Bridget

[Kat]

What if Bridget had not gone to rest before dinner? Would she have been killed? Would a plan that had been hatched earlier be put off? Or would she have to be killed too due to this something that some believe was a precipitating factor? If the killer had to kill right then due to anger or whatever...
Would Andrew's life had been spared because Bridget was right there? Would his murder be accomplished at some other time?
It's hard to believe that just because Bridget was in her room (or was she?) Andrew was killed and she was spared.
(Remember, she was in the house and supposedly Lizzie was not.)

[Yooper]

The front door has always been a moot point:

Officer Allen, Trial, Pages 433-434:
Q. Then where did you go as you went through the sitting room?
A. I went to the front door, front hall.
Q. Describe exactly what you did at the front hall.
A. I looked at the door and the door was locked with a night lock and also with a bolt,
bolted.
Q. In any other way, did you notice?
A. No, sir. There was a lock under the knob, but I don't know whether that was locked
or not.
Q. But the night lock was locked?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the bolt was locked?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you interfere with the door at all?
A. No, sir.

I suggest that it would have been to Lizzie's benefit if the front door had been found open or at least with the sliding bolt not in use.

[Yooper]

What if Bridget had not gone to rest before dinner? Would she have been killed? Would a plan that had been hatched earlier be put off? Or would she have to be killed too due to this something that some believe was a precipitating factor? If the killer had to kill right then due to anger or whatever...
Would Andrew's life had been spared because Bridget was right there? Would his murder be accomplished at some other time?
It's hard to believe that just because Bridget was in her room (or was she?) Andrew was killed and she was spared.
(Remember, she was in the house and supposedly Lizzie was not.)

Perhaps an equally valid question is: how do we know that Bridget had gone to her room to lie down? All we have are Lizzie and Bridget's word on that, and if Bridget helped Lizzie cover up, well...

The "something" referred to is the possibility for Bridget innocently stumbling across either murder and being disinclined to help cover it up, or it could simply be the suspicion that Bridget could and would incriminate Lizzie in any way. It might have made more sense to kill Bridget than to involve her in the murders or a cover up.

Killing Bridget might have taken place earlier than Andrew's arrival, but it would have then necessitated killing Andrew. Bridget would have been killed on the first floor and it is unreasonable to think that Andrew would not come across her body.

Andrew was not killed until Bridget had gone to her room. This may be the only reason he was killed, it provided the opportunity. This also implies a lack of knowledge on Lizzie's part that Bridget would, or even might, help her.

While there may have been reasons why Bridget was not killed even if there was some advantage in doing so, the simplest explanation is that there was never any intention to kill Bridget, as Doug and Shelley have pointed out.

In order to involve Bridget in the murders, Lizzie would have to believe that Bridget would have a reason to want to help, some motive, and I don't see it.

[Yooper]

The possibility also exists for Bridget to have been killed in the barn, but that also implies premeditation of Andrew's murder and Lizzie didn't know she would have the opportunity to kill Andrew. Even at 70 years of age and not feeling well, he could probably have overpowered her.

[Fargo]

If the fromt door was bolted when officer Allen looked at it, then it would indicate that Bridget rebolted it after letting Andrew in.

I read somewhere that the bolt was not usually used during the day. ( I have been looking for it but haven't found it . Although Lizzie does indicate this slightly in her inquest tesimony page 321 of the Prelimenary hearing. )If this is true then I would think that Bridget should have left the bolt unlocked after letting Andrew in.

Bridget indicates in her testimony that she didn't know if the bolt was usually locked during the day. When asked about the locks on the front door Bridget said that she didn't know anything about the front door.(page 204 trial testimony)

But being the maid I would think that she would know about the usual practice of locking the front door. I would think the maid would be very experienced in answering the front door.

Of course Bridget could have left the bolt unlocked after Andrew's arrival and someone esle could have locked it later.

It makes me wonder if it was only said that the bolt was not used during the day to make the possibility if an outside intruder more believeble.

An outside intruder with keys could get through the front door if the bolt was unlocked. An outside intruder with keys could not get through the front door (on his own) if the bolt was locked.

