Bridget the housekeeper did it?

[Angel]

It's a very nice picture, Tracy.

[shakiboo]

I think there could be alot of difference size wise, between you and Abby, even with your being the same height and approximately the same weight. She was described as fleshy, (flabby?). Muscle weights more then fat, so you could weigh about the same yet look entirerly different, if you see what I mean??? And if that 25lbs on Abby was flab, she would look alot bigger then you. I don't think she looked as good as you do. Your a blond......for some reason I had you pictured in my mind as having dark hair! It's really nice to be able to see what the people were chatting with really look like!

[RayS]

Fat has 9 times the volume per weight compared to muscle. Or so I read.
That is why a fat person can float easily.

[Smudgeman]

Thanks for sharing your words of wisdom Ray, geesh!. Tracy, I think you look great in that picture!

[shakiboo]

Fat has 9 times the volume per weight compared to muscle. Or so I read.
That is why a fat person can float easily.

Yes, thanks Rays, I knew there was a big difference, didn't realize it was that much. There's also a big difference in age and physical activities, between the two. I agree, Tracy looks good, but Abby wouldn't have looked that good.

[theebmonique]

Thank you all for your kind comments !

While it is true that muscle weighs more than the same amount of fat, it does not guarantee the ability to float.

I wonder if some of Abby's "fleshy" appearance was due to not a lot of physical activity. Although I would think going up and down those stairs all the time would have been at least some kind of exercise. If Abby had any medical issues such as thyroid problems, that could also be a factor in her size.





Tracy...

[TrishF]

This is off on another thought, but was the question of a "thud" addressed in the trial? When Abby fell, her body more than likely slammed down hard on the floor. And a loud thud---it doesn't matter how much you weigh either---gets the attention of most people.

Did both Lizzie and Bridget play dumb on that?

[theebmonique]

This is a question that does come up now and then. If Abby was kneeling when killed, there may not have been as much of a thud.

(Angel, didn't you say something about the kneeling thing most recently ? I can't remember which thread)





Tracy...

[Fargo]

Why would Bridget be too scared to go up back stairs by herself so that she had to have someone with her and then too scared to go up the front stairs by herself so that Mrs Churchill had to go with her ? Yet when they found Abby's body Bridget went running into the murder room by herself to open the shutters, while for all she knew the murderer could still be in there, lying in wait for victim number three.

If bridget was the killer, then taking off to hide would not have been in her best interest. Then they would know she did it. To wash the windows where she could be seen by many would be her best bet.

Many of the people who would see Bridget might not be sure of the time they saw her and could tell the police that she was washing windows when the murders were comitted. Some of Bridgets witnessses might assume that she was washing windows all mourning and be willing to testify to that as fact.

Washing the windows and acting like she knew nothing might have been Bridget's best chance to get away with it and one thing is certain, if Bridget was the killer, that is exactly what she did.

When I write my book on the case, and I will write it. There will be a chapter titled

Bridget Sullivan, Lizzie Borden in disguise ?

[Kat]

It's an interesting question as to why Bridget would go into the room. I don't think she touched the shutters tho. Dr. Bowen said it was not light in there when he went up.

I think human nature might account for Bridget going in to see Abbie's body. That happened to me. I was about to enter a room, with another person, of my own volition, that contained a hanging man- Just getting caught up in the moment, and excitement and shock when it is someone one knows. I stopped and thought and realized I did not want to do that. I was only steps away when I caught myself. I'm very glad I did. I think Bridget just might not have stopped and thought about what she would see.

[Allen]

This is off on another thought, but was the question of a "thud" addressed in the trial? When Abby fell, her body more than likely slammed down hard on the floor. And a loud thud---it doesn't matter how much you weigh either---gets the attention of most people.

Did both Lizzie and Bridget play dumb on that?

I have recently rewatched a show on television called Lizzie Borden Had an Axe ( in which we get to see Kat ) There is so much information that is portrayed as being known facts that are basically nothing more than conjecture or just down right erroneous information, in my opinion. But there are some interesting points as well. Bill Pavao, the former curator of the B&B, stated that Abby's body falling to the floor would've produced enough noise to have been heard by the other occupants of the house. I assume he conducted a few experiments concerning this which is how he formed his opinion. This is what I gathered from his statements.

[william]

This is a continuing puzzle. Starting about nine A.M., Abby was in the guest room. Bridget and Lizzie, by their own testimony, were in and out of the house during the early part of the morning.
If Abby was standing when attacked, there is a good probability that someone in the house would have heard it. Naturally if both were outside, there would have been no one to hear her fall - assuming there was no imysterious intruder.

