When Emma got home

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:11 pm

Do we know who broke the news to Emma of the murders?

We don't know exactly what Bowen said in his telegram to her but certainly he wouldn't have told her the real reason she was being asked to return.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:33 pm

Thats a good question, Harry! I wonder if someone picked Emma up at the train station or she had to hire a cab to get home herself? I would imagine at the time she arrived that Alice Russell was there, Lizzie, Bridget and John Morse. Hmmm, possibly Dr. Bowen and I'm sure there were quite a few police officers around at the time, but, who gave her the bad news?

From Emma's Inquest testimony (What there is of it, wish she hadn't been sick and they could have asked her all the other questions they had for her, we might know more!)

Emma is being asked about Bridget:

Q. She did not serve as a stand up waiter, stand behind the party. When you got home, was she at home?
A. Thursday night, yes sir.

Q. What did she tell you about it?
A. She did not tell me anything. I don't remember asking her but one question, two questions.

Q. What was that, please?
A. I asked her if she would stay with us.

So, that leaves Bridget out. Then Emma is questioned about Lizzie:

Q. Did you see your sister then when you came home?
A. Yes sir.

Q. What did she say about it?
A. I don't know, there was so much going on.

So, Lizzie may have filled in the gaps later, but, someone must have told Emma something when she came in. The bodies had been partially autopsied and were still in the house, she would have seen something was amiss walking through the sitting room. Hmmm.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:33 pm

When did Emma arrive? Between 5 and 6 p.m.?
I think Bowen was home at his dinner.
I think whoever picked her up at the train told her.
Probably the police?

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:32 pm

This is an interesting question. Surely Alice or Adelaide would have gone along to the station to break the news. I can't imagine Lizzie going out so soon after, but I don't think the officers would have wanted to take on the job. What do the rest of you think?

--Lyddie

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:51 pm

I found this in Kent, p28:

"Miss Emma Borden, who had been visiting in Fairhaven, returned home Thursday evening, having been summoned by the news of the crime. The details of the murder had not been told to her, and she was overcome by the recital."

Sullivan has this on page 24: "Emma would arrive back, summoned by a telegram announcing the deaths of her father and stepmother, the evening of 4 August. "

So it looks like she may have been aware of the deaths but not necessarily the murders.

l

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:49 pm

Bowen didn't know about Abby being dead when he sent the telegram. Lizzie supposedly told him to word it delicately so as not to shock the elderly woman in Fairhaven (maybe merely something like: "Emergency at home"). So, my guess would be she heard once in Fall River. I think Mrs Churchill went home for lunch & never came back, so I don't think she could have helped break the news.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:26 am

I was thinking at first that maybe Alice Russell was a good choice to tell about the murders as she was a good friend of Emma's. But, on second thought, she seems to be so reticent about talking about certain things, look how long it took her to mention the dress burning, plus she wasn't one for remembering things. And, apparently from her Inquest testimony, she didn't even know the Bordens had been murdered until John Morse said something about it to her and Lizzie!

Q. When did you first learn that they were murdered?
A. I got Lizzie into the dining room, on to the dining room lounge, and we were there, I don't know how long, when her Uncle came in.

Q. That is Morse?
A. Yes Sir. And something he said about their being murdered, and looked up to her, then it dawned on my mind that it was cold blooded murder. That is the first idea that I had that it was murder.

Alice is never directly asked if she said anything to Emma, but, she was definitely there when Emma got home.

Q. Had Emma got there before you went home?
A. O, yes.

Q. Who did you leave Miss Lizzie with?
A. Who do you mean in the house?

Q. She remained in her room, as I understand you?
A. Yes Sir. I don't know who I left her with, but I think Mrs. Holmes and Emma.

So now we have another character thrown into the mix of possible people to tell Emma the news.

The questioning goes on:

Q. At any time did you have any talk with the servant girl, that you recollect?
A. I don't remember of ever saying a word to her.

