Lizzie stoned and or addicted?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:48 am

I was an srticle posted on the website "The Countess" called: "Lizzie Borden, did she or didn't she?". One of the statements in the article states,
"LIzzie was stoned on morphine and another drug which escapes me at the moment of the murders and during the trial."

I know she was given something to calm her nerves at the trial, but I didn't know she took anything,espeically morphine before this whole situation. Does anyone know about this?

I mean, it could explain why she couldn't remember exactly what she was doing at the time of the murders, and couldn't get her stories straight.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:28 am

Dr. Bowen was her physician and he prescribed bromo-caffeine as a sedative the day of the murders, and sulfate of morphine in 1/8 grain, later 1/4 grain dosages thereafter. If Dr. Bowen had prescribed morphine at an earlier date and known she was taking it, he would not have needed to prescribe it after the murders, nor would he have prescribed bromo-caffeine at all. I doubt that Lizzie was under the influence at the time of the murders.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:34 am

At first Dr. Bowen gave her bromo-caffeine. Then an eighth of a grain of sulfate of morphine, which he soon doubled and she was under the influence of the morphine at the inquest. Have you ever taken morphine? If it's given to you in an injection, God that stuff is strong! I hated it. It was like being extremely drunk and you just wanna sleep. It's hard to walk even. It's quite a ride.

You do get used to it, tho. In pill form, the first one you take can knock you for a loop (I'm referring to morphine based medication now), but in a day or three you get used to it and can pretty much go about your normal stuff. I would never drive taking it, tho.

And no, I don't need to be on "Intervention". All was medicinal. I'll tell you, I wouldn't get on any witness stand taking that stuff.

Lizzie did make her appearance at the Inquest, which must have meant she was not given all that much. How much is a quarter of a grain?

The bromo-caffeine I think is like our alka-seltzer. For 'nervous headache' and probably to calm her stomach, I would think.

I wanna say that Dr. Bowen gave her morphine injections all they way thru August 4th to her acquittal. But Kat just posted something on his testimony. I gotta go, otherwise I'd look it up. She may have had another doctor giving it to her in Taunton and/or New Bedford. Oh, I'm just babbling. "I want to know the truth."

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:45 am

I had to edit my original post for correct dosages (grains, not grams), sorry. 1/8 grain=.008 grams, 1/4 grain=.016 grams.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:06 am

Thanks, Yooper. But I think it was at first an eighth of a grain and then doubled to a quarter.

I agree, Yooper. I think he said he started giving it to her after the murders.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:13 am

I axe-identally wrote "gram" in my first post and had to edit it to 'grain'.

Yooper, can you give me another measurement for .016 of a gram? How does this compare to, like, a teaspoon?

Sorry, I never learned the metric system and cannot envision a gram. My husband told me several years ago, and tho I've forgotten his response, I think it was pretty teensy.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:37 am

Gram is a measurement of mass, teaspoon is a measure of volume, so it is difficult to make a comparison based upon the units. I'll see if I can find a valid comparison somewhere, though.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:40 am

Augusta, it would be very difficult to translate a grain to a teaspoon, because a teaspoon measures volume and a grain measures weight.

1 grain equals 0.002285 ounces.

1 grain equals 64.79 milligrams.

It is an extremely minute amount.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:26 pm

Thanks, Yooper and Fairhaven Guy. Was this morphine in liquid form? Or in some solid, granule-like form? I never did read which. I only saw Emma give her an injection of liquid in the movie.

I found nothing about the morphine in Dr. Bowen's testimony in the Inquest or the Preliminary Hearing. There is testimony in the trial, tho.
Some of it was enlightening. Melvin O Adams questions him on the stand.

Between 1 and 2 pm, on the afternoon of August 4th, Alice Russell got Dr. Bowen and he went up to Lizzie's room. "I gave a preparation called bromo caffeine," he tells the court. It was "for quieting nervous excitement and headache."

"I left a second dose to be repeated in about an hour."
He is asked: "Did you subsequently give other medicines of that kind that day?" "Yes, sir," he says.