Not that I really believe that an outside intruder really had keys to the front door, but the possibility of an outsider entering the house that way if the bolt was unlocked, could have worked in the defence's favour

[Yooper]

If the fromt door was bolted when officer Allen looked at it, then it would indicate that Bridget rebolted it after letting Andrew in.

I read somewhere that the bolt was not usually used during the day. ( I have been looking for it but haven't found it . Although Lizzie does indicate this slightly in her inquest tesimony page 321 of the Prelimenary hearing. )If this is true then I would think that Bridget should have left the bolt unlocked after letting Andrew in.

Bridget says in her testimony that she didn't know if the bolt was usually locked during the day, (page 204 trial testimony) but being the maid I would think that she would know whether it was or not.

Of course Bridget could have left the bolt unlocked after Andrew's arrival and someone esle could have locked it later.

It makes me wonder if it was only said that the bolt was not used during the day to make the possibility if an outside intruder more believeble.

An outside intruder with keys could get through the front door if the bolt was unlocked. An outside intruder with keys could not get through the front door (on his own) if the bolt was locked.

Not that I really believe that an outside intruder really had keys to the front door, but the possibility of an outsider entering the house that way if the bolt was unlocked, could have worked in the defence's favour

The front door being unlocked would allow some wiggle room for the contention that Lizzie heard something which she took to be Abby's return. It has been pointed out that she might have mistaken an intruder leaving to be Abby returning. Lizzie clearly could not have heard Abby doing anything since about 9:30 that morning! An intruder could have closed the door behind him, possibly engaging two of the three locks if they operated on springs, but there was no way to reach through the door and manipulate the sliding bolt lock. At any rate, the sliding bolt was in use at the time, and it would have been to Lizzie's advantage if it were not in use.

I think Bridget testified that she only opened the door for Andrew and went right back to her work. That leaves either Andrew or Lizzie to lock the door.

[FairhavenGuy]

It has been pointed out that she might have mistaken an intruder leaving to be Abby returning. Lizzie clearly could not have heard Abby doing anything since about 9:30 that morning! An intruder could have closed the door behind him. . . .

If Lizzie was in the house to hear that happen, it would have to have been before Andrew was killed in order for her "out in the barn" excuse to hold up. Having Lizzie hear an intruder leave by the front door means that the intruder would have to enter the house a second time for Andrew.

[Yooper]

That's right Christopher, there's still Lizzie's Inquest testimony that she was "aware of nothing else" when she went into the house and "discovered" Andrew. That was the only other opportunity to have heard anything.

Lizzie, Inquest, Page 78 (35)
Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.

[FairhavenGuy]

There are a lot of very good reasons why Lizzie, and only Lizzie, was arrested and tried for these crimes. Except that the police never conclusively found a weapon, (and even though our horror movie influenced opinions make us think there should have been more blood on the killer) it seems pretty clear that the logical suspect, who had motive, means and opportunity, was the one they arrested.

Why they couldn't get a conviction in court is another question altogether.

[Yooper]

You're as much of a "devil" as I am, Christopher!! The lack of a conviction is yet another can of worms!

[shakiboo]

Even though I know she had to have done it, there's just something in me that just doesn't want it to be so. Back then those members of the jury, with the mind set, they had to have had, regarding a "lady" and the questions 1. Where is the weapon? 2. Where is the blood? 3. How could SHE have done such a thing? They just couldn't see that a woman of her standing could have done such a thing. If you see what I mean?...........IMHO

[bob_m_ryan]

I wonder, would it have really made a big difference (a guilty verdict) had the actual murder weapon been found?

I suppose the answer to that question would be that it would depend on where it was found?

[doug65oh]

A youngster had the same trouble so the story goes about 1920, shak: ”Say it isn’t so, Joe!” But of course, it was, as Jackson allegedly admitted. Advance forward a century plus from 1892: “What??!! Why I can’t believe it. They’ve got a star football player charged with two counts of murder! It can’t be – he wouldn’t do such a thing!”

Only the century is different… The responses are the same.

