June 2007 Visit to Lizzie's House

[Richard]

Hi guys,
I'm going to gradually post a few pictures from my visit. The visit was very exciting because I got to meet Stefani, Len, Ed, Eleanor, Lee Ann and Angel. I stayed two nights in a row, once in Lizzie's room, and then in Andrew's bedroom. Both nights were peaceful, quiet and ghost-free.

Here's the first picture.

[Richard]

Here's a picture of Shelley and Stefani

[Richard]

Here's a nice one of Ed...

[Richard]

Here's the piano top in the Parlor

[Richard]

Here's me talking to Len Rebello. A few minutes later he was getting a restraining order against me.

[shakiboo]

Thanks Richard, for sharing the pictures!!

[Kat]

Wow! Great Pics! Thanks!

[Susan]

Thanks for sharing your trip pics, Richard. Who is that chopping you in the first photo? I'm so envious of you all, sounds like you had a mini version of the Forum going on right there in Fall River.

[twinsrwe]

... I'm so envious of you all, sounds like you had a mini version of the Forum going on right there in Fall River.

I agree, Susan!!! What a great experience you had, Richard!!! The pics are wonderful, thanks for sharing them with us.

[Allen]

Thanks so much for sharing your pictures with us Richard. I'm very glad you had a nice time on your trip.

[Richard]

It was sort of a mini-versoin of the Forum. It was just luck that so many people were in town on the same weekend. And that Len agreed to stop by. It was sort of spontaneous but worth every moment. Shelley was incredibly generous with her time and took us on all sorts of walking tours including the Andrew Borden Death Walk. It really did revise in my mind the image I had of his walk. you have to use your imagination to some extent -- the storefront construction site where Andrew picked up the lock is now an Army and Navy store, and the building where he got a shave from his barber is now a modern office block...and of course the main part of town where town Hall was is now a highway overpass...but still it was very eye opening and made Andrew's death walk very vivid in my imagination. I'm sorry that Angel arrived too late for that one, but she joined us for the tour of the Highlands and the Cemetary.

As for the woman chopping me up in the photo...well, I'm quite certain no one was there when the photo was taken (play Twilight Zone theme music here!)

[Angel]

There were two things that struck me (no pun intended) right away. First, I expected the house to be long and narrow, but it really wasn't. The rooms were a decent size. The other thing was that I had thought someone could have sneaked into the room where Abby was, unnoticed, but, unless she was kneeling behind the bed, it seems as though she would have seen someone come in, because the door is placed more in the middle of the wall. If one is standing, one would see someone come in right away- and if one was facing away from the door, the mirror would pick up the reflection of the person entering the room.

[Richard]

That's right, I never thought that Abby was taken by surprise. The only way she could have was if she were on the other side of the bed away from the door and kneeling.

Here's more photos. First a picture of me on the couch holding up Weird US. I'm submitting this photo to Weird NJ and the advance word from the editor was that he would love to publish it, but he hasn't seen it yet. I'll keep you guys informed.

[Richard]

Another Weird US shot

[Richard]

Here's a real treat:

This is the parking lot where the house on Ferry Street once stood. The handicapped spot to the bottom right is where the Borden house where Lizzie was born once stood. There is nothing there to commemorate the spot.

[Richard]

Here's a close up of the handicapped parking spot looking South towards the River.

[Harry]

Thanks for the photos, Richard. Good luck in getting your photo published.

I haven't been to Ferry St. yet. Maybe on the next trip.

[Richard]

Here's a real treat from the Andrew Borden Death Walk we did with Shelley. As Shelley was showing us the building that used to be the Union Savings Bank, the last bank that Andrew Borden visited right before his murder, we noticed that it was an office being used by the United Way. We went in and introduced ourselves to the receptionist and explained to her this was the penultimate stop made by AJB right before his death. She was laughingly surprised to hear this and introduced us to her manager who said, "Why don't I show you guys the vault!" So we went down into the basement and checked out the vault. It's not being used and is left wide open. Although Andrew may not have gone down into the basement vaults on August 4, 1892, he certainly kept some of his money there. The first picture shows Shelley and the United Way Manager in the corridor outside the vault. Enjoy.