If Abby was on her knees tydying up the bedclosthes when attacked, she would have made little if any noise just toppling over. If this supposition is true, it wouldn't have made any difference whether Lizzie or Bridget were in or out of the house.

In one scenario, Lizzie can be made out to be the murderer - in another - Bridget is the culprit.

You can go around and around on this one and if you check the previous discussions it would seem that the matter has been discussed ad nauseam.
I doubt whether this question will ever be resolved.

[affie4u]

Do you think it is possible that Bridget could of been in on it? Lets say that 2 people work together. since both where home at the time, Lizzie & bridget, could one like Lizzie of Killed and Bridget helped her cover it up & help clean Lizzie off. Maybe Bridget had a pay off from Lizzie? Bridget helped lizzie clean the blood off by having a big bucket of water ready to bath Lizzie in? Acourse, that does not explain how they got the AX hidden and nobody every found it. It does sound strange that 2 people would not notice the sounds of 2 people being murdered in a house. They must of screamed when the Ax hit them since they where not killed right away (like if you do it with a gun).

[Angel]

Well, when you think about it, everything about this case has been discussed ad nauseum. But, then we wouldn't have a forum if we view it that way.

I think the only answer to why Abby wasn't heard hitting the floor was that she was kneeling at the time of the attack. That's why she was found in that ridiculous position with her butt up in the air.

[shakiboo]

I think she was crawling, the first blow stunned her, and she went to her knee's, and then tried to crawl away. The position she's in just doesn't look like she fell that way. There wouldn't be a loud crash if she slowly went to her knee's first, then on down. With the murderer, swinging right after her. God, that poor old women!

[RayS]

Thanks for sharing your words of wisdom Ray, geesh!. Tracy, I think you look great in that picture!

I've thought of using the Michelin Man as my avatar, but some might complain. I'm not that fat, its just gas.

[RayS]

This is a continuing puzzle. Starting about nine A.M., Abby was in the guest room. Bridget and Lizzie, by their own testimony, were in and out of the house during the early part of the morning.
If Abby was standing when attacked, there is a good probability that someone in the house would have heard it. Naturally if both were outside, there would have been no one to hear her fall - assuming there was no imysterious intruder.

If Abby was on her knees tydying up the bedclosthes when attacked, she would have made little if any noise just toppling over. If this supposition is true, it wouldn't have made any difference whether Lizzie or Bridget were in or out of the house.

In one scenario, Lizzie can be made out to be the murderer - in another - Bridget is the culprit.

You can go around and around on this one and if you check the previous discussions it would seem that the matter has been discussed ad nauseam.
I doubt whether this question will ever be resolved.

I understand that the whacks were on Abby's face, facing the killer. She must have been turned over for that picture. Yes, I don't want to look it up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Kat.

[RayS]

Well, when you think about it, everything about this case has been discussed ad nauseum. But, then we wouldn't have a forum if we view it that way.

I think the only answer to why Abby wasn't heard hitting the floor was that she was kneeling at the time of the attack. That's why she was found in that ridiculous position with her butt up in the air.

What if Abby falls and no one hears it? Did it really happen? Zen wisdom?

Bridget was outside around 9:30, she could not have heard it.
Lizzie said she was in the cellar WC and heard nothing.
Don't forget the noise outside from traffic on Second St.

[TrishF]

This is off on another thought, but was the question of a "thud" addressed in the trial? When Abby fell, her body more than likely slammed down hard on the floor. And a loud thud---it doesn't matter how much you weigh either---gets the attention of most people.

Did both Lizzie and Bridget play dumb on that?

I have recently rewatched a show on television called Lizzie Borden Had an Axe ( in which we get to see Kat ) There is so much information that is portrayed as being known facts that are basically nothing more than conjecture or just down right erroneous information, in my opinion. But there are some interesting points as well. Bill Pavao, the former curator of the B&B, stated that Abby's body falling to the floor would've produced enough noise to have been heard by the other occupants of the house. I assume he conducted a few experiments concerning this which is how he formed his opinion. This is what I gathered from his statements.

Hmm...that facet of the case puzzled me a bit when I gave it some thought. Lizzie said that she was in the house at the time of Abby's death. Did she also have selective hearing as well as a selective memory? I just don't get that part of her story.

[TrishF]

I think she was crawling, the first blow stunned her, and she went to her knee's, and then tried to crawl away. The position she's in just doesn't look like she fell that way. There wouldn't be a loud crash if she slowly went to her knee's first, then on down. With the murderer, swinging right after her. God, that poor old women!