[Allen]

Killing Bridget might have taken place earlier than Andrew's arrival, but it would have then necessitated killing Andrew. Bridget would have been killed on the first floor and it is unreasonable to think that Andrew would not come across her body.

I'm not quite sure how Lizzie killing Briget would've necessitated Andrew's murder anymore than killing Abby had. She could've killed them both and then went on her way about town making an alibi. All before Andrew arrived home. She had that window between Abby's death and Andrew's arrival which was plenty of time to get the job done. I agree that she was never a target to start with. I think Lizzie truly liked Bridget. She seemed to have bonded with many of her servants later in life as well. Murdering someone is irreversable and permanent. I'm not so sure Lizzie wanted to resort to that with Bridget if there was no reason to do so. Even in a fit of rage I think Lizzie would've thought twice about ending her life. In my opinion Lizzie's rage was aimed at the two people who died only.

I think Bridget indicated in testimony that she usually did not answer the front door if there was anyone else at home. I'd think this would make more sense if she was working to not have to drop everything to go and answer the door if she didn't have to. According to Bridget the custom was for Mrs. Borden or one of the other members of the household to attended to the front door. This could be why she was unsure of how it was always kept.

[Yooper]

Yes, I suppose Lizzie could have called Bridget in the house or killed her in the barn. She wouldn't have known when Andrew would return. Who knows? Maybe she was planning that when Andrew arrived and that explains the giggle?

[shakiboo]

You're probably right Dougoh, disbelief when idols fall, when they are, only human after all.......

[Kat]

Killing Bridget might have taken place earlier than Andrew's arrival, but it would have then necessitated killing Andrew. Bridget would have been killed on the first floor and it is unreasonable to think that Andrew would not come across her body.

--Allen quoting Yooper- Not Kat, just to be clear.

[Yooper]

Killing Bridget might have taken place earlier than Andrew's arrival, but it would have then necessitated killing Andrew. Bridget would have been killed on the first floor and it is unreasonable to think that Andrew would not come across her body.

--Allen quoting Yooper- Not Kat, just to be clear.

Also for the sake of clarity, if Lizzie killed Bridget in the house before Andrew's arrival, she would have had to kill Andrew, too. He would have almost walked in on the act based upon his arrival vs. Bridget beginning the indoor window washing. Lizzie might have called Bridget in earlier and killed her, or killed her in the barn which would give her time to escape. Running into Andrew on the street might have to be avoided.

[Shelley]

Bridget went to the barn for water- nothing would have been easier than to wait out there inside for her, then bop her over the head from behind, drag the body inside, and let the police find it in the old horse stall. In fact, it would have looked better for Lizzie if she had killed the maid- for it would have seemed the work of a lunatic or homicidal maniac. There was no motive for killing Bridget on Lizzie's behalf. Here's another thought- just maybe Lizzie did plan to kill Bridget too but the opportunity never presented itself because Bridget stayed outside in view of people too long on the south side of the house, then Andrew came home. When Bridget went to her room on the third floor to lie down, Lizzie could have followed her up and killed her on the bed- but the police would really wonder why a killer would KNOW there was a maid upstairs and it would look more like an inside job.

[Yooper]

Other considerations are: killing Bridget in the barn or after killing Andrew were about the only times Bridget would be indoors and alone, other than just before Andrew's arrival. Killing Bridget in the barn risked being seen outside going to or from the barn. It also would have left some of Bridget's window washing implements unattended for a time, which might seem odd.

[FairhavenGuy]

But Lizzie claims she DID go to the barn and yet nobody saw her, so it wouldn't seem to make much difference.

She could have said she was up in the loft eating pears and she heard Bridget come in and get bopped on the head. She stayed quiet til the intruder left, then she ran to the house and found her father was dead, too.

[Yooper]

Well, the way it went, Lizzie would have to kill Bridget in the barn, probably explain to Andrew where both Bridget and Abby were, kill Andrew, get ready to leave and establish an alibi, and run directly into Mrs. Churchill on the way. She could have gone after killing Bridget and not killed Andrew, but she risked being seen by Mrs. Churchill and Mrs. Bowen. Either way, she risked being seen going to or from the barn where Bridget would have been found. She also ran the risk of being seen leaving the house where Abby was found. Maybe that's the tradeoff she made, it may have seemed less incriminating to be the one summoning help than running off to establish an alibi.