Q. Or of hearing her say anything?
A. No Sir, I did not hear Maggie talk much, and I have not at any other time.

Q. Did you hear Mr. Morse say anything about it at any time that day?
A. I don't remember of anything; there might have been general talk; I don't remember of anything.

I was thinking John Morse would have been a good bet as the one to tell Emma, he was family, he was a man and may have been told more by the police about it. But, Alice doesn't seem to recall him talking much about it. That would leave the police.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:04 am

Tina-Kate @ Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:49 am wrote:Bowen didn't know about Abby being dead when he sent the telegram.

Good point Tina-Kate. That would make it a lot easier for Bowen.

At the trial (p-330) Dr Bowen said he went back to the telegraph office to get a copy - "I went to the telegraph office and got a copy of the telegram that I sent, at the examination in the station house, with State Detective Seaver."

So we know that the police knew it's contents. Wouldn't it be interesting to read what Bowen had actually said in that telegram.

Spiering (p-127) has a comment that invites discussion: "Lizzie's immediate desire that the telegram be sent to Emma, prior to the discovery of Abby's body, was significant. It bolstered the defense's contention that Lizzie had no knowledge that Abby had also been murdered."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:15 pm

In those days I'd think the police would want a woman with them when/if they picked up Emma at the train.
They certainly wouldn't leave this job to just anyone- meaning the meeting of the train was probably supervised.
Mrs. Brigham was around a lot, and thereafter came every day I believe? She would be a good choice to chaperone the pick-up of Emma- She *chaperoned* Lizzie's trips to the Inquest.

(She had even been into the girls dress closet many times. I think she was very familiar with the girls.)

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:29 am

very interesting detail i had not thought about.

i suppose the way this is handled in the movie -- that emma arrives, basically knowing what has happened and is asked to "verify" the bodies -- this is basically a fiction -- or somehow implied by one of the authors?

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:55 pm

Emma had to get from the Delano house in Fairhaven to the New Bedford train station. This was done either in a rented rig or perhaps there was a carriage at the house. In either case, she didn't drive herself to New Bedford alone.

Then, she took the train--the long way--from New Bedford all the way to Weir Junction in Taunton then back into Fall River from the north. Would she have taken the train alone? Was this done by a single woman in 1892?

Certainly women would ride the street cars alone for short distances in town, for shopping, etc. But would a woman take a train unaccompanied? Even the relatively short distance from New Bedford to Fall River?

If not, who would her companion have been?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:29 am

Oh, you're right! She wouldn't travel alone.
Maybe the house she stayed in gave her a servant to travel with her.

When Emma and Lizzie left town the 21st, and Lizzie got off at New Bedford, did that leave Emma to travel on alone to Fairhaven?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:54 am

Chris,I can't say for sure, as I haven't found anything out on it yet, but, perhaps they still had seperate women's compartments on the trains in 1892? I found this, though its from an earlier time period:

Concerns about women's flaunting social codes also appeared in nineteenth-century stories about the railroad: male observers saw trains as a place for virtuous women as well as for women who abandoned any sense of propriety. During his visit to America in 1842, Charles Dickens traveled on a railroad to Lowell, Massachusetts, and noted approvingly that American trains had separate cars for women. He observed that "any lady may travel alone from one end of the United States to the other, and be certain of the most courteous and considerate treatment everywhere." Yet Samuel Breck, in a diary of his railway travels published in America during the 1830s, complained that trains bred a loss of ladylike behavior and that women were apt to abandon their sense of decorum and gentility when they elbowed their way through crowds. In a century in which male satirists enjoyed twitting the carefully crafted facades of fastidious, fashionable women, Hugh Hughes's Pleasures of the Rail-Road lampooned unladylike behavior after an explosion, showing a woman with her skirt raised moving roughshod over the body of a fallen male passenger as she scrambles to exit the door.

From this site:
http://print.google.com/print/doc?isbn=0801866073

Mrs. Brigham sounds like she would have been a good choice to have been the one to tell Emma of the murders. She seems quite level-headed and straightforward.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:55 am

Kat,

Lizzie ans Emma would have been together until they got to the New Bedford train station. I imagine then they would have been met by different parties who took them to their respective destinations.

