about poison, Lizzie panics and thinks she and Emma will be exposed-and takes matters into her own swift and sure hands! I don't much buy into that incest scenario, but Emma was just the right age and personality for a victim- more so than Lizzie, when their real mother died.

So many possibilities.

I rate this as very poor detective work. You are creating a conclusion, then picking the facts to support it. Its supposed to be the other way around. IMO
It belongs in its own thread under "Lizzie Borden". I never found it until today.

[Shelley]

Well it hardly goes under Second Street Tidbits either.

" then picking the facts to support it." Wow- is that ever the pot calling the kettle black.

[bobarth]

Shelley, love your stories (Now where is that hands clapping icon?).

What amazes me is how you get in their heads to tell the story. STELLAR!!!!! Just Stellar!!!!

[RayS]

Well it hardly goes under Second Street Tidbits either.

" then picking the facts to support it." Wow- is that ever the pot calling the kettle black.

Thank you for your kind regards. Telling me we are at the same level can't really be an insult, is it?
I don't pick the facts. I just read the books (starting w/ Brown's book in 1997) and figured things out based on my general knowledge.
The FIRST book I read was the reprint of Edward Pearson of 1964, with the addition of Gerald Gross's attempt to reconcile Pearson and Radin. "Lizzie did Abby while Bridget was outside, then Bridget did Andy while Lizzie was outside" went his argument. OK if you know little about the case and the people involved. Does anyone believe this today?

If you recompose your ideas and post them under the LAB thread, others may read them. I have my own solution, based on Brown's book. It is consistent with the facts, and doesn't depend on a magic solution of hiding the bloody clothes and hatchet(s).

My main complaint is that your description was heavy on emotion. This implies some sudden rage that somehow never showed before or after, like Vicky Lincoln's theory of epilepsy.

I thought your posted pictures of the FR area were something never done before, and done very well. For what its worth.

[Shelley]

It was a spring-like weekend in Fall River after the Thanksgiving Day deluge. There was a jolly crew of guests last night - eleven to be exact. The usual one and a half hour tour went to 2 1/2 hours as guests came up with a few new ideas on how to accomplish the grisly deed. One young man (30-something) thought perhaps the killer had one knee in Abby's back and one foot on the floor. His wife, who was the Abby du jour, thought he was getting a little "too much" into his role.

This morning I took down the autumnal display, Lee Ann is looking up pumpkin recipes! Poinsettias went up in the front hall, and decorating in earnest will begin next Friday with some talk of trying some new furniture arrangements in the parlor. We are now seeking a nice old upright piano which we can play. Lee Ann has quite a collection of 1890's music. The current instrument has never worked and is actually a pump organ -can't recall if it may be called a melodian.

Plans are afoot for an open house on the 18th in conjunction with the Preservation Society which is featuring an open house on the Hill and of course the annual FRHS Brayton house mansion open house the same day. http://www.lizzieborden.org/victorian.htm Busy times....

Today LeeAnn and I were toddling down Spring Street to have a peek at the Cook Borden house when we stopped at a yard sale near the old Whitehead house. The gals selling stuff lived next door and were chatty and friendly. We found some things to buy! Then the lady who owns the Whitehead house came out and we were introduced. She had no idea of the history of her home, and boy, was I thrilled to tell her of the wedding reception and the story of
"The House Which Caused the Big Trouble". She was wide-eyed at the end, and I am sure the rest of the family heard all about it later. Haunted houses must be in fashion because she said her attic had a hassock which her great uncle used to sit upon which "moves" constantly from window to window in the attic. All her grandfather's furniture is still up there too- he once owned all three houses , the Whitehead house and the one on each side. The big green house on the corner was once a rooming house- not surprising as it was so large. She promised to come visit at #92 soon. When I told her about iher house originally being a 2=family, she exclaimed, "Oh, then that explains that funny door!". Her bedroom downstairs was once used as the room for "laying out" the deceased for wakes she said- and was sorry her grandfather told her. Currently the second floor is let to a tenant. The house just west of the Whitehead's was just sold and we met that owner too- a very warm and chatty gal who enjoyed hearing the history. Not to be outdone, she said HER house was also haunted. Love it!

Stop the Press! Big News!The hideous bus station across the street is coming down in 2 weeks. The mailbox was moved in readiness this week. Can't wait to see the end of this eyesore.

[Oscar]

Good story about the Whitehead house and great news about the bus station Shelley!

I had forgotten about this thread!

O. Wilde

[Shelley]

Oh, probably my fault you have forgotten it Wilde Oscar - I had not posted anything for so long, and often tidbits get posted under The House thread or elsewhere. We are entering the tourist and guest slow season now, so I am not sure how many "tidbits" there will be during the Dead of Winter- but there are some ideas afoot for winter projects.

[Oscar]

Actually, there used to be a great restaurant in Toronto called Wilde Oscar's in tributed to Mr. Wilde of course

I wonder if Lizzie ever read The Picture of Dorian Gray?

[Harry]

Thank you, Shelley, for the good news on the bus terminal. It certainly didn't add anything to the area.

Now if they would only straighten out Second Street so it runs down to the Academy building again.

[snokkums]

This my my maiden post for the forum. Just wanted to share an interesting bit from a guest who stayed at the Second Street house last week. I have been an innkeeper there for 8 years. From time to time we have relatives of the Bordens (all distant!!) or family of those connected to the case. This lady was a Fall River gal of about 66 years who claimed some relation to the McGinn family.. She told me a delightful story of how her father mentioned being a little boy in the city and would from time to time pass 306 French St. Miss Borden would give out little peppermint patties (chocolate covered mints) to youngsters. I like to think of that!

On the day of the re-enactments, a relative of the Cook Borden branch of the family stayed in the Abby and Andrew room, as she does every year on August 4th. The old Cook Borden mansion on Fourth St.- just across from the famous Whitehead house of Oliver Gray, is being restored and is freshly painted. I believe it is now a residence for elderly gentlemen. We have been assured that the silver tea service at the Second Street home is from the Cook Borden family. So, it's nice to have all those connections.

Thats so cool. I always wanted to know what everything costs back then.