[Yooper]

Come to think of it, Lizzie couldn't very well leave the house to establish an alibi without killing Bridget first. Bridget would have testified that Lizzie was alone with Abby all morning and to the circumstances surrounding Andrew's arrival. It certainly would have put Bridget under suspicion at first, and Bridget might have blabbed anything at that point. She could have testified as to when or about when Lizzie left the house, and the alibi would not hold up.

[Shelley]

I think if Lizzie had been more quick-witted, she could have easily have told Bridget she was going down to the sale at Sargent's as Bridget was going out to wash windows, thereby making it a necessity for Bridget leaving the side door open for the hour she was outside. She could have mentioned Mrs. Borden was also going out, and Bridget did hear the part about the buying of meat for the noonday meal, so she would not have been looking around for Abby later - she might have supposed she was out shopping.

Bridget also never had cause to go to the second floor. Bridget would think she was just leaving . Lizzie then could have killed Abby upstairs, changed her dress, and hurried downtown, returning much later when Bridget was washing the windows inside, - well, then Bridget would have been the one to look guilty! Or the police would have figured a killer had an hour to have slipped in looking for Andrew while Bridget was outside. A killer slipping in through an open door which was unlocked for an hour with nobody IN the house to spot him is more believable and possible.

[Yooper]

There's a lot of possibilities for what Lizzie might have done, but I get the idea that the murders weren't planned too far in advance. I think she wanted to kill Abby the first chance she had, but the rest was at random. Morse and Andrew were out for a somewhat predictable amount of time, and Bridget was outdoors and would likely be there for about an hour. Abby was upstairs in the guest room. That's about as good as it would get. She had no way to know she would have the opportunity to kill Andrew, so I imagine she had to mentally cover killing Abby assuming Andrew would remain alive. That was probably the origin of the note story. Lizzie may have had a lot of thinking to do after killing Abby. I think she killed Andrew when the opportunity fell in her lap because the alternative would be to face him.

I'm inclined to think Lizzie had no reason to kill Bridget and lacked the desire to do so. She might not have killed Andrew if Bridget hadn't gone upstairs. There seemed to be at least a passive effort to leave Bridget out of it, and I suppose that's an argument against involving Bridget in a cover up.

[SallyG]

Regarding the locked front door; I always saw this as an indication of Lizzie's guilt...she locked the front door securely so no one would inadvertently walk in on her while she was otherwise occupied committing murder. I myself double lock my door when I don't want anyone unexpectedly coming in...when taking a shower, etc. My boys have keys and while they usually call before they come, I would hate to be surprised by one on exiting the shower wearing a towel (or less).

She locked it when she killed Abby so that Andrew would not come home unexpectedly and catch her in the act. I always assumed Lizzie intended to leave the house after killing Abby since I read somewhere that when Andrew came home she was wearing a hat. I think that foiled her plans to go out and establish an alibi. She'd gone to a lot of trouble to make sure Bridget was aware of the Sargents sale, probably hoping to get her out of the house, and to also mention that she might be going out as well.

Lizzie COULD have targeted just Abby...but to me this does not make sense. Why kill just Abby? Sure, she and Emma would then inherit everything....but Andrew could live another 10-15 years. What was going on at the time that made it imperative that Abby die?

It really seems that Lizzie got caught at home by Andrew coming back earlier than expected. There she was at home, having not been out all morning, and Abby's body was upstairs. Of course Andrew would have known she'd done it, so he had to die, too.

Once she realized she'd have to do in Andrew as well, she had a very short window of opportunity. Bridget had to be out of the area, and it had to be accomplished before Uncle John came back for lunch. Plus, it was getting on to dinnertime and Bridget would soon be starting to prepare dinner. Once she got Bridget upstairs and out of the way, she locked the front door again, and didn't waste any time.

I doubt there was ever any intention of killing Bridget at all.