Q: In what way?
A: In the same doses
Q: Did you carry some bromo caffeine over there?
A: I carried some in a bottle to be taken.
Q: That was Thursday night. Did you have occasion to prescribe for her on account of this medical distress and nervous excitement after that?
A: Yes, sir.
........
Q: I understand you to say on Friday you directed that the bromo caffeine be given?
A: No, sir, Thursday.
Q: Not on Friday. You prescribed a second dose and took over from your office a bottle of it with directions how to be taken. I wish to know if, after that, you had occasion to prescribe for her an account of this mental distress and nervous excitement?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When was it?
A: Friday.
Q: The next day?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Was the prescription or medicine the same as the other?
A: It was different.
Q: What was it?
A: Sulphate of morphine.
Q: Well, what is commonly called morphine?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You directed morphine to be taken?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: In what doses?
A: One-eighth of a grain.
Q: When?
A: Friday night, at bed-time.
Q: The next day you changed that?
A: I did not change the medicine, but doubled the dose.
Q: That was on Saturday?
A: On Saturday.
Q: Did you continue the dose on Sunday?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you continue it Monday?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And on Tuesday?
A: Yes, sir.
........
Q: I ask you about the morphine that you were giving her and you tell me on Friday you gave one-eighth of a grain, which is the ordinary dose. I understand, mild dose, and on Saturday you doubled it, you gave it, sent it, and she had it on Monday and Tuesday, and how long did she continue to have that?
A: She continued to have that all the time she was in the station house.
Q: After her arrest, was it not?
A: And before.
Q: In other words she had it all the time up to the time of her arrest, the hearing and while in the station house?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: I suppose physicians well understand the effect of morphine on the mind and on the recollection, don't they?
A: Supposed to, yes, sir.
Q: Is there any question about it?
A: No, sir.
Q: Do you know whether she had ever had occasion before to have morphine prescribed for her, as far as you know?
A: I don't remember that she had.
Q: Does not morphine given in double doses to allay mental distress and nervous excitement somewhat effect the memory and change and alter the view of things and give people hallucinations?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: There is no doubt about it, is there?
A: No, sir.
..............................
Moody re-directs
Q: How many times did you personally see her take the medication?
A: Not more than twice, I think.
Q: When were those two times?
A: Between one and two in the afternoon, of Thursday.
Q: And that was bromo caffeine?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Is bromo caffeine a medicine which has a tendency to create hallucinations a week or so after it has been taken?
A: No, sir.
***************************

SO this leaves me with some questions and some good answers. Bowen only gave her bromo caffeine on Thursday. He left a second dose to be taken in about an hour. And he carried some in a bottle over to Lizzie Thursday night.

The morphine started on Friday. She was directed to take it at bedtime. On Saturday, he doubled the dose. As for how long she was given it, Bowen says, "She continued to have that all the time she was in the station house."

Hmm ... The word 'injection' is never used. Bowen only actually saw her take the bromo caffeine. He never saw her take the morphine. (I remember Kat bringing that out earlier. Personally, I think she took it.) And he only tells us that she had it before and during all the time she was in the station house.

In the movie, Bowen says, "She's not stopped. She's still taking it."

"The station house", to me, means the jail in Fall River. Bowen never told if she was on it or not once she left for Taunton.

Was she still taking morphine all the way until her acquittal? She was still his patient. I would think he would at least inquire about that. I think he and his wife visited Lizzie while she was incarcerated. I think she had another doctor in Taunton/New Bedford, but Bowen was still in touch with her.

Well, I think that'd be pretty traumatic - going to jail for 10 months and facing the death penalty. Lizzie was a nervous type. Remember the letter she wrote to her neighbor about his bird?

There could be some info about her prison doctor and medicine in the newspaper articles that appeared when she was ill in prison. (Bronchitis?)

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:27 pm

I think Lizzie was stone sober when the crimes took place.