[Richard]

Here's the door to the vault...

[Richard]

And the interior...These walls once held Andrew's money.

[SteveS.]

Awesome photos Richard. I like your photographic perspective on things. I have been to the B & B many times but have yet to stay overnight, but I can say I slept in a house near Lizzie's on Ferry St. A friend of mine used to live at the corner of Ferry and Mullberry St's. and I stayed overnight there. I knew the location of the Bordens Ferry St. house even back then and I used to always imagine what it was like when the Bordens lived there.

[Kat]

Great pics! Unique perspective, too! Thanks!

Mr. Hart at the preliminary hearing had this to say:
Page 203

ABRAM G. HART.

Q. (By Mr. Knowlton.) Abram G. Hart is your name?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You are the Treasurer of some Bank?
A. Yes sir of the Union Savings Bank.
Q. Where is that located?
A. No. 3 Market Square, as it is termed, the main street between what used to be the Market, now City Hall, and Bedford Street.
Q. Did you know Andrew J. Borden?
A. I knew him well for forty years.
Q. Was he associated with you in business?
A. He was President of the Bank during the year and a half that I have been its Treasurer, and sometime previous, two or three years.
Q. Did you see him on the morning of the day he was found dead?
A. I did.
Q. When did you see him?
A. In the bank at half past nine, as nigh as I can fix it. I did not look at the clock, but have reasons to judge, I think correctly, that was about the time.
Q. Did he come in when you were there, or did you come in and find him there?
A. He came in while I was there.
Q. How long did he remain there?
A. I should think about five minutes, not over that.
. . . .
204
Q. That is the last time you saw him?
A. Yes sir, he was in after that, but I was out. I know he was in, by the word that came to me.
______

JOHN T. BURRELL


Q. (Mr. Knowlton.) John T. Burrell is your name?
A. It is.
Q. What is your place of business?
A. I am cashier of the National Union Bank.
Q. Was Mr. Borden connected with that Bank in any way?
A. He was a stockholder, and a depositor.
Q. Did you see him on the day of the murder?
A. I did.
Q. What time of day did you see him?
A. I have no means of fixing the time very accurately; it was during the first business hour of the day, probably between quarter past nine and quarter to ten; but I would not swear to that.
Q. How long did he remain in the bank?
A. I think from five to ten minutes.
Q. Did he transact any business?
A. I was busy with my business, I noticed him talking with two gentlemen and Mr. Hart in front of my end of the room.
Q. It was in the same building that Mr. Hart is?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That is the time Mr. Hart saw him?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was Mr. Hart there when he came in?
A. I wont be sure that he was there when he came in, he was there during the time Mr. Borden was there.
Q. That is all the time you saw him in there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Do you remember, or do you not remember, that he came back again afterwards to go to Mr. Hart’s room, but Mr. Hart was not there?
A. I am not sure I was there at that time; I only know that by hearsay.
_______

Page 205

EVERETT COOK

Q. (By Mr. Knowlton.) What is your name?
A. Everett Cook.
Q. What is your business?
A. Cashier of the First National Bank.
Q. You were such on the 4th of August?
A. Yes sir.
.......
Q. Did you see him on the day of the murder?
A. I did.
Q. When did you see him?
A. At the First National Bank building.
Q. When?
A. On that morning somewhere from quarter to ten to five minutes to ten. I should say he entered the bank at quarter of ten and went away at five minutes of ten.
.....
Q. He stayed how long?
A. About ten minutes.
Q. What time did he go out?
A. About five minutes of ten.
____________

