Angel @ Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:55 am wrote:[quote="shakiboo @ Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:13 am
But, Lizzie said her last day of her cycle was Wednesday, that would be too late for Bridget to get them in the laundry, as she had already done the wash. .
But, that's what Lizzie SAID--how do we know she was telling the truth? She may not even had her cycle during that time.[/quote]
...AND, how do we know Lizzie even had regular cycles ? If Bridget was asked to testify if the dates Lizzie claimed to be on her period were her 'regular' dates...Bridget may not know exactly what Lizzie's cucle was. This could be due to Lizzie not sharing that kind of information with Bridget, or Lizzie could have not been having regular cycles to menopausal/pre-menopausal symptoms.
That could have also been the reason Bridget left in such a big hurry, and didn't want to go back....she knew those bloody napkins weren't from Lizzies monthly. She'd know especially if she was the one who washed them every month. I wonder why no one pushed it any further to find out. Or if they did why they just sorta let it go unanswered. Surely Knowlton couldn't have been that embarressed, when he had a chance to possibly nail Lizzie to the wall.
Angel @ Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:47 am wrote:Probably because there really was no way to prove it one way or the other
Exactly! The only one possibly able to refute Lizzie's word was Bridget, and Lizzie would appear as a better authority concerning her own cycle. One other item, if odor was a consideration after a time, would a lack of odor tell investigators anything?
Dr. Dolan
Prelim
Q. Do you remember a pail in the cellar?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And were there some clothes or napkins in that pail?
A. Yes Sir, three.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. I examined them casually.
Q. Did you take them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were they taken by anybody?
A. By the officer, officer Mullaly I think I told to take them.
Q. What was subsequently done with them, if you know?
A. Nothing; they were left down stairs in the marshal’s office, and nothing further done with them.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 189
Q. Did you become satisfied that they had no connection with this case?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton.) We claim nothing at present.
___________
Trial
George Allen
437
Q. What observation did you make in the cellar?
A. Well, I saw Mr. Mullaly pull some cloths out of a tub and looked at a door without a lock.
Q. The door was bolted then?
A. The door was bolted.
Q. You saw it?
A. Yes, sir, an iron bolt.
Q. This was the cellar door you are talking about?
A. Yes, sir.
________
Trial
Fleet
Page 550
Q. You spoke of finding a pail near the foot of the stairs---I think you did, as you went down,---didn't you?
A. I did not. There was one there; I did not testify to that, I think.
Q. There was one there?
A. There was in the wash cellar.
Q. There was one there?
A. In the wash cellar.
Q. There were clothes in it?
A. There were.
MR. ROBINSON. It is agreed that that pail contained the napkins which had been worn within a day or two by the defendant,---the ordinary monthly sickness---and as to that fact that is all we propose to put in. We do not care to go into the details. It is also agreed that the sickness ended Wednesday night.
That is all, Mr. Fleet.
_________
Trial
Doherty
596
Q. You went down cellar: Tell us what you did down there.
A. We went down cellar, we went into two or three dark places, wood or coal rooms or something. We separated. I got over near the sink and I noticed a pail and some towels.
Q. Pass from those.
___________
706
Medley
Trial
Q. You went in the house?
A. Yes, sir, after going in the back entry I went to go down in the cellar, and while going down in the cellar officer Mullaly, I think, was on the back cellar stairs, or near there, and I saw this pail, in the wash cellar and called his attention to it, and that is all I did there.
Q. You did not continue down in the cellar?
A. No, sir.
Q. You went out in the yard and then you got your instructions?
A. Yes, sir.
______
Trial
Hyde
847
Q. Had you seen that pail there with the cloths in it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was that standing?
A. That pail, when I see it, it was standing on the south side of the wash cellar.
Q. Well, that is pretty near where you were?
A. Pretty near where I was.
Q. And that pail was pretty near the sink, wasn't it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you saw what was in that pail, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I don't mean to go into it. You saw it?
A. Yes, sir; that was my impression.
________
Mullaly testified pages 609 + but I can't find him making a statement about the bloody cloths.
I have not finished looking- but anyone who can do a better search, please include the info here. Thanks!
From Witness Statement of Wm Medley 8/4/92, pg. 28:
"I inquired [of Lizzie] about some cloths which looked, to me like small towels, they were covered with blood, and in a pail half filled with water, and in the wash cellar. She said that was all right; she had told the Doctor all about that. I then asked her how long the pail and its contents had been there; and she said three or four days. I asked the Doctor about it, and he said it had been explained to him, and was all right.
In memory of....Laddie Miller, Royal Nelson and Donald Stewart, Lizzie Borden's dogs. "Sleeping Awhile."
I forebear to allude to what is proved in this case, Miss Borden's illness, monthly illness, at that time, and to tell you or remind you that Prof. Wood said he would not undertake to say that that blood was not the menstrual blood. You know the facts. I need not give them in detail. you know enough in your own households; you know all about it. You are men, and human. You have your feelings about it. I am not going to drag them up, but you must not lose sight of these things.
In memory of....Laddie Miller, Royal Nelson and Donald Stewart, Lizzie Borden's dogs. "Sleeping Awhile."