-1bigsteve (o:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:46 am

Dr. Paige was Lizzie's physician at Taunton.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:48 am

I think it's possible Lizzie was taking something at the time of the murders, if she did it, but more like Cocaine or some *speed* derivitive.
A lot of killers admit they took drugs or alcohol to lower their inhibitions before killing.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:21 am

Well, that would explain why she couldn't remember where she was at at the time of the murders, and why she kept changing her story.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:59 am

Was Lizzie resistant to the effects of morphine? Dr. Bowen started her on a 1/8 grain dose which apparently wasn't enough. The dosage was subsequently doubled to 1/4 grain. Does anyone know what a recommended dosage might be?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:13 am

That's a very good question because we read all over the place that Lizzie was *given a double dose of morphine.*
What we know is that the doctor doubled the dose- not necessarily a double dose.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:17 am

I was able to find a recommended adult dosage for sulphate of morphine, 10-30 milligrams. Based upon FairhavenGuy's conversion of 1 grain=64.79 milligrams, we have 1/8 grain=8.1 milligrams, and 1/4 grain=16.2 milligrams. I'm sure the 10-30 milligrams would be based in part upon body mass, so I imagine Dr. Bowen's dosages were within reason. The 1/8 grain dose seems a bit light.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:26 am

But, was Lizzie stoned when she committed the murders? She certainly didn't remember where she was at the time of the mudres. She kept changing her story.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:57 am

I think the reason she kept changing her story had nothing to do with drugs. She changed her story about being on the upstairs landing when her father came home because that was not a great place to be in the eyes of the police- only feet from Abby's corpse. I find Bridget's selective memory of that incident even more interesting-going from "I heard Lizzie laugh on the upstairs landing" to 10 months later "I don't remember where the girl was". Bridget was not on any drugs either. Also very interesting that Emma apparently required no morphine or drugs. After walking in on what Emma saw going on in the dining room and sitting room when she returned from Fairhaven Thursday afternoon, I would think she would be as "shook up" as Lizzie claimed to be. Then to have had to wash the gore off the wall paper- well, Emma was sure a cool head.

Unless Bowen actually saw Lizzie swallow the pills, it is hard to say just how much, if any morphine was in her system on any given day. Lizzie had said she was sick on Tuesday and Wednesday prior to the murder, but we have only her word for that. Nobody heard her vomiting through the walls. If she was so prostrate on Wednesday and never left the house all day- and declared she never went to Smith's- one would think she would have been delighted to have Bowen take a look at her when he came over to check on Abby. Instead, Lizzie scoots upstairs.

I think Alice Russell could have and should have been questioned about Lizzie's behavior and mental state in that house during Thursday night- Sunday morning- did she take meds, was she scatty, confused, vague, "out of it". I do not get the impression that she was.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:54 am

Here is a link to the page Snokkums posted:

http://trishwilson.typepad.com/blog/200 ... den_d.html

It's teeming with factual errors.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:55 am

snokkums @ Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:26 am wrote:But, was Lizzie stoned when she committed the murders? She certainly didn't remember where she was at the time of the mudres. She kept changing her story.

First off, I don't know for a fact that Lizzie committed the murders. If she was under the influence of some drug, then, while it explains the confusion about her actions, it also makes it more likely for her to have committed the murders. I guess I would want to know what she was taking and where she was getting it. Someone would have prescribed it or sold it to her. Changing her story isn't necessarily arbitrary confusion.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:56 am

Aren’t patent medicines also a possibility too, Shelley? I mean, those were the days when anything and everything could be mixed up and sold by anybody – and the only way to really know what was in some of the more common elixirs would have been (for instance) to send a sample of a certain something – whatever it might be – to Edward Stickney Wood and the boys at the Harvard chem. lab for analysis. To a degree we’re left at the mercy of the Borden medicine chest – beyond the scope of Bowen & Co. Drugs were or could be everywhere.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:03 pm