I don't think that the murders were planned to the extent that Lizzie thought of the consequences afterward...a murder trial, being ostracized, etc. Her thoughts took her only to the point that Abby and Andrew were dead and out of her hair. I truly believe she thought that her story of what had happened would be accepted without question. She did not anticipate what happened afterwards.

[Yooper]

If Lizzie planned to kill both Andrew and Abby, she must have had a plan. At the time she killed Abby, when was she planning to kill Andrew? How did she know she would have the opportunity with Bridget present and John possibly returning any time?

[Shelley]

Well, the whole problem I have had with premeditation is that a hatchet is not something you plan out. I think it is more a weapon of desperation. When Abby blabbed to Bowen about her fears of being poisoned the day before the murders, Lizzie went right into action and marched over to Alice Russell's that night with the big "Father -has- an- enemy-we-are-being-poisoned-in-the-milk" etc. tale of doom. She was doing damage-control and prepping a witness.

Frankly, I rather think there is something in the poison angle-and poison is premeditated.

Wednesday Eli Bence says Lizzie came into the store for Prussic acid about 11 a.m.- this would be about 2 hours or so after Abby went over to Bowen and told the story of thinking they were poisoned. I think this is more than coincidence.

I can picture a scene in my head on Thursday morning when Abby says something to Lizzie about her suspicions. Abby has sent Bridget out of the house to be out of earshot, washing the windows, while Abby tells Lizzie what she suspects. Not being able to get poison on Wednesday, a hatchet will surely take care of business. And Lizzie, now terrified she has been found out, panics, takes the measure she has to hand quickly and silences her despised stepmother. I think it took her some time to compose herself, change her garments, and figure out what to do. She double locks the front door while she is covering her trail and working out a plan. The Sargent's sale, which I think she had thought about going to already was going to be her alibi- but then Andrew comes home.

Andrew's murder, I believe, was one of sheer self-preservation- because he would have KNOWN the truth. Lizzie was in the house all morning-and he knew of Lizzie's hatred for his wife. When Bridget ran upstairs, she had to act fast, it would be her only opportunity before John came back and Bridget returned to start dinner. Action was swift. I agree. I don't think she ever dreamed her word would be questioned or her story investigated.

[Yooper]

I agree, Abby had to go, and right now, for some reason. While she may have had the intention of poisoning Andrew, she could not foresee the opportunity to kill him with a hatchet, that was a purely random chance-in-a-million. It might have been a completely different story if Andrew had not taken a nap, or if Bridget had not gone upstairs, or if John Morse had returned earlier. At the time, if she planned to kill them both with poison, those plans went out the window for some reason, maybe because poison was difficult to get. I also think Abby's visit to Dr. Bowen the previous day was about deliberate poisoning, or at least Lizzie thought so. The family had quite possibly been dysfunctional since Abby Borden Whitehead had been born, some nine years earlier. The poor relations were now naming themselves Borden, possibly in anticipation of something, which very likely got Lizzie and Emma's attention. The fears came to pass with the Whitehead residence incident, and there was no pacifying Lizzie and Emma. It escalated from there.

[SallyG]

It's interesting to contemplate what would have happened if Andrew had NOT come home early. Abby would have been dead upstairs, Lizzie would have gone out shopping, and Andrew would have come home and found only Bridget there. How long would it have taken for them to find Abby? Would Andrew have gone looking through the house for her if she had not answered his calls, or just assumed she was out? Was there some deed changing taking place that day that would have made Andrew instantly suspicious at Abbys absence? Would Bridget have been blamed for Abbys murder since she was there alone with her?

It does seem as though Lizzies primary target was Abby.

In this day and age, I wonder how quickly the evidence would have mounted up against Lizzie? Would the hatchet have been positively identified as the murder weapon? Would the house have been THOROUGHLY searched and the dress that Lizzie later burned in the stove been located and found to contain bloodstains? Would her fingerprints have been found on the hatchet head?

What interests me is in the face of such a gruesome crime, the police were still attempting to maintain a sense of decorum. The bundle on Emmas closet floor which was just pushed aside, not searching the slop jar immediately, etc. Things that should have immediately been checked thoroughly but were not perhaps because they belonged to a "lady" and the police did not want to seem "indelicate".