Thank you for your posting from the source documents. In my opinion it sounds to me like the men knew they HAD TO ACKNOWLEDGE what they saw down in the cellar because of the blood issue. But they were VERY uncomfortable about looking, analyzing or talking about it. First they call it an "illness" then say you all know about it, you have you're own feeling about it. An all male jury probably wanted to totally skip the issue. I'm glad you wrote from the source documents because I thought somewhere I read that the pail was behind the stove. Why you would want that in your kitchen I have no idea. Was Lizzie (she was acquitted so I'll say)---do you think she was smart enough to figure out that this was one way to hide any cleanup cloths she would have to use in this crime. Or if when she killed (if this wasn't planned) when she saw all the blood thought of it in a panic, thinking how will I hide this? Also I need your opinion------I was reading 40 Whacks but stopped because I thought it might be better to first read all the source documents. I'm reading Lizzie's inquest right now. All the information on the inquests, then witness statements, then the trial transcipts. I thought if I had that as a base I could then read the books and compare what they say to the actual record. If any questions come up along the way, I could start a new subject posting just listed as questions about inquest etc.... What do you think?
Good for you, SteveS!
I was just collecting that same stuff!
Thanks for the contribution.
Here is more from Robinson's Closing:
ROBINSON CHARGE TO THE JURY
Trial
Pg.1693+
..."Miss Russell said, You had better go [to Marion on vacation], and she [Lizzie] finally said she would. She goes down there [to Alice's] and talks it over. Naturally she would. Miss Russell had visited there and told her all about it. Those were indications, they say that crime was in her [Lizzie's] heart. There are a good many people, we may say that believe in premonitions, and things will happen sometime for which we see no adequate cause for predicting and often the succeeding events happen through a mere coincidence, there is no connection between the two, but an event will so happen as to seem to furnish a connection. I do not say it is one way or the other. It is not for me to declare, but you will recollect that Miss Lizzie's illness was continuing at that time, and we know from sad experience that there is many a woman at such a time as that is all unbalanced, her disposition disturbed, her mind unsettled for the time being and everything is out of sorts and out of joint and she really is disabled for a period of time. Now that appears to have been the case at this time. It is a common fact and a common explanation in every day life and you cannot overlook it.
There was talk about poison and poison was feared in the family because all had been made sick. Then they say for some reason, I don't know what, that Miss Lizzie went down stairs in the cellar that Thursday night. Well, she did with Miss Russell. But what did they do? They did what a good many of us have to do at home. They did something about the house. There had been people there examining the room and looking over the bodies and there was water in the pitcher up in her room and people had been washing there during the day and Mrs. Holmes said, "If I should stay there all night I should want the slop pail emptied." These two young women went downstairs. You will be inclined to say there was not any criminal act in that, especially as Miss Lizzie took Miss Russell with her and everything was seen that they did. They say after that Miss Russell returned and Lizzie came with the light all round and sat it on a table in the lower wash room and went over and stooped down near the sink. I will not say she did not stay there all the time,---stooped down, but she really did straighten up at length and get back up stairs and took the light with her. What of it? What of it? They say that those clothes which were taken off the dead bodies were lying there in a pile. Very well. Take it for what it is worth. But that house was surrounded by policemen and officer Hyde was there and Miss Lizzie had a full grown kerosene lamp in her hand and the windows were all open with ample opportunity for observers outside to see in and those within the house knew that policemen were all round so that there was nothing concealed. Now a person who is going to do anything to cover up crime will not carry an electric light with him. You don't usually travel round when contemplating crime, in that way. The criminal goes into the dark to do his dark deed. Miss Lizzie did not see anybody though they say Officer Ferguson was in front, but he is not brought forward, and if he were he could not see through two high board partitions. That would tax the energy and perspicacity of even a Fall River policeman. Where is Ferguson? He is not here, so he did not see anything.
Taking again her own sickness at that time, the fact that that pail was standing right by the sink---I am not going to make any suggestions, but I am quite certain that you will guess what she was there for. I will leave it there..."
I've been thinking more about this, and a possible theory which we haven't touched upon yet might be that once Alice went down cellar with Lizzie, and they returned upstairs- and Lizzie went down again on her own- it might not be that Alice thwarted any plan Lizzie had in the cellar and so she felt the need to return alone as she had planned to go in the beginning- but rather it's possible that Lizzie saw something down cellar on that first trip that caused her to decide to return on her own to check it more thoroughly.
Maybe Lizzie needed to check the napkin pail to find out if a hatchet head had been discovered? Or maybe she needed to put one there? Maybe she wanted to see if the pail and contents had been disturbed if it was in a place other than where she left it.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Maybe she saw something on the first trip down and brought it back upstairs with her alone on her second trip, and hid it after that, or kept it on her?
If there was something in the pail earlier and the pail looked as though it may have been disturbed or examined, having been determined on the first trip downstairs, maybe she needed to see if it was still in the pail. It may have been time to move whatever was in the pail besides napkins. Lizzie only needed to keep something like the head of a hatchet one step ahead of the police for a while. She didn't absolutely need to dispose of it right away. If she couldn't get any distance from the house to dispose of it in the short time available, the smart thing to do was to chance keeping it nearby.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
I was just thinking that if Lizzie did do it and then painstakingly cleaned herself up it would appear the reason she didn't rush in (if she were indeed innocent) and touch him in some way out of hysteria or to see if he was dead was because she was acutely paranoid of getting any blood on her. If she was guilty and had just mopped herself up it would be upppermost in her mind NOT to touch the area. If she was innocent it wouldn't have occurred to her.
Either acutely aware, or just plain smart because she knew she killed them. If she cleaned herself up, with the help of Bridget, she wouldn't be wanting to get herself "dirty" again. She wanted to look "fresh" for the cops.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