Good point Doug. Yes, patent meds were loaded with stuff- cocaine, belladona, and a lot of plain old alcohol. It was "that time of month" for Lizzie- maybe she might have been taking Lydia Pinkham's or something-but I have to wonder if any over the counter stuff could have produced homicidal urges and amnesia afterward. Surely her manner on the day of the murder towards the police was coherent and somewhat imperial. She seemed to me to have GREAT presence of mind, asking about Winward, assuring the police her dress closet and room had been locked, telling the ladies she was not about to faint and to stop loosening her blouse, etc. She does not hit me as one who is dopey, drugged, incoherent, out of it, or confused. Blaming meds for suspicious -sounding testimony later though, is a real good excuse for the glaring inconsistencies in her inquest statements. And she had the legal team smart enough to know just how to play that angle. Unfortunately this "Countess" at the link above is the ONLY person I ever read or heard saying Lizzie was stoned and on drugs BEFORE the murder. I see no source or proof for this statement, and chalk all of this up to the usual person with little knowledge of the case getting info wrong, then perpetuating it on the web in a chat room or blog. It causes no end of trouble and sadly THIS is the sort of stuff people remember and repeat. I hear it every single week at the house. If it is on the internet- well, gee, it must be the truth. Some of the wild tales which come out of the guests defy the imagination.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:06 pm

doug65oh @ Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:56 am wrote:Aren’t patent medicines also a possibility too, Shelley? I mean, those were the days when anything and everything could be mixed up and sold by anybody – and the only way to really know what was in some of the more common elixirs would have been (for instance) to send a sample of a certain something – whatever it might be – to Edward Stickney Wood and the boys at the Harvard chem. lab for analysis. To a degree we’re left at the mercy of the Borden medicine chest – beyond the scope of Bowen & Co. Drugs were or could be everywhere.

This is a possibility, wasn't laudanum commonly available at one time? This would have been an important point in the prosecution's case, but the police made no mention of finding evidence of narcotics in their searches.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:15 pm

It was, yes, Yooper - and may have been an over-the-counter item. That's the only part of the equation I'm not sure of. It wouldn't surprise me a bit though.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:30 pm

Belladonna contains atropine used in conventional medicine to dilate the pupils for eye examinations and as an anesthetic. In herbal medicine, deadly nightshade is mainly prescribed to relieve intestinal colic, to treat peptic ulcers and to relax distended organs, especially the stomach and intestine. Deadly nightshade is also used as an anaesthetic in conventional medicine.

Laudanum was a wildly popular drug during the Victorian era. It was an opium-based painkiller prescribed for everything from headaches to tuberculosis. Victorian nursemaids even fed the drug to cranky infants, often leading to the untimely deaths of their charges from overdose. Paragoric is probably the closest thing to it still available. It was also called "wine of opium" and widely used for menstrual cramping.

My dear ole Mother used to give me paragoric as a child for upset tummy. It is a far weaker form of opium, and is sometimes called "tincture of opium". It was nasty green stuff and tasted awful. Mother also rubbed it on the gums of my baby sister when she was teething.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:57 pm

Here is an advertising card I've always found slightly creepy.

This was an opium mix...looks like addicted tots clutching at the bottle.

Ick.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:28 pm

Oh! I collect Ayers memorabilia from advertising. Mr. Ayers was from Lowell. Massachusetts- headquarters for several HUGE patent medicine empires. There is a great book called The Sarsparilla Kings about these guys. Ayers also made healthful beverages, sarsparilla being the #1 favorite and best-seller. Ayers is buried, as is officer Medley, in Lowell cemetery. There is even a town named for him (Ayers)
This is on the back of the card

"Without doubt the discovery of America is Ayer’s Sarsaparilla...This is a compound concentrated extract composed of the Sarsaparilla-root of the tropics, Stillingia, Yellow Dock, Mandrake, and other roots held in high repute for their alterative, diuretic, tonic, and curative properties. An economical and reliable blood-purifying medicine."

In fact, this remedy was nothing more than a simple beverage of sweetened, herb-flavored water. It was dispensed as a "tonic" (still the general term for soda pop in certain areas of the country) but it was little different from the drink we now call root beer.

Dr. J.C. Ayer & Co., Lowell, Massachusetts

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:42 pm

Is it the FRHS that has a letter to Lizzie from a friend saying she would love to come to Fall River and have a rootbeer with Lizzie? One of those quotes for which I can never remember the source.

kfactor · Post by **kfactor** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:31 pm

Shelley @ Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:28 pm wrote:Oh! I collect Ayers memorabilia from advertising. Mr. Ayers was from Lowell. Massachusetts- headquarters for several HUGE patent medicine empires.

