What was Morse looking for?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:33 pm

Deputy Sheriff Wixon testified about the police searching the hay at the Preliminary (page 228):

Q. What was the situation up there?
A. I think I saw Officer Doherty and Officer Riley.
Q. Up there?
A. Yes, up in the barn; and I think one or two others, I wont say how many. I did not stay there but a very short time. Doherty was pitching over the hay.
Q. Pitching it from where?
A. From the north side of the barn.
Q. Was the hay located at that time on the north side of the barn?
A. It seemed to be all about; it had been pitched over considerable when I got there.

This was on the afternoon of August 4th.

The Evening Standard of August 6th has this:

"... The search for the weapon with which the murders were committed has developed nothing up to date. John W. Morse in company with D. P. Keefe, looked through the hay in the barn yesterday and made a thorough examination of the carriages and sleighs. ..."

What would Uncle John expect to find after the police had already tossed and searched the hay? This was on the 5th and Morse at that time was probably still the main suspect and yet the police allowed him to conduct his own search and possibly destroy evidence.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:41 am

Could Morse really have been hidingsomething...but made Keefe think he was looking for something instead ?

Tracy...

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:42 am

That's an interesting idea Tracy. He seemed preoccupied by the barn and yard. This was also in the August 6th Evening Standard:

"Later, he locked the barn when a couple of Boston newspaper men were inside, and found considerable fault with the liberties people took with the premises. He was reminded that a reward of $5000 had been offered, and that everybody was intensely interested."

Then there is his peculiar behavior in staying out in the yard on the afternoon of the 4th, leaving Lizzie at the mercy of the police.

Could it have been to keep his eye on what was found in the yard or barn? Or even more important what was not found? Or maybe to see the places the police did search so that if he wanted to hide something he could use those.

Pure speculation of course, but something had Morse watching that area.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:59 am

If Morse was completely innocent with regard to the murders, I think he was still stuck in a pretty tight place--on the one hand wanting to distance himself from the horrible event even though he'd been at the house that morning, but on the other hand feeling enough family loyalty to want to "help" if he could.

He could have been looking out for Lizzie's interests either by looking for evidence to turn suspicion away from her or by actually tampering with or covering up evidence that pointed toward her.

There is certainly the possibilty that he was looking out for souvenir hunters who might damage or steal property.

Then again, he might have had a direct connection to the events that led to the murders.

Why the police allowed people to continue to live in and wander around the crime scene is beyond me. Today, no one but police would have been allowed to do that.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:06 pm

Hey Har, and Tracy! That's interesting speculation!
Any more info on what Morse was seen doing out there Thursday, besides claiming the cellar door was open and then Friday canvassing the barn and he was supposed to be begging to have the bloody stuff buried?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:31 pm

Interesting stuff! In the Leopold & Loeb case, Loeb hung around the cops a lot - giving them theories but at the same time keeping tabs on where the cops were in their investigation.

Morse, I believe, was guilty of conspiracy. Nowadays I vote for the butcher theory. (Tomorrow I might believe in a different theory...)

Maybe Morse - or the possible butcher friend - dropped something. He sure did want those clothes buried fast. Even to the point of paying for it! Now that's serious for Morse. Was the scarf his?

And that cellar door he tried to say was unlocked ... There's no way I'm gonna believe that guy was innocent. Uh uh - no how, no way.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:09 pm

I hope we can come up with more information on what JVM WAS doing out there. His "suspicion-ability" really makes it seem like if he wasn't actually hiding something he was at least keeping the police from finding something by misdirecting their efforts.

Tracy...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:21 am

Hows this for speculation, could Morse have been out to the barn on a fact finding mission for Lizzie? Lizzie said she was out in the barn and Morse possibly knowing her "story" wanted to make sure she had her facts straight about what was in the boxes and baskets she said she had looked in while out there? Lizzie herself couldn't readily go back out there and look around there again without garnering suspicion.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:45 am

That Morse would look for the weapon in the loft is odd. Why would an outside killer, in a hurry to leave, bother to take the weapon to the barn and then up in the loft? A hatchet or cleaver is not that hard to conceal beneath a coat. They would need to conceal it only for a short time until they were a safe distance from the scene.