Jonathan Clegg
Q. Did you see him that day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. I first saw him opposite my store in front of Shove and Fisher’s. I had occasion to see him that morning, I wanted to see him. I called him across the street into my store to make arrangements for the store that I had taken of him. I had considerable talk with him. It would
[Page 213]
be 20 minutes past ten when I called him in; it would be nine minutes; I know he left my store, 6 No. Main street at exactly 29 minutes past.
Q. Is that store in the Borden Block?
A. No Sir, Richardson Block.
Q. Opposite Borden Block?
A. No Sir, next to Bennett’s Drug store.
Q. Which way did he go when he left your store?
A. He went south.
Q. It was just 29 minutes past when he left your store?
A. Just.
_________

Joseph Shortsleeves

Q. Did you see which way he went when he left your place? [Clegg's new store]
A. I could not swear which way he went, but he disappeared in a very short minute, but he was heading towards So. Main, towards Spring street.
[Page 231]
Q. What time was that?
A. It was between half past ten and quarter to eleven.
Q. After half past ten?
A. Yes sir after half past ten.

___________

Andrew was at the Union Savings Bank/ National Union Bank, 9:30 to 9:35, then at the First National Bank at 9:45 am. to 9:55 a.m.
Hart says Andrew came back to his bank but only thru *word* that came to him. Burrell says the same thing when asked if Andrew returned, calling it "hearsay." Then there is missing time and then Andrew was at the store of Clegg at 10:20 to 10:29 a.m. Shortsleeves says Andrew left him after 10:30.

[Richard]

Thanks Kat.

I have pictures of the building that is on the sopt where Mr. Borden stopped to talk to Mr. Clegg. And I have a picture of the Army Navy Store that is on the spot where Mr. Shortsleeves was working that morning. I'll post those after I get my digital camera out of the store.

All knowledge and locales etc. I have by way of taking the walking tour with Shelley. She in turned learned it all from Len.

[mbhenty]

If you look at Kat's post of the testimony above you will notice that Union Savings Bank was at number 3 North Main Street, also known as 3 Market Square, since the building was at the corner of both at the time. Market Square no longer exists.

That Bank still sits there today. It is known as Number 4 South Main Street. After a number of changes, which include the changing of street numbers in the late 1800s and RT 195 rearranging city streets in the 1960s, Union Savings Bank has been known by several addresses, but has sat at the same location for over 100 years-----never No. 84 North Main Street----at least not in 1892.

Not sure where everyone visited that day?

Number 84 North Main Street, where the United Way is located today, is also known as number 80 North Main Street. (Both addresses should be in the same building) If this is the building we are talking about in an earlier post, than we are talking about of the building which stands on the corner of North Main and Bank Street, just south of the public library.

When I was a little boy, and in Lizzies day back in the 20s, this was known as the B.M.C. Durfee bank. The building is still owned by the Durfee family today.

The building (80/84 North Main Street) has been used by several different concerns, including the Fall River Public Library, since the bank mereged with another bank and moved its business elsewhere in the late 70s early 80s. (?)

I am not sure which Bank was visited on that day or whether the address number "84" is just a typo?

The Union Savings bank Building is still around today and at the same location, but not at 84 North Main Street..........

[Richard]

We were in the building that houses the United Way. Shelley said it was the last bank visited by Borden. I got the name Union Savings Bank from the map in The Borden Tragedy by Rick Geary.

Shelley, do you think you can clear this up?

[mbhenty]

As in Lizzie's time, when she lived at Maplecroft, as in my time, when I grew up on Pine street as a child two blocks away, as in Andrew Borden's time, the B.M.C Durfee Bank has stood on the corner of Bank and North Main at number 80. In Andrew's time it was known as the First National Bank Building and the number was 58 North main Street.

This was before the big number change in Fall River. It was later known National as No. 80 North Main Street. Not sure where number 84 can be. There is no number 84 unless it is for the side door on the front of the building just north of the main entrance. This door would lead to the office space on the upper floors. After number 80 is the public library at number 104

I had accounts with the Fall River National Bank when I was a kid. Also back in 1965 I would sit in front of the B.M.C. Durfee Bank at 80 North Main Street where I would meet up with a friend who worked there. And, I have worked through out number 80 when I was with a wire company.