Cool! I collect C.I. Hood & Co. memorabilia, another Lowell sarsaparilla producer. I also have some Father John's Medicine (also Lowell) stuff.

I may be wrong, but I think the old Ayer's lab has been recently converted to condos (it's one of those patent medicine labs).

I'm sure many people were running around addicted to all sorts of things from those concoctions in the "Good Old days."

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:56 pm

snokkums @ Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:26 am wrote:But, was Lizzie stoned when she committed the murders? She certainly didn't remember where she was at the time of the mudres. She kept changing her story.

First of all, I agree I with Yooper, we don't know that Lizzie did commit the murders. However, I highly doubt Lizzie was stoned when the murders were committed. Did her story change because she couldn't remember where she was when the murders were committed, or did she keep changing her story to throw the authorities and everyone else off as to where she really was?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:21 pm

Tina-Kate @ Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:54 am wrote:Here is a link to the page Snokkums posted:

http://trishwilson.typepad.com/blog/200 ... den_d.html

It's teeming with factual errors.

Thank you, Tina-Kate!

I read the article, which was written by a person who goes by the name of Permalink, after visiting the Borden house in Fall River, MA. Permalink, did not indicate they were quoting anyone when making the statement of Lizzie was also stoned on morphine and another drug whose name escapes me at the moment before the murders and during the trial. It is insinuated that the information in this article was given by the tour guide at the B&B. (See paragraph four). However, it makes little difference if the information in this article came from the tour guide or Permalink; it is obvious that whoever made the statement doesn't have a clue in regards to the known facts of the Borden murders. The errors in this article, by far, outweigh the stated accurate facts of this case.

I not only read Permalink's article, I also read the comments. The very first sentence of the first poster, named ginmar, is this, "See my comment on the earlier post." Hmmm. So, out of curiosity, I went to the search section of this web site and typed in, Lizzie Borden. There were several links, but I did find the one that was previously posted by Permalink. Here is the link: http://trishwilson.typepad.com/blog/200 ... nderf.html

I also found this one, which was also by posted by Permalink: http://trishwilson.typepad.com/blog/200 ... ted_b.html
Note the last sentence: "Mondo Lizzie Borden said that I had the facts wrong about the case, and what I was told by the tourguide wasn't accurate. I'd like to know more about what had actually happened in that house. I still think she did it."

BTW: Did anyone notice the plug for, http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com in the link that Tina-Kate provided?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:30 am

If Lizzie was on dope and killed, I doubt it would be any narcotic- the kind that has a "soothing, numbing or soporific effect."
I'm alluding to cocaine that would speed up her thoughts and might lead to a temporary psychotic break. If she was addicted, the overkill would be explained, plus the paranoia. (The paranoia might have been the motivating factor in the killings).
Since we have read that Lizzie had bouts of sullenness where she might pass through the room without acknowledging anyone- which looks like a cold shoulder- this behaviour could really be her distancing herself so people don't notice her eyes are strange or her demeanor wasn't normal- hiding her altered mental state.
Thus she is not languid, she is *up*, when authorities come, and in possession of her faculties. Maybe Dr. Bowen was attemping to bring her down with his RX.

diana · Post by **diana** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:11 pm

twinsrwe @ Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:21 pm wrote:
BTW: Did anyone notice the plug for, http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com in the link that Tina-Kate provided?

And that the poster who gave the plug was a ghost from our past....?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:21 pm

Ah yes, Audrey. Actually when I went back to look at that link, I was bowled over by the "Countess'" blog focus- Sex Blogging, Erotica Writing, Sensuality, Good Food And Drink, And A Life Of Pleasure. I missed that the first time- did not have on my trifocals! Wow. Poor Lizzie might have been MORTIFIED to see her face on that site. I'm a little pink myself! Now, where are my smelling salts. . .