Susan,

I didn't know about separate cars for women. That's a possibility, I suppose. I'll have to see if I can find any local references.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:51 pm

Though not for New England, I found more on Ladie's cars on trains:

Railroads were particularly vexed spaces for racial interaction in the South not only because blacks and whites had to ride the same rails but because railroads were also a new feature of Southern life. As a result, there was no accepted code of behavior on the railroads and “Southerners might encounter strangers aboard the trains without fixed rules of deference and courtesy.” The response to unclear social relationships on the trains was to establish “proper” gender distinctions by creating a ladies’ car and a smoking car, smoking presumed as a pastime only of men. The ladies’ car, designated for ladies traveling alone or for ladies and their gentlemen companions, was always the last car on the train: furthest away from the fumes from the engine, and safest in the event of an accident. It did not take long before “passengers regularly testified that the ladies’ car was cleaner, quieter, and inhabited by a better quality of person”; as a result, the ladies’ car “was always a first-class car.”

From this site: www2.law.columbia.edu/law_culture/ LHwo ... teness.doc

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:09 pm

Good question, Harry. And good posts! Susan, your posts are great.
I wonder if those telegrams Bowen sent will ever turn up some day. That'd be neat.

I found this in Emma's trial testimony:

Q: And you received a telegram from Dr. Bowen?
A: Yes, Sir.

Q: And came, of course, as soon as you could?
A: Yes, sir.

Q: Where were you when you got the telegram?
A: At Mrs. Brownell's.

Q: At what time did you arrive at the house?
A: I think about five.

Q: That same afternoon?
A: Yes, sir

**********************

Mrs. Charles J. Holmes was in the house quite a lot to be with Lizzie, from the day of the murder on. She is another possibility.

They say the news of this traveled very fast. I wonder, if by afternoon on the train, Emma had heard the news while traveling.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:44 am

Thanks, Augusta. Yes, I like the possiblility of Mrs. Holmes as the breaker of the news, she seemed to have taken matters in her hands whilst at the Borden residence. Wasn't she one of the first people who had suggested testing to see if you could see someone lying on the floor on the side of the guest room bed?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:14 am

I thought Mrs. Holmes had too much dignity.

Mary Brigham did the experiment with Morse lying on the guest room floor.

Also, she knew the house well enough to be questioned as to the usual manner of locking the front door and had been in the dress closet.

Prelim.
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Mary E. Brigham.
Q. Are you familiar with the Borden house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. A friend of Lizzie's?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And have you been there considerable during the last two or three weeks?
A. A great deal.

Mrs. Holmes may have gone with authorities to fetch Emma, but now I am lthinking more toward a Doctor or Dr.'s wife, or Rev. Buck.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:25 am

Thanks, Kat, thats who I meant, Mary Brigham, not Mrs. Holmes. Sorry, long day, brain tired.

So, correcting myself, was it possible that it was she who was the one to break the news? Was she there when Emma arrived home that day?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:58 am

Susan, GREAT posts on the ladie's cars. All that was new to me. Thanx.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:38 pm

You're welcome, Harry. Hopefully Chris can find something thats more local on the trains in Fall River at the time. So far, it sounds as though Emma could have traveled sans chaperone in comfort and style.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:01 pm

While I'm poking around for that info, if it's even available, let's assume that Emma traveled alone. I honestly think that if she'd had a companion we would have known about it by now. Virtually everyone who entered the Borden house that day is accounted for in the press or the witness statements or various other testimonies. Earlier I was sort of just thinking aloud.

It is interesting to think that other folks on the train may have already heard about the case before Emma did and that she may have learned the details before arriving at home.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:19 am

I just can't pitcure a lady, who may never have had a telegram in her life, receive one that probably said something like Come Home In Haste Stop, and be expected to travel alone during a crisis.
Women were expected to wilt under pressure. We don't have an indication of Emma having a consistant iron resolve, whereby we could guess that she shrugged off companionship on the flight home.
Servants would do the duty easily.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:15 am

Well, this is all assuming that Emma knew nothing about the murders. Myself I think she knew about them ahead of time. I can't think of Emma without thinking of her saying that she disliked Abby more than Lizzie.