[Richard]

The First National Bank is on the East side of North Main in the Geary Book. The United Way office which Shelley indicated was the location of the last bank Andrew visited is on Geary's map on the west side of the street and labeled Union Savings Bank. Geary doesn't give any addresses.

But I also notice he puts the barber shop across the street from the AJB Building whereas Shelley pointed out an upper story on the building NEXT to the AJB Building as where Andrew got a shave. So the graphic in the Geary book may be wrong.

Hmmm...

[mbhenty]

There were two National banks. One was the First National Bank, where SHELLEY visited and the other was the National Union Bank at the same location as the Union Savings bank. Borden was President of the Union Savings Bank.

Can't go by Geary's map. He got it wrong...........he didn't live in Fall River.

As for the correct information on Andrew's last walk and the location of the banks you must consult a Fall River guy. There are a couple???? See Rebello's Past and Present for one.

[Richard]

Yeah I was trying to reconcile what Shelley told me, which is what Len told her, with the Geary map. Didn't think it would be inaccurate.

This much is certain: I was in the United Way Offices on North Main and Shelley said it was the last bank Andrew visited.

[SteveS.]

union savings bank is on the EAST side of Main St. as shown in this fire photo from 1928 and it still stands in the same spot as shown in this circa early 1960's photo and still stands in the same spot on the north side of city hall today.

[Shelley]

Hi Richard. I talked to Len last night about the banks. The Citizen's Union Bank was the first bank we visited. It is not the original building- that was lost in the big fire. The old address was 3 Market Place. There were TWO banks in that building in 1892 which Andrew visited. Then we went to that bank on the corner of Bank and North Main which was the last bank Andrew visited. It was the First National , yes, and ALSO the Durfee Safety Deposit and Trust in the same building. That part was correct which the United Way man told us. He did not tell us the whole story, however. I always use the Rebello map and "Andrew's Last Walk" when I take people out on the city tour. I think the vaults which we saw were those of the Durfee Safety Deposit and Trust. That was fun! I hope your pix came out. Come to think of it, we were there this time LAST Monday!

[mbhenty]

Though I am somewhat familiar with Andrew Borden's last walk, I would need to consult Rebello's little map to make certain. Of that I will admit, I am not familiar with where Andrew went first in visiting the banks. But in the same breath, I would not consult a comic book to do my research. Geary placed all 3 banks on the wrong blocks. But, in all respect to Mr Geary, his illustratioln is a cartoon, though he appears to be accurate. He was close, but no cigar.

My original disputation was NOT with Andrew Borden's walk, FIRST or LAST.

To set the record straight, to which I will speak of this no more for I LOVE TO KICK A DEAD HORSE, was that the building on the corner of BANK and NORTH MAIN was NOT the UNION SAVINGS BANK. It was declared above that the Union Savings Bank was at 84 North Main, and it was not. Which bank Borden went to first or last was not my issue.

I am versed in Fall Rive, having lived here all my life and being a resolute and serious collector of books about Fall River and its history; much more than in the Borden Case. Though I am facinated by the Borden murders, most historians, those who grew up in Fall River, resent that "Lizzie Lore" has placed a face on this city up and above the real history behind what made Fall River great in its time. Even Lizzie would agree on that one.


If Lizzie had committed her murders in some other state or city I would probably have no interest what-so-ever in the Borden case or have met some of the wonderful people that grace this site. My interest in Lizzie Borden is "Fall River," not Lizzie Borden in particular------thus the bank issue flare up.

Thanks for the Photos SteveS. Great comparison between the two photos. One can see the old and new buildings (Citizen Savings) by the drastic change in its facade.

[SteveS.]