I can understand the police checking the loft as I think they suspected Lizzie's story from the beginning. Maybe Morse had suspicions about Lizzie's story as well and wanted to see for himself whether what she said was possible.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:54 am

Susan and Harry...both of your ideas make sense. I just can't believe that JVM is innocent of a playing a part in this crime.

Tracy...

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:31 am

Besides looking for a weapon, the cops were also looking for evidence to show them if someone had slept in the barn in the hay - or seeing if someone was concealing himself in the hay.

Someone said they saw the hay arranged so that it looked like someone had slept in it. Was that Morse who said it?

Jimmy S. Windeskog · Post by **Jimmy S. Windeskog** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:13 pm

Everything Morse did these days raises suspicions.

Morse could not been looking for a murder wepon. But in all fairness, I cant imagien what the hell he was doing there at all.

Did not he also have a strange facenation with the mail when he, Lizzie and Bridget was told to keep at home the day after the murdes also?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:19 pm

Jimmy...I doubt he was "looking" for the murder weapon too. I think if anything, he may have been trying to keep the police from finding it if he in fact knew where it was. Now if he was not sure where it was exactly, he may HAVE been looking for it...to find it BEFORE the police did...so he could "take care of it"

Tracy...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:35 pm

Thats a good point too, Tracy. Lizzie may have told Morse about her trip to the barn and he may have put 2 and 2 together and figured the murder weapon was out there, somewhere. Do you think she would have confided in him where it was? That Morse was an accomplice all during the murders or after the fact?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:21 pm

augusta @ Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:31 am wrote:Besides looking for a weapon, the cops were also looking for evidence to show them if someone had slept in the barn in the hay - or seeing if someone was concealing himself in the hay.

Someone said they saw the hay arranged so that it looked like someone had slept in it. Was that Morse who said it?

There was John Donnelly up in the barn who saw an impression in the hay which he thought was about 5 or 6" deep, a foot wide, and had a rounded shape. He didn't guess what had caused it. (Prelim. 437)

There was also Clarkson:
Q. Did you notice anything about the hay, except that; whether it appeared to have been disturbed at all, or not?
A. In two or three places it looked as though it had been stepped in. In one place west of the window, it looked as though a man had laid there.
(Prelim. 469).

One of the two, I think, was considered drunk- but which?

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:25 pm

John Donnelly was the alleged drunkard as I remember it...Harrington & Doherty's Witness Statements compilation?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:52 am

I think whomever it was that committed the murders could have hidden the weapon in the barn, and JVM went out to get it once the police started investigating. I think it's very possible that Lizzie wasn't sure exactly where the murderer put weapon was and told Uncle John "Go out there and FIND it damnit...and GET RID OF IT !" I also think it's very possible that as sly as old JVM was, that he "hid it in plain sight"...somewhere in the cellar. I have no single quotable place from where I got this idea. I just am putting together some things in my head from all the wonderful posts I have read, and from some of the reading I have done...it's a "compilation" idea I guess.

Tracy...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:11 am

John Morse was free to come and go from the house until the mob incident. He could have taken the murder weapon away from the premises and disposed of it anywhere he saw fit.

I like the idea of hiding in plain sight though, hadn't quite thought of that. I was thinking half seriously and half jokingly that the way he was so concerned about the mail, maybe he put the hatchet in a box and mailed it somewhere? Like to his home address or something?

Jimmy S. Windeskog · Post by **Jimmy S. Windeskog** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:07 am

Susan @ Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:35 am wrote:Thats a good point too, Tracy. Lizzie may have told Morse about her trip to the barn and he may have put 2 and 2 together and figured the murder weapon was out there, somewhere. Do you think she would have confided in him where it was? That Morse was an accomplice all during the murders or after the fact?

But if he really listend to Lizzie he should have know that she was in the barn BEFORE the murder of Andrew, not after...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:10 am

So who was this "Keefe" person, Har?
Any more references to him?