There was another lady at the house, too. One I wasn't aware of until recently. A young lady, who was a good friend of Lizzie's. And, like Alice Russell, broke her friendship off after some of the evidence started coming out.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:53 am

Augusta, that just made me think, suppose Emma did know about the murders in advance, hence the reason for her going out of town. But, she was expecting Lizzie to poison them, not chop them up. It was stated when Emma came home that she was quite overcome by the recital of the details of the murders. Somehow I don't think of Emma as a good actress, maybe that was a real reaction to plans that had gone awry?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:07 pm

It could have went that way, Susan. I always thought that Andrew wasn't supposed to go like he did. Lizzie got way upset. But, on the other hand, even if both 'girls' knew Andrew was gonna have that axe-ident, it may have been one thing to sit and talk about it with Morse and quite another thing when it actually happened. (For God's sake - his eyeball was hanging down his face, and he was dripping ... That alone could have made Lizzie sick, even if she did it herself.) But it's like when someone close to you dies. Even tho they're really sick, when they die - and you knew they were gonna - they say you are never really prepared until it actually happens. I've found this to be true in personal experience.

And people act all different ways when death comes to a loved one. If Lizzie cried or not - I don't think that means she was guilty or not guilty, no matter how she acted. People grieve differently. Right, I don't see Emma on Green Street practicing her "surprise-father-is-butchered" face. No actress she.

I do like the poison theory. I think Lizzie got 'em with a little arsenic on Tuesday night.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:08 pm

Yes, even when Morse came in with his, "My God, how did this happen?" question to Lizzie, it almost sounds contrived. Like the real question was, "I thought you were going to poison them, Lizzie? Whats with the hatchet?!" Because after that, Morse didn't seem to show much interest in Andrew or Abby, I mean, Andrew was supposed to be a friend of his!

I agree, I've never seen Lizzie's not crying upon the discovery of Andrew's body as an indication one way or the other of her status. She may have been in shock, even if she did murder them both, I would imagine murdering one's own flesh and blood could do that, or just seeing him that way would bring it on too!

Made me wonder if Emma did view the bodies at all, not like they had her do in the Legend movie, but, just for the sake that it was her father. You know, come to think of it, we know Emma didn't like Abby, but, we really don't have anything from her own lips as to her relationship with Andrew. Just that little blip from Alice about how both girls felt about him.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:26 pm

What did Alice say, Susan?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:06 am

Its from Alice's Inquest testimony:

Q. Were they congenial?
A. I should not suppose they would be - knowing their different natures.

Q. The different nature of the father and mother and Lizzie?
A. Yes, each of them.

Q. What was the difference in their natures?
A. Mr. Borden was a plain living man with rigid ideas, and very set. They were young girls. He earned his money, and he did not care for the things that young women in their position naturally would; and he looked upon those things---I don't know just how to put it.

Q. He did not appreciate girls?
A. No, I don't think he did.

Q. Their ideas were more modern than his with regard to the way of living, do you mean?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. How did you get this, from the girls talk, or what you observed?
A. From what I observed. Everybody knew what Andrew Borden's ideas were. He was a very plain living man; he did not care for anything different. It always seemed to me as if he did not see why they should care for anything different.

Q. Did they complain about it?
A. Yes, they used to think it ought to be different; there was no reason why it should not be. They used to think it might be different.

Q. Lizzie or Emma, or both?
A. Both.

Q. There was never any wrangling between them?
A. No, I never heard any. They had quite refined ideas, and they would like to have been cultured girls, and would like to have had different advantages, and it would be natural for girls to express themselves that way. I think it would have been unnatural if they had not.