I think that even if Andrew had escaped being murdered, he would have immediately suspected Lizzie of Abby's murder. What I wonder is if he would have protected her as he had done before?

[FairhavenGuy]

What I wonder is if he would have protected her as he had done before?

Whether he might have or not, I'm pretty sure that Lizzie did not think he would. That lack of confidence in her father's support is probably part of the reason Abby died to begin with.

[bob_m_ryan]

Yes, I would agree. If Lizzie really thought Andrew was going to give the bulk of his money to Abby, that would represent plenty of motive.

[Shelley]

"That lack of confidence in her father's support is probably part of the reason Abby died to begin with."

Wow, that is the briefest, best summary of the situation I have EVER seen! Bravo!

[FairhavenGuy]

Well, Shelley, your scenario just a few posts ahead of me seems like the best outline of the development of the crimes. Every piece makes perfect sense.

[snokkums]

I don't know if Bridget lied some much as it was she just didn't tell everything she knew. To me there is a difference.
To me, lying is when you know the truth and you don't tell it like that or you make something up; not telling what you know is just not saying anything, keeping your mouth shut.

I think it was more that than her lying. She was loyal to the Borden family.

[Kat]

Catching up here...I notice a couple of times people say *Andrew came home early.* Is this something from Lincoln? Where does this come from- anyone know?

Also a couple of posts mention Lizzie (as killer) locked the front door. Why is that an issue in the context you'all were writing about?

Also stated as memory that Lizzie was wearing a hat when Andrew came home? Who in testimony would be a witness to that?

Shelley what you wrote about Bridget on an earlier page was pretty interesting. About killing her or not killing her.

And Yooper what you said about Lil' Abbie B. Whitehead Potter (1884) was something I had not thought of before. Since she has no blood kin relationship to the name "Borden" giving her that middle name does smack of pretension. Even tho that was earlier than the house dispute (Fourth Street, 1887) it very well might have figured into how Emma & Lizzie felt about the Gray-Whitehead family. Abbie herself was given a Durfee middle name and we have yet to find a kinship there either...
I wonder now if Abbie herself had pretensions? I just had thought she was thankful to marry at her age.

[Allen]

Regarding the locked front door; I always saw this as an indication of Lizzie's guilt...she locked the front door securely so no one would inadvertently walk in on her while she was otherwise occupied committing murder. I myself double lock my door when I don't want anyone unexpectedly coming in...when taking a shower, etc. My boys have keys and while they usually call before they come, I would hate to be surprised by one on exiting the shower wearing a towel (or less).

She locked it when she killed Abby so that Andrew would not come home unexpectedly and catch her in the act. I always assumed Lizzie intended to leave the house after killing Abby since I read somewhere that when Andrew came home she was wearing a hat. I think that foiled her plans to go out and establish an alibi. She'd gone to a lot of trouble to make sure Bridget was aware of the Sargents sale, probably hoping to get her out of the house, and to also mention that she might be going out as well.

Sorry if this is coming back to a subject a little late. I'm rereading some threads and going over testimony. Something about Bridget having to let Andrew in the front door that day has always bothered me as well. In my opinion, it has always appeared that Andrew fully expected to be able to let himself in the front door using his key. That indicates that the only lock which was kept done up during the way would be the one which could be opened using such a key. Which makes perfect common sense. If you leave your house with the doors locked you want to be able to let yourself back in. No chances of being locked out if things are done that way. He didn't knock, or use the bell, or make known that he needed let in. He simply tried to let himself in. I am going to reread testimony given by Bridget and Lizzie because there was some reference made to Andrew forgetting his key but am unsure as to who said what at the moment. I'm thinking Lizzie said Bridget told her that Andrew forgot his key that day. But if he had why didn't he just knock? He knew perfectly well how the locks were kept.

[Yooper]

Another thought, if Andrew had forgotten his key, why wouldn't he knock at the side door or call in through the screen to be let in? He was seen by Mrs. Kelley coming around from the north side of the house, he would certainly have tried the side door first if he was there.