You are very welcome mbhenty. As a born and raised Fall Riveritte myself I am with you in my love of Fall River and its rich history....all of it's history not just the Lizzie Borden era. I posted the pics of the bank to help agree with what you were saying about the location. I just wish I could have done it in a better way. Maybe we Fall Riverittes need to speak up a little more when we see little indescrapancies like this one to help set the record straight. What may seem like a simple fact of no consequence can sometimes mean a world of difference to the researcher. I have sat here myself and let alot of things slide by because I don't have any more proof then the fact that I was born and raised there and so where my parents. Some of what I know is fact and some is hearsay like what my parents or grandparents have told me. Take Kats funny little odd building that was being questioned as an ice house. I was always told as a child that it WAS an ice house......a small ice storage facility used for the local deliveries in the neighborhood...kind of like a local ice distribution center for ice from the big ice houses that were set up on the north side of north Wattuppa pond. Since I can't back it up with fact I have steered clear of the issue but maybe we...as Fall Riverittes...can add this kind of passed on information to be taken by researchers of the Borden case to do with as they please.

[SteveS.]

God that last post made me sound like Victoria Lincoln. That was not my intention and I do appologise.

[Allen]

God that last post made me sound like Victoria Lincoln. That was not my intention and I do appologise.

Well I can speak for myself only, but I certainly do not take any offense at either your post, or Lincoln's book. I for one am glad that you Fall Riverites care enough about the history of your home town to speak up and make sure everyone gets their facts straight concerning things like this. It also goes toward making sure there are no more errors which are going to be passed along down the line. I hope you will continue to care as much in the future and by all means..speak out! That's my opinion on the matter. Hats off to you.

[Richard]

Thanks everyone for clearing this up. I wasn't disputing mbhenty's correction, I was only explaining HOW I made the mistake in the first place. Sorry for the confusion. I will always concede to people who know the streets and history since I am very much a beginner. My last trip to Fall River was a revelation and I learned an enormous amount that was quite humbling.

Perhaps I'll write to Geary and his publisher and point out the inaccuracy in the map.

Shelley, I'm also assuming Geary was wrong about the location of the barber shop. He puts it on the East side of South Main instead of on the West side next to the AJB building as you pointed out.

And Shelley the Bank Vault pictures I took are on page 1 on this thread

[Shelley]

I just pointed out the location of the barber shop as it is listed in Rebello's book and map. Seems logical and convenient for Andrew too. I forgot to show you the location of Gorman's wallpaper and paint store- next time!

[mbhenty]

Oh yes, no apology needed RICHARD. To bad the subject did not come up at the house when you, LEN, SHELLEY and MBHENTY, along with all the Lizzie scholars held their pow-wow at 92. The forum is not the place to hash out somethings at sometimes.

It can be very confusing when it comes to the Banks of Fall River in Lizzie/Andrew's day. I dare say even LEN REBELLO may have got it wrong......, (though I may be walking out on a dry rot plank over a den o lions to say so)

Please allow me to expound. And oh yes, this may add more confusion. So you ready SHELLEY?

The Citizens National bank building was replaced due to the great fire. The building stands right on the corner of Bedford and North Main Street. This at that time, as today, was known as the Citizen Savings Bank. I'm not sure if that's where all you guys visited but I am pretty sure that that was not the Union Savings Bank or the National Bank building. (REBELLO calls it the National Bank, but perhaps the word "Union" was left out intentionally by Mr. Rebello.)

As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure that there is no bank called the "National Bank......"

Fall River at the time had many National Banks, such as: FIRST NATIONAL BANK, SECOND NATIONAL BANK, FALL RIVER NATIONAL BANK, METACOMET NATIONAL BANK, and several others, including the NATIONAL UNION BANK.

Now the NATIONAL UNION BANK is probably the bank Mr. Rebello calls the NATIONAL BANK. But I am almost certain that it was not in the CITIZENS SAVINGS BANK building.

The CITIZENS building was known as number one (1) North Main. The Union Savings Bank was the smaller building closer to the city hall. It was known as standing at Market Square, or number three (3) North Main Street. In the same building was the NATIONAL UNION BANK. (National Bank?) (See the photos above posted by SteveS)

As I mentioned before, I don't pretend to know everything there is to know about Andrew Borden and his banks.. There were many Andrew Bordens in Fall River in 1892. As a matter of fact the number of Andrew Bordens was around 5 or so, with 2 or 3 of them being Andrew "J" Borden.