It sounds like Emma mouthed off a few times in the past about ol' Andrew and his tightfisted ways and wished life was different. But, it doesn't say how she felt about him now and she wasn't asked particularly herself.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:48 am

I'm really glad that Andrew's eyeball was mentioned so the matter of it's hanging out could be addressed. Thanks! A lot of people think it was hanging out but it was cleaved in half instead:

Preliminary Hearing
Dr. Dolan
91
A. I said all were on the left side. Another one commenced here. This same wound took out a piece of the bone.
Q. Commenced where?
A. The junction of the side of the head and the forehead, on the left side, and took a piece out of the skull; came down this way, down by the outer border of the eye, completely cut the eye ball in half, came down and cut the cheek bone in half, and stopped just about above the left angle of the mouth. There were ten wounds in all on the face and the head, all parallel, all ranging from four inches to two and a half inches and an inch and a half; that is, the largest was four and a half, as I cam remember now, and from that down to an inch and a half; they were all sizes, that is, lengths. Right here, above the left ear---

oklahomabarry · Post by **oklahomabarry** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:38 pm

I'm sure that practically everyone knows more about this than I, but suppose no one had to tell Emma when she got home? Is it possible Emma knew about the deaths already, knew because she knew in advance or because she was the murderer?
I've always been suspicious of Emma's little trip and wondered if it were possible she might have rented a carriage, snuck back to Fall River and done the deed. She could have slipped back out, taking the evidence with her and tossing it into the sea.
Lizzie might only have known who the killer was.
Just my thought.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:05 am

Welcome to the forum oklahomabarry!!

The "Emma did it" theory was the theme of Spiering's book "Lizzie".

Rebello has a section on suspects. Under Emma (page 138) he cites a theory that Louis Howe, who was married to Lizzie's cousin Grace Hartley, told Edmund Pearson. It was Grace Howe along with Helen Leighton that inherited a large portion of Lizzie's estate.

Howe's theory was that Emma was crazy and suffered from epileptic fits and that she killed Abby and Andrew. She was then discovered by Lizzie and returned to Fairhaven. (Howe mistakenly thinks Emma was at Marion not Fairhaven.) Pearson published Howe's theory in 1933.

Obviously the epilepsy theory reminds us of Victoria Lincoln's theory except Lincoln has Lizzie as the murderer.

I just think the evidence is extremely weak that Emma did the killings. There is little evidence she was aware before the crimes as well. There are all kinds of problems of Emma getting back and forth between Fall River and Fairhaven without being noticed or missed by the Brownells.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:53 am

Thanks for Alice's testimony, Susan. That gives us another precious glimpse into Andrew and the 'girls' characters.

Dr. Dolan makes it sound like Andrew's eye was still in the socket. I always read that it ... uh, ... wasn't.

Welcome, Oklahomabarry! Have you read "Lizzie" by Frank Spiering? Like Harry says, he has Emma as the perp.

He uses a couple of things as his basis. He says Emma's alibi was never checked out. I read that it was. And there was this small, white faced man with a (fake?) mustache hanging around the fence in front who was acting nervously. I don't know if they ever found out who that man was.

I agree, Harry. It would have been too hard for Emma to go back and forth with her hosts right there. I'd think that would cause me to discount Emma as the murderer. Maybe not as a conspirator, but as the actual murderer.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:00 am

You're welcome, Augusta, I still wish there was more from Emma on her feelings or thoughts on Andrew. She was the first born daughter, but, Lizzie seemed to be daddy's little girl, makes me wonder if there was any jealousy directed towards Lizzie because of that?

Welcome to the forum, OklahomaBarry. Kat and I were kicking that idea around in the past, Emma as murderess. Yes, it would have been difficult for Emma to have slipped away from her hosts undetected and made it back to Fall River, done the deed and got back in time to receive the telegram. Difficult, but, not impossible, at least thats the way I look at it.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:28 am

Hello and welcome, Oklahoma Barry! Kat and I are kicking around an Emma as poisoner theory for fun on the poison thread.

--Lyddie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:24 am

Avast Ye Matey!
Yo-Ho-Ho And A Bottle Of Rum!