[SallyG]

I was reading Bridget testimony yesterday. She stated that what attracted her attention to someone at the door was the sound of someone pushing the door, trying to get in. Obviously, Andrew had turned his key and pushed the door, expecting it to open. Since the night locks were on, it didn't open and Bridget heard him trying to get the door open.

I've wondered why he wasn't heard at the side door if he went there first. But Bridget says she was in the sitting room washing windows. If the door between the sitting room and kitchen was shut, she very well may not have heard him. So he had to go back around to the front door. Bridget most likely probably spent a lot of time in her kitchen and usually heard anyone coming to the side door.

However, if Andrew tried the side door first and got no answer, that rules out Lizzies story that she was in the kitchen when Andrew came home. If she had been in the kitchen, she would have heard him at the side door. She was obviously trying to place herself far away from Abby's body.

It was also interesting that Bridget stated Lizzie was UPSTAIRS when she let Andrew in the front door. Mrs. Churchill stated that the door to the guest room was OPEN when she went up to find Abby. Hard for me to believe there was a dead body just a few feet away and Lizzie didn't know about it!

[Yooper]

Bridget had just come in through the kitchen a few minutes before Andrew's return and she didn't see Lizzie there at that time. Lizzie was upstairs, just like Bridget said she was.

[bob_m_ryan]

I think Andrew would have gone to the front door first. He would have known of the habit to keep the side screen door hooked during the day.

[SallyG]

I think Andrew would have gone to the front door first. He would have known of the habit to keep the side screen door hooked during the day.

Someone saw Andrew coming around the corner from the side yard when he came back home. I can't recall at the moment who, though. Of course he could have made a stop at the privy in the barn before going into the house, instead of going down to the cellar when he got inside. He may have checked the side door on the way by, found it locked and no one in the kitchen, and gone on around to the front door.

[Kat]

Lizzie said she didn't see Bridget - and when she did, Lizzie said Bridget went upstairs.
Inquest
Q. A large portion of that time, the girl was out of doors?
A. I don't know where she was, I did not see her. I supposed she was out of doors, as she had the pail and brush.
Q. You knew she was washing windows?
A. She told me she was going to. I did not see her do it.
Q. For a large portion of the time you did not see the girl?
A. No sir.
Q. So far as you know you were alone in the lower part of the house, a large portion of the time, after your father went away, and before he came back?
68 (25)
A. My father did not go away I think until somewhere about 10, as near as I can remember; he was with me down stairs.
Q. A large portion of the time after your father went away, and before he came back, so far as you know, you were alone in the house?
A. Maggie had come in and gone up stairs.
Q. After he went out, and before he came back; a large portion of the time after your father went out, and before he came back, so far as you know, you were the only person in the house?
A. So far as I know, I was.
.....
69(26)
Q. How soon after your father came in, before Maggie went up stairs?
A. I don't know. I did not see her.
Q. Did you see her after your father came in?
A. Not after she let him in.
.....
70(27)
Q. It had been left hooked by Bridget, if she was the last one in?
A. I suppose so; I don't know.
Q. Do you know when she did get through washing the outside?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you know she washed the windows inside?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you see her washing the windows inside?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know whether she washed the dining room and sitting room windows inside?
A. I did not see her.
Q. If she did would you not have seen her?
A. I don't know. She might be in one room and I in another.
Q. Do you think she might have gone to work and washed all the windows in the dining room and sitting room and you not know it?
A. I don't know, I am sure, whether I should or not. I might have seen her, and not know it.

Then it is stated as question to Lizzie:
"It is certain beyond reasonable doubt she was engaged in washing the windows..."
Then modified to:
"It is reasonably certain she washed the windows in the dining room and sitting room inside while your father was out..."

Lizzie also said Andrew did not go upstairs but says Bridget went upstairs. It's possible that Andrew & Bridget went upstairs...

In response to:

Bridget had just come in through the kitchen a few minutes before Andrew's return and she didn't see Lizzie there at that time. Lizzie was upstairs, just like Bridget said she was.

--Yooper

I thought Lizzie deserves equal time.

[Allen]

I found the bit of testimony concerning Andrew forgetting his key.

Lizzie's Inquest testimony page 60-61:

Q. Who let your father in?
A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said he had forgotten his key; so I think she must have been downstairs.