Lubinsky, the ice cream man, thought he saw a woman, not Bridget, outside the side steps between 11:05 & 11:10 a.m.
Andrew could have been dead by then and Lizzie (?) outside returning from the barn.
11:10 is pretty late for Andrew to still be alive?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:10 am

Keefe was also the person Morse turned to when he wanted someone to bury the bloody clothes in the back yard. From Rebello:

"John V. Morse wanted the bloody clothing buried. However, he discovered later that afternoon that. David P. Keefe, a letter carrier, had hired William B. Niles, owner of a restaurant on South Main Street, to bury the clothing and pieces of the skull behind the barn. Mr. Keefe had charged $5.00, a fee John Morse felt was too high. He finally agreed to pay $3.00. Mr. Niles was later ordered by Marshal Hilliard to retrieve the clothing and skull pieces behind the barn. Both Mr. Keefe and Mr. Niles boarded at the same address, 7 Bank Street."

The disagreement between Morse and Keefe is described in the newspapers as "quite an altercation".

Other than these two incidents Keefe doesn't appear anywhere else.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:31 am

Morse and the Mailman!
Figures!

Jimmy S. Windeskog · Post by **Jimmy S. Windeskog** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:03 am

You got a point there Kat. But that information can only be of use if we thinkt that the woman Lubinsky sow was Lizzie, rigth?

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:39 am

i've never been clear on this subject:

is it basically that morse himself personally wants the clothing buried? or was there permission given by someone not truly authorized? and somewhere along in here andrew's coat seems to disappear -- well, actually i guess it had disappeared before the burial or is just overlooked -- or morse or someone buries the coat ahead of time, before the other stuff?

so interesting things are happening at this juncture.

i guess my main question is -- is this a morse-driven incident that is "corrected" by the police, or is it a police screw-up to start with?

anyone know what i mean?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:23 pm

Morse claims it was the "family" who wanted them buried. I assume he means Emma and Lizzie. In the Evening Standard of Aug. 6th:

"Morse was very anxious to engage Keefe, or have Keefe hire somebody to bury the blood stained cloths and towels which were used on the victims. He said that the family wanted them put out of sight and would pay well for it. This news was communicated to Medical Examiner Dolan and he ordered that nothing on the premises should be disturbed."

Of course Morse went ahead and had them buried. I've always wondered whether he knew of Dolan's order. Same with Emma cleaning the blood off the door.

diana · Post by **diana** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:29 pm

It is confusing ... policeman Albert Chase reports that on Friday, Aug. 5 the clothes "were this afternoon taken from a washtub in the cellar wash room of the Borden House by orders of the City Marshal and Medical Examiner, and were buried under my direction in the yard back of the barn." (Witness Statements)

This report seems to contradict the Evening Standard's suggestion that Dolan denied Morse's request and said nothing on the premises was to be disturbed.

What happened to Andrew's coat is a mystery -- perhaps frugality came into play here -- and it was just 'too good to bury'. Someone may have thought it could be cleaned and used again?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:36 pm

Yes, you guys have hit on the contradiction. It is fully a mystery and we may never know how it really came about that the clothes, etc., were buried.
I have wondered if Chase tried to put a good light on the situation by claiming there was the authority's order to bury- so as not to seem inept.
However, I was thinking last night that while everyone was so concerned with the bloody objects there were still naked and mutilated bodies in the dining room! I would want those taken care of first, I believe, if I had a choice!

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:43 pm

Nice idea about Morse hiding something in the hay, Tracy! We do know he made a point of claiming the cellar door was unlocked when he returned--info that contradicts everyone else. One thing I love about the clothing burial is the account of Morse dickering over the cost of labor to bury the clothes. According to that and a newspaper story quoting Hastings folk, Morse was even cheaper than Andrew!

--Lyddie

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:41 am

Harry wrote:That Morse would look for the weapon in the loft is odd. Why would an outside killer, in a hurry to leave, bother to take the weapon to the barn and then up in the loft? A hatchet or cleaver is not that hard to conceal beneath a coat. They would need to conceal it only for a short time until they were a safe distance from the scene.

I can understand the police checking the loft as I think they suspected Lizzie's story from the beginning. Maybe Morse had suspicions about Lizzie's story as well and wanted to see for himself whether what she said was possible.

1. I agree, if Morse would look for something, it should not be the weapon.

2. In my opinion, Morse didn't look for nothing at all, because he knew there was nothing to find (and there was nothing to hide, neither). He probably just put himself among the policemen, so that others could see him doing all he could to help the police to find the killer...

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What was Morse looking for?

What was Morse looking for?

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