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:34 pm

How do you know "The Countess" is "Audrey"?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:41 pm

Oh no, the Countess is not Audrey- Audrey posted on the site, scroll down and look at the last post on that page. (Tina-Kate's link)

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:21 pm

Sorry- I can be so dense

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:25 pm

I reason I posted my comment was because I thought it was very cool that the content of this person's post was a highly complimentary plug for the Lizzie Borden Society forum.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:56 pm

Diana, Shelley, & Ellen - Please check your PM.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:12 am

Kat @ Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:30 am wrote:If Lizzie was on dope and killed, I doubt it would be any narcotic- the kind that has a "soothing, numbing or soporific effect."
I'm alluding to cocaine that would speed up her thoughts and might lead to a temporary psychotic break. If she was addicted, the overkill would be explained, plus the paranoia. (The paranoia might have been the motivating factor in the killings).
Since we have read that Lizzie had bouts of sullenness where she might pass through the room without acknowledging anyone- which looks like a cold shoulder- this behaviour could really be her distancing herself so people don't notice her eyes are strange or her demeanor wasn't normal- hiding her altered mental state.
Thus she is not languid, she is *up*, when authorities come, and in possession of her faculties. Maybe Dr. Bowen was attemping to bring her down with his RX.

You're thinking a stimulant rather than a sedative? That makes sense. I still have to wonder where she would have gotten the dope. Someone had to have provided it. If it was sold legally, someone might well remember selling it to her, perhaps several different individuals. If it was procured illegally, then the seller would probably keep quiet about it. Would a drug habit or addiction be common gossip in those days? Perhaps if it was recent enough it might not be common knowledge.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:34 am

How about mail-order?
Lizzie asked her father Thursday morning if there was any mail for her.
Maybe her *fix* didn't come.

For some reason- maybe too much TV?- I can envision a souped-up Lizzie killing, taking more dope in the interim, then killing again. To me it could account for the newly revived *fever pitch* it took to murder Andrew so horribly- and after a time lapse.

BTW: Thanks TK for the picture!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:43 am

BTW2:

Here's a link to Amazon for the book:
To Marry An English Lord.

I have it and have read it years ago- it's really good!

This link should take one to the book cover- and see the arrow to the right? You can page thru it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0894809 ... eader-link

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:34 am

Thanks for the tip, Kat. I ordered the book.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:18 pm

I've got an ad here for you guys- for a sort of Detox cure, 1893, in the Bangor, Maine newspaper!

Look at the prices!
And multiply by 18.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:33 pm

ummm...Okay but what was the cure? I don't see that anywhere.

Remember those were the days (or very near 'em) when the latest cure to end all cures was a new concoction marketed by Bayer - and no, I don't mean that cure... I mean heroin.
http://www.healthcareprescriptiondrugab ... eroin.html

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:59 pm

A patient fighting severe pain may receive 2-4 mg. of morphine every 2 hours. A person without severe physical pain who received 8 or 16 mg. of morphine in a single dose would be "snowed." Lizzie would have been heavily sedated, probably unable to determine what was real from what was a dream or hallucination.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:35 pm

For what its worth, I was given morphine when I was in the hospital for kidney stones last Thanksgiving, I was in such pain. Though it was a shot which is in CCs vs mgs, so, I don't have a clue how much I received of the stuff compared to Lizzie?

It kills pain instantly, within 4 seconds and gave me a bit of a head rush, but, it was mostly a warm, fuzzy feeling. I eventually laid down and went to sleep on my gurney, finally free of pain and relaxed. But, I was totally cognizant whenever I was awoken to answer questions or asked to scoot off my gurney onto the CAT scan table.

I realize that it must affect everyone differently, but, I was able to function on morphine. My only issue would have been trying to stay awake.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:06 pm

Susan, there's roughly 28.3 millilitres per cubic centimeter. A c.c. is just a whisker less than one ounce metric; the measurement usuallly given for 1 ounce is 28.4. That should apply to both fluid and dry measure if I recall correctly. In dry measure for example, 28.4 grams is equal to one ounce.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:24 am

Did I miss something?
Did anyone compare 1/8 grain as to whether it was a small dose or not?
In Augusta's transcription of testimony the 1/8 grain was given Lizzie first.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:32 pm

Nope, you've not missed anything. All we need do is get back to grains from where we are now, then we'll be set.

Here's a link to a conversion widget that should shortcut the process:
http://www.metric-conversion.biz/conver ... +grams.htm