But she was fixing the pillow cases, wasn't she? I don't kneel down when I fix my pillows. Hmm...another one of those unanswerable questions, I suppose.

[theebmonique]

This is a continuing puzzle. Starting about nine A.M., Abby was in the guest room. Bridget and Lizzie, by their own testimony, were in and out of the house during the early part of the morning.
If Abby was standing when attacked, there is a good probability that someone in the house would have heard it. Naturally if both were outside, there would have been no one to hear her fall - assuming there was no imysterious intruder.

If Abby was on her knees tydying up the bedclosthes when attacked, she would have made little if any noise just toppling over. If this supposition is true, it wouldn't have made any difference whether Lizzie or Bridget were in or out of the house.

In one scenario, Lizzie can be made out to be the murderer - in another - Bridget is the culprit.

You can go around and around on this one and if you check the previous discussions it would seem that the matter has been discussed ad nauseam.
I doubt whether this question will ever be resolved.

I understand that the whacks were on Abby's face, facing the killer. She must have been turned over for that picture. Yes, I don't want to look it up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Kat.

No need to bother Kat, Ray...I'll correct you...by telling you to not be such a lazy a**, but actually read the autopsy report for starters. My hell, you have been around long enough to know where all of this type of information is located...you just want someone else to do the work for you...or in other words...you can look it up.





Tracy...

[Susan]

I had made a point in the past, which unfortunately is moot due to the crime scene photos being comprimised. But, my point was that I think if Abby had been kneeling, she would have pulled her skirts out from under her knees more and they would then be bunched under her body when she fell. I don't know if any of you ladies own a really long skirt, but, try it, try kneeling on the skirt and then see if it isn't easier with the skirt pulled out a bit from under your knees as you kneel. By that I mean kneeling and moving, like tucking in bed sheets. I think with men examining the bodies they didn't think to closely examine the condition of Abby's skirts and make note of it. We may have had more of an answer to the standing vs. kneeling issue.

I've tried experiments in the past wearing long cotton skirts to simulate a skirt and petticoat and falling from a standing position. With the exception of a couple of times, the back of the skirts lifted up and off of my legs to one side. When kneeling and falling, the skirts stayed in place in back, just at my ankles. Oh, to have immediate crime scene photos of the Bordens before they were examined and such.

[Kat]

I have recently rewatched a show on television called Lizzie Borden Had an Axe ( in which we get to see Kat ) There is so much information that is portrayed as being known facts that are basically nothing more than conjecture or just down right erroneous information, in my opinion.

--Missy/Allen

Of course, you don't mean MOI, right, who portrayed as facts things that are really conjecture?
It was the real cop.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Bridget was outside around 9:30, she could not have heard it.
Lizzie said she was in the cellar WC and heard nothing.

--Ray

Please please please get your timeline straight! We just talked about this within a week.
Bridget
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... ridget.htm

Lizzie
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Lizzie.htm

I think you need to unlearn everything and learn it again. If you want to keep your mind agile, as you claim, you will do this.

[TrishF]

LOL....here's Bridget's 9-9:30 timeline:

9- 9:30 a.m. — Bridget cleaned her kitchen.
Shut 1 sitting room window and 2 dining room windows in preparation of washing windows.
Did not see Lizzie.
Did not go in the parlor at all.
9:30 a.m. — Bridget started to get her implements together to wash windows outside.
Lizzie appeared at back screen door to inquire if Bridget was about to wash windows, while Bridget was just outside.

Bridget would have (and so would Lizzie, it appears) heard a "thud" coming from the upper floor. So again, the oft-asked question comes up....was this just selective memory or did they both have something to hide??

[Kat]

That was from my timeline, right? I thought i recognized the wording. I would hope he would go look for himself.
We're making it too easy for him!
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... ridget.htm

Shelley has experimented and tells exactly what part of the house would hear a thud and what does not. Somewhere around here...

[Fargo]

I checked the Trial testimony. You are right Kat, Bridget did go into the Guest room and walked up to Abby's body, but she didn't open the shutters. I do remember reading somewhere that she opened the shutters though. It must have been another secondary source where someone got the facts wrong again, we all know there are enough of them out there.

I actually get a kick out of reading some of the writings that are so off, that they are ridiculous.

[Kat]

I'm glad you have fun with that! I stay away from articles with wrong facts because I don't want my brain to burst from misinformation!
(Especially articles that attempt to point out other articles errors and their replacement *facts* are in error!)
AAARRGGGHHH!