Example: in 1892 the board of directors of the B.M.C. Durfee Bank had two Andrews on its board; one Andrew Borden, the other Andrew J. Borden. At this time I would need to do a study to find out which Banks Andrew J Borden, Lizzie's father, was affiliated with. This could be tricky since there was other Andrew Bordens. But I would say that most Andrew J Bordens named to banks were in fact Lizzie's father.

(also, the First National Bank at the time shows an Andrew Borden on its board. Is this Andrew J. ? When He was at the First National Bank building was he there for the First National or B.M.C. Durfee. Is the Andrew Borden on its board Lizzie's father? Who is the Andrew Borden on the board of the B.M.C Durfee Bank which had 2 Andrews, one being a J.

Believe me, I don't pretend to know..........

[Allen]

Hi Richard. I talked to Len last night about the banks. The Citizen's Union Bank was the first bank we visited. It is not the original building- that was lost in the big fire. The old address was 3 Market Place. There were TWO banks in that building in 1892 which Andrew visited. Then we went to that bank on the corner of Bank and North Main which was the last bank Andrew visited. It was the First National , yes, and ALSO the Durfee Safety Deposit and Trust in the same building. That part was correct which the United Way man told us. He did not tell us the whole story, however. I always use the Rebello map and "Andrew's Last Walk" when I take people out on the city tour. I think the vaults which we saw were those of the Durfee Safety Deposit and Trust. That was fun! I hope your pix came out. Come to think of it, we were there this time LAST Monday!

I have to admit that I became a little disoriented when the names of the different banks all began to sound so similar. So in order to try and get a handle on the banks for myself I went to the Keeley Library site and looked up a few things there. Anybody have any thoughts on all this? Because I have to admit that even after reading all of these descriptions I'm still a little confused.

This information can be found under the heading:

History of Fall River / prepared under the direction of a committee of prominent citizens appointed by His Honor Mayor John T. Coughlin by Henry M. Fenner, A. B., assisted by Benjamin Buffinton. -- New York : F. T. Smiley Publishing Co., 1906.
364 p. : ill., ports. ; 28 cm.



And the chapter:


Chapter XII. Banks and Banking: Honorable and Prosperous Career of the Institutions, With Long Terms of Service. The History of Each, p. 95-101. (1,667K)


http://www.sailsinc.org/durfee/fulltext.htm


The First National Bank

"It's first office was at the southwest corner of Main and Central streets, from which it removed to it's present building in May, 1888. It is a United States depository."


The National Union Bank

"It erected the brick building on the corner of South Main and Rodman streets in 1837, and there carried on business till 1862, when the change in state line brought it in under Massachusetts laws and removed it to the present City Hall building.It became The National Union Bank in 1865, and removed to No. 3 Main Street, where it occupied the Union Savings Bank building, which was torn down and a new one erected by the Union Savings Bank in 1897."


The Union Savings Bank

" The Union Savings Bank was incorporated in 1869 and began business in May of that year in the southwest corner of the City Hall, or Market Building, removing in 1872 to property it had purchased on Main street, where it erected it's current building in 1897."

The Citizen's Saving's Bank

"It was organized on November 15, 1851, with Joseph Osborn president, Charles F. Searle secretary and William H. Brackett treasurer. It began business on December 1 of that year in the office of the Fall River Union Bank, and in June 1854, was removed to the latters building at the corner of South Main and Rodman streets. The change in the boundary line in 1862 brought it into Massachusetts, and an enabling act was secured from the Legislature permitting it to do business in this state. It then took it's present name and was removed with the Pocasset Bank to the northwest corner of what is now city hall. In January, 1873, it occupied it's present quarters in the Pocasset National Bank building."