I always like Emma for the murders. But I have to force her into it.
Hatchet could be Lizzie, poison could be Emma, if we examine their natures.

If we had to choose which girl killed which Borden (say if both contributed), who would Emma have personally killed and who, Lizzie?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:29 am

In that scenario Kat, I would go with Emma killing Andrew and Lizzie killing Abby.

Tracy...

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:33 pm

As I've mentioned before, there's an awful long time between when Bowen sends the telegram and when Emma gets home. Emma also says she traveled from New Bedford to Fall River via Weir Junction in Taunton, which is way out of the way, but a good excuse for being late.

Do we know for certain that Emma was actually sitting at 19 Green Street when the telegram from Bowen was delivered?

It seems to me that she might have been able to have "gone out" early and got back to the Brownell's somewhat later in the afternoon. "Oh, here. Emma, this telegram arrived for you a couple of hours ago. . ."

If you think about the fact that she supposedly took a rather late afternoon train back to Fall River, there's an couple of hours of unaccounted for time in there.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:54 pm

Thanks, Chris, I totally agree, Emma could have been doing anything during that time before the telegram arrived and possibly after. All we know is that she must have received the message at some point and came back to Fall River.

If we had to choose which girl killed which Borden (say if both contributed), who would Emma have personally killed and who, Lizzie?

Hmmm, thats a toughy when it comes to Andrew, we hear from Emma herself that she hated Abby more than Lizzie, so, I'd opt for Emma doing Abby in. Lizzie seems more like daddy's girl, so, if that left her to kill Andrew, it might be tougher on her. We don't really know how Emma felt about him at all. How about Emma killing both?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:04 am

I can see either girl or both killing Abby but neither killing Andrew.
If I had to choose I think Emma/Abby & Lizzie/Andrew.

I don't know why Emma didn't just poison Abby and the girls could have Andrew all to themselves again and I think at his age he might have softened.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:13 am

That's right, Kat. If just Abby were killed the girls would have Andrew to themselves. But he probably would have suspected it was them and started blabbing.

Things may have been so strained in that house, that even if Abby did die and Andrew had lived, he might have just willed everything to charity and excluded the girls.

Weren't there different times that Emma could have come home on the train? I read that before, but I don't know if the writer of it actually had a time table.

All I have read for 'proof' of Emma's alibi was a sentence or two that said the police checked out Emma's alibi - they talked to the Brownells and it checked out. I haven't read anything indepth on it.

You'd think there'd be some sort of formal statement regarding it. I picture the cops saying, "Emma was away. But I guess we should go to the Brownells just to cover our behinds." "Okay." And off a couple of cops go. Knock, knock. "Yes?" "Mrs. Brownell?" "Yes." "Did Emma Borden stay here for several days up until August 4th." "Yes, she did." "Okay. That's all we - " "But on August the 4th, she -" "Oh, don't be troublin' yourself, Mrs. B. We just wanted to be sure she was here."
"But that morning she went - " "Ah, we don't need details, ma'am. No need. Thanks for your time."

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:50 am

I just thought of something. Weren't the Brownells elderly? Could they have been fed times by an Emma who knew full well they would never remember the times for themselves and never ever suspect her of any wrongdoing? Maybe their forgetfulness could be used to advantage. . .

--Lyddie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:44 pm

Here's Hoffman:

Helen Brownell was the friend Emma was visiting at Fairhaven.
Helen's mother lived there, who was 78.
Helen was "approximately thirteen years older than Emma..."
Moses Delano was b. c. 1815.

"When Fall River policemen later interviewed them, both Brownells strongly stated that Emma was with them at the time of the murders."
Hoffman doesn't give his source.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:47 pm

Thanks, Kat. I wonder if thats supposed to mean that the two Brownells physically had Emma with them at the time, or just that she was staying with them at the time of the murders?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:31 pm

I've been looking at a few books to see whether the police checked on Emma's presence at the Brownells. Like all things with the Borden case there are completely different answers:

Spiering, page 65: "Knowlton, Hilliard and Dolan were so involved in the chaotic details before them that one possibility never entered their minds: Why not check with the Brownell family, who lived in Fairhaven, as to Emma's whereabouts on that morning?"