[Harry]

Regarding the shutters, another Lincoln-ism. From page 109 of the paperback edition:

"Bridget hurried up the front stairs, with Mrs. Churchill close behind her. At the turn of the staircase they could see under the guest-room bed to its further side. The old white calico showed up, even in the darkened room. Bridget ran in and threw open the shutters.

There is no such testimony regarding the shutters. And Lincoln boasts of reading the Trial transcript!

[RayS]

Things were different in those days. There is no record (?) of the condition of Abby's dress when the body was discovered. Somebody could have adjusted the dress before the photographs. Modesty?

"The Wrong Man" by James Neff tells how the pajamas on the body of Marilyn Sheppard was adjusted. But this 'tampered with evidence'.

[SallyG]

With all this speculating about how much, if any, noise Abby might have made when she hit the floor I notice none of us have thought of one simple thing. We speculate whether Abby was standing when she was hit and "crashed" to the floor, or if she was kneeling and just slumped down when she was hit, making no real noise.

Remember the position Abby was found in...between the dresser and the bed. We don't know that the first blow totally felled her. Rather than "crashing" to the floor, she may very well have reached out for either the bed or the dresser, going to her knees. The next blow may have taken her totally down, still without any "crashing" noises.

Do we know that the first blow killed her? It may have driven her forward and down, but not totally down.

[nishmat]

Any possiblities that both Abby and Andrew came face to face with their killer at all?

[Kat]

I doubt Abbie's first blow drove her crashing down.
Since it was to the side of her face, if she fell then at that time, she would have been on her back.
Since she was face down, it's possible she turned away throwing her hands up to her ear areas, and stumbled down to one knee, then both...I think she would tend to crouch to make herself a smaller target instinctively and to try to protect her head.
Since she had no wounds on her hands, the next blow may be the one to her back and that could lay her out flat.

[Fargo]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this but I don't like posting new topics if it's not neccesary, especially if it is unlikely that there will be much discusion about it anyway.

From page 155 of the Prelimenary Hearing. According to Bridget, Andrew would bring in the clothes line after the wash was done and make sure the basement door was locked himself.

I am not sure if Bridget meant the clothes, or the clothes line, or both. But why would Andrew take down the clothes line after every wash load? Did he think it might get stolen?

If Bridget meant the clothes themselves then why would Andrew take the clothes off the line? Wouldn't that be Bridbet's job? or Abby's or Lizzie's? Why Andrew?

I am wondering if Bridget might have said that to put the responsibility
of locking the basement door on Andrew and not herself. That way she could not say for sure if it was locked on Aug 4th.

[shakiboo]

I think Bridget meant the clothes line itself, my mother hung clothes out on the line when I was a kid and my dad would put it up for her and take it back down every week. It was too high for her to reach and it needed to be pulled pretty tight so the clothes wouldn't touch the ground. Not to mention the line lasted longer if kept out of the weather etc. I don't think Bridget would lie about Andrew locking the door, there were too many people who could say otherwise, (Emma and Lizzie) if it weren't right.

[terrie]

I've always felt a bit sorry for poor Bridget. While she seems to have been relatively content working for the Bordens, can you imagine what it must have been like? Scrubbing, scouring, old mutton stew making, cleaning outside windows in blazing heat. Ick. And, to make matters worse, Emma and Lizzie didn't even call her by her right name, opting to call her by the name of a former maid, Maggie, instead.

I don't think Bridget was the perpetrator... but I am at a loss as to whether she knew more than she let on or not. Did American servants live up to their British counterparts, witnessing personal affairs that they'd never divulge publicly?

Anyway... to all accounts I have read, Bridget's life after the murders was fairly simple and not attention-getting. She seems to have been a solid woman with simple wants. It's hard for me to cast her as a murderess.

[irina]

Considering "sheets", here is the bigger discussion of what I posted on the recent thread.

[Curryong]

Thanks, Irina. Yes, Dr Bowen wanted a sheet not a blanket or blankets. If Masterson really does say that, what a blunder!
It's interesting that quite early posters joke about topics having been discussed ad nauseum. I wonder what they would say now!

[irina]

Yikes! I didn't know this was a 2 page thread. I came into it with a search on "Bridget Sullivan" which came in on page 2. What I found relevant was on page 2. Looks like there was a bit of dissension on page 1. I was specifically referring to comments about Bridget being afraid to enter a room for a sheet, but going into the room where Abby's body was.