The Fall River National Bank

"The Bank was organized as a national institution in 1864. It's first building was erected of brick, on the corner of Main and Bank streets, in 1826. This was burned in the fire of 1843, and soon afterwards rebuilt. The present building was erected in 1892."

The Pocasset National Bank

"The Pocasset National Bank was incorporated in Rhode Island in May, 1854, with Moses Baker, Oliver Chase and Joseph Osborn named as incorporators, and began business at the corner of South Main and Rodman streets, removing to the present City Hall Building when the boundary line was changed in 1862. It became a national bank in 1865, and in 1868 purchased the lot at the southeast corner of Main and Bedford streets, on which, in 1872, it erected a handsome granite building."

[Allen]

As an aside under the history of the Union Savings Bank:

"Benjamin Covel was elected president May 26, 1886. Mr. Covel resigned in November, 1888, and Andrew J. Borden was chosen president. Mr. Borden died in August, 1892, and Jerome C. Borden was chosen president, which office he still holds."

[Shelley]

Seems actually to me that we are all in accord. The building at the corner of North Main and Bank St., which was until recently the AG Edwards business with #80-84 written on it as an address, was the old First National and Durfee Safety and Deposit Trust. This is now United Way. This is the original building, and the last bank where Andrew stopped, his furthest point north that morning before turning to go home.

#3 Market Square is now the current site of Citizen's Union Bank. I have 4 South Main as the new address now. The original building burned in the big 1928 fire and this new building, built on the site of the old bank which housed TWO banking establishments back in 1892, was the stop Andrew made after his stop at the post office. Are we all on the same page with this? Mostly people just want to retrace the distance and get a feeling for the timing, but I never knowingly give out wrong information. The map in Rebello shows two businesses in that 3 Market Square building in 1892, a wall goes down the center inside of the building which I assume were the two banks.

[mbhenty]

Excellent research Allen: You see, with all the "National Banks" and all the "Andrew Bordens" around in 1892 it can get a little confusing, and I must add, even to tutored scholars.

When Andrew Borden appears in print it usually appears as Andrew "J" Borden.

Now on the Union Savings Bank promo on my post above it displays Andrew as Andrew J. The same is true about the ad for the B.M.C. Durfee bank in 1892. Also on that Durfee bank ad is another Andrew Borden, with no "J".

Now Andrew was supposedly on the board of the First National Bank. (His last stop on his last walk) OR IS THAT OUR ANDREW BORDEN////???

On the ad for the First National Bank in 1892 the Borden listed does not use the "J" initial..... (?)

Again, I know where these banks were but not who was on them, at least not off the tip of my cerebrum, though I knew Jerome Borden was vice pres. of the Union Savings thus next in line to be Pres. if something should happen to Andrew J.

Another interesting tid-bid. Jerome Borden lived on rock street about a block away from Andrew Borden who owned the MOORINGS, a beautiful victorian on rock just over 2 block away from Lizzie Borden at MAPLECORFT.

[mbhenty]

Not to add any more confusion, but to add some more confusion....................

Sorry Shelley, I am not on the same page.

The Citizen Savings Bank in 1892 was a separate building than the Union Savings Bank. Though they may look like the same building to many, they are built sharing the same north/south wall but in 1892 were separate buildings.

The Union Savings Bank, along with the National Union Savings bank were at 3 North Main. They liked to be known as being at "MARKET SQUARE."

The Citizen Savings Bank was at address number 1 North Main Street, and at the time liked to be known as being on the corner of Bedford and Main. Most times it never gave its address number. (number 1 NM) It liked to be known as being on the corner of Bedford, while the Union Savings liked to advertise that it was at Market Square.

So I would need to conclude that Borden was not a member or did he keep his money in that corner building....

[mbhenty]

In looking over your post SHELLEY, please be assured that I know you never knowingly try to dish out the wrong information.

I assure you that what I know about Shelley D., if she got it wrong she would be the first to let you know, for sure, for sure.

My little debate is to set the record straight. If I am wrong then so be it. Someone shows me the facts and I have no problem what-so-ever admitting my error.