Spiering again, page 234: "What seemed equally mysterious was that according to the inquest and trial testimony, on the morning of the murders Emma was visiting Jennie Brownell in Fairhaven, yet no one substantiated Emma's presence there. Even though Emma was never a suspect, it would appear to have been routine procedure for a police officer or a newspaper reporter to have interviewed Jennie Brownell."

However, Arnold Brown has this on page 26: "Those who were at the Brownell cottage, with Emma were questioned mercilessly by the police and interviewed to the point of harassment by newspaper reporters. The Brownells were unanimous and unequivocal in their confirmation of Emma's presence in Fairhaven at the time of the murders."

Spiering has Emma visiting "Jennie" Brownell while everyone else has her visiting Helen Brownell.

Helen Brownell was 54, some 13 years older than Emma. This "Jennie" Brownell cited by Spiering, he says was about that many years younger than Emma. It would appear that Spiering has the wrong Brownell family.

Geez.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:34 pm

Did a newspaper send someone to check Emma's story as well, like they talked to the Davis family and the Emerys about Morse?

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:56 am

New Bedford EVENING STANDARD, August 25, 1892

From Yesterday’s Third Edition.

LIZZIE BORDEN’S LETTER.

Emma’s Friends in Fairhaven
Seen This Afternoon.

Mrs. Allen Brownell No Recollection
Of the Circumstance Related.

The Missive May Have Been Shown
To Her Daughter.

Immediately upon the receipt of news from the Standard’s special correspondent in Fall River in relation to the singular experience of Lizzie Borden as related by her at the inquest, given on the first page, a Standard reporter called at the residence of Mrs. Allen Brownell on Green street, where Emma Borden was on a visit to Miss Helen Brownell, a daughter of Mrs. Brownell above named. Unfortunately Miss Brownell was not in town, and when the newspaper man stated that he had called for the purpose of ascertaining as to the truth of the alleged statement of Miss Borden that she had shown such a letter to her friends in Fairhaven, Mrs. Brownell said she could not say whether she had or not. She certainly had not shown such a letter to her, and she could not say whether Emma had shown such a letter to her daughter or not. She remembered that Miss Borden had had several letters during her visit, but could not remember whether she received one the day previous to the murder or not.
When asked if her daughter would not have been likely to have mentioned the fact if such a letter had been shown, Mrs. Brownell replied, “Yes, I think she would.”
In speaking of the tragedy, Mrs. Brownell did not hesitate to speak strongly in support of Lizzie’s innocence. She said that both of the girls always spoke in endearing terms of their father. Emma, she stated, had intended to remain in Fairhaven all Summer.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:58 pm

Mrs. Brownell sounds befuddled to say the least. Didn't one theorist suggest that Emma might have closeted herself in her room with a headache, then slipped out a window? It's hard to imagine Emma having that much oomph, but maybe she had untold depths.

--Lyddie

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:25 pm

Thanks for that, Chris. Interesting, I wonder why they were so concerned with a letter that was purported to have been delivered the day before the murders, especially if Emma had shown it to Helen. Did they think that Lizzie wrote of what her intentions were on how to get rid of the elder Bordens in it, or that it might contain some sort of clue? Was Emma ever asked to produce the letter to anyone?

So, it sounds like ol' Emma did love her father, or at least spoke lovingly about him. It gives us one more little piece of the Emma puzzle.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:52 pm

Yes, thank you Chistopher for the trascription.

Maybe that letter was the one which told of the prowler Lizzie kept supposedly seeing.
The police would be interested in a man loitering at night around the Borden back steps.

They didn't ask about Emma's alibi while they were at it?

I can understand why Helen left town!

Emma had said much later that on Memorial Day she brought flowers to her father's grave but that Lizzie had hers sent...(Casebook, 254)