So please, this is not to put you on the spot, and if you can prove me wrong then please do so-------believe me, I am the one who will benefit in the end. After all if I am wrong it would grieve me to think I am going around spreading misnomers.

But, no, no, I'm right.

[Shelley]

I think I see where we are: I am calling that double bank by its current name, The Citizen's Union Bank (in the new post -1928 edifice), and old references to 3 Market Place which you are calling 3 North Main are the same space. You are saying that the Union Bank, and the Citizen's Bank were two separate banks in 1892, and I agree-and they share the n/s wall- yes, I agree there too. So I think it is using the contemporary name which is the issue of confusion- Ah, what's in a name? A bank by any other name is not the same bank- only in the same location. (Shakespeare is moaning in his grave) Yes, I think we are on the same page at last. And yes, I am with you on the final bank's location and names. Our friend at the United Way only mentioned the Durfee S&D Trust, and did not know about the First National.

[Shelley]

I think I see where we are: I am calling that double bank by its current name, The Citizen's Union Bank (in the new post -1928 edifice), and old references to 3 Market Place which you are calling 3 North Main are the same space. You are saying that the Union Bank, and the Citizen's Bank were two separate banks in 1892, and I agree-and they share the n/s wall- yes, I agree there too. So I think it is using the contemporary name which is the issue of confusion- Ah, what's in a name? A bank by any other name is not the same bank- only in the same location. (Shakespeare is moaning in his grave) Yes, I think we are on the same page at last. And yes, I am with you on the final bank's location and names. Our friend at the United Way only mentioned the Durfee S&D Trust, and did not know about the First National. Now we need to find out if Andrew had to go outside to enter the second bank or was there a door inside between

[Shelley]

Wow- this was a triple post. My kids keep telling me how I repeat myself.....

[mbhenty]

Yes, happy we are all on the same page then.........

Thus in reinforcing my understanding and to bring this discussion to a head I will add.

The Citizens Savings Bank and the Union Savings Bank were NOT ONLY different banks but different buildings, as separate as if they were on opposite ends of town back in 1892.

Number "One" North Main and number "3" North Main were separate buildings, one business having nothing to do with the other. Andrew Borden was President of Union Savings at number 3 north Main.

Andrew Borden had nothing to do with the Citizen Savings bank which sat on the corner of North Main and Bedford in 1892.

The vaults in the Citizen Savings Bank building on the corner of North Main and Bedford was not where Borden kept his money. In fact not only was number 1 and number 3 different banks, they were different buildings. The chance that there was egress between the two buildings in 1892 is slim to none.

Today both buildings are one and the entire complex greatly expanded. The buildings at number one and number three is all one floor space today. But if one is pointing out where Borden kept his money I think it is vital to make the distinction and point out these facts. If one stands across the street from the city hall on South Main Street, one can point out that Borden kept his money on the right not the left. If you enter a vault in the portion of the building on the left (cor. Bedford) it is the wrong vault. I know, I know, now I'm being picky

Today the Citizens bank is known as the Citizens Union Savings Bank and its address is number 4 South Main.

[mbhenty]

Oh yes, when Borden made his last bank visit at the First National bank he was visiting his money in the B.M.C Durfee where he was on the board. He could have had money in the First National. He could have had money in every bank in town. I don't know.

Everett Cook worked for the First National Bank and testified that he saw Andrew Borden, but it does not mean he had business with that bank, and probably did not. I don't know. It does not list anywhere that in 1892 Borden had any business with the First National Bank. But he was on the board of the B.M.C Durfee, along with another Andrew Borden.

Did the First National Bank and B.M.C. Durfee share the same vault? Was there more than one vault? Is that where Borden kept his money? In most cases, who knows, and in others who cares. Probably only me.

[Shelley]

There were two vaults in the basement. One is the empty one with the massive door Richard has posted and one was where United Way houses its records. Our United Way friend said the Durfee was on the street level- original massive wooden columns still there. Drop in and see him MB- he loves to point out things.,