Q. His key would have done him no good if the locks were as you left them?
A. But they were always unbolted in the morning.

Q.Who unbolted them that morning?
A. I don't think they had been unbolted.; Maggie can tell you.

Q.If he had not forgotten his key it would have been no good?
A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key.

Q. You did not hear him say anything about it?
A. I heard his voice, but I don't know what he said.

Q. I understood you to say he said he had forgotten his key?
A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten his key.

Q. Where was Maggie when the bell rang?
A. I don't know, sir.

Q. Where were you when the bell rang?
A. I think in my room upstairs.

Q. Then you were upstairs when your father came home?
A. I don't know sure, but I think I was.

Q. What were you doing?
A. As I say, I took up these clean clothes, and stopped and basted a piece of tape on a garment.

Q. Did you come down before your father was let in?
A. I was on the stairs coming down when she let him in.

Q. Then you were up stairs when your father came home to the house on his return?
A. I think I was.

Q. How long had you been up there?
A. I had only been upstairs just long enough to take the clothes up and baste the little loop on the sleeve. I don't think I had been up there over five minutes.


Trial testimony of Bridget Sullivan page 233-235:

Q. Will you describe what you heard which attracted your attention?

page 234

A. Well, I heard like a person at the door was trying to unlock the door and push it but could not, so I went to the front door and unlocked it.

Q. Did you hear the ringing of any bell?
A. No, sir, I don't remember to hear any bell.

Q. When you got to the front door what did you find the condition of the locks there?
A. I went to open it, caught it by the knob, the spring lock, as usual, and it was locked. I unbolted it and it was locked with a key.

Q. So there were three locks?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you do with reference to the lock with the key?
A. I unlocked it. As I unlocked it I said, "Oh pshaw," and Miss Lizzie laughed, up stairs ---Her father was out there on the door step. She was upstairs.

Page 235

Q. Upstairs; could you tell whereabouts upstairs she was when she laughed?
A. Well, she must be either in the entry or in the top of the stairs, I can't tell which.

Q. Was there any talk that passed between you and Mr. Borden as he came to the door?
A. No, sir; not a word.

[Yooper]

Lizzie said she didn't see Bridget - and when she did, Lizzie said Bridget went upstairs.
Inquest
Q. A large portion of that time, the girl was out of doors?
A. I don't know where she was, I did not see her. I supposed she was out of doors, as she had the pail and brush.
Q. You knew she was washing windows?
A. She told me she was going to. I did not see her do it.
Q. For a large portion of the time you did not see the girl?
A. No sir.
Q. So far as you know you were alone in the lower part of the house, a large portion of the time, after your father went away, and before he came back?
68 (25)
A. My father did not go away I think until somewhere about 10, as near as I can remember; he was with me down stairs.
Q. A large portion of the time after your father went away, and before he came back, so far as you know, you were alone in the house?
A. Maggie had come in and gone up stairs.
Q. After he went out, and before he came back; a large portion of the time after your father went out, and before he came back, so far as you know, you were the only person in the house?
A. So far as I know, I was.
.....
69(26)
Q. How soon after your father came in, before Maggie went up stairs?
A. I don't know. I did not see her.
Q. Did you see her after your father came in?
A. Not after she let him in.
.....
70(27)
Q. It had been left hooked by Bridget, if she was the last one in?
A. I suppose so; I don't know.
Q. Do you know when she did get through washing the outside?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you know she washed the windows inside?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you see her washing the windows inside?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know whether she washed the dining room and sitting room windows inside?
A. I did not see her.
Q. If she did would you not have seen her?
A. I don't know. She might be in one room and I in another.
Q. Do you think she might have gone to work and washed all the windows in the dining room and sitting room and you not know it?
A. I don't know, I am sure, whether I should or not. I might have seen her, and not know it.

Then it is stated as question to Lizzie:
"It is certain beyond reasonable doubt she was engaged in washing the windows..."
Then modified to:
"It is reasonably certain she washed the windows in the dining room and sitting room inside while your father was out..."

Lizzie also said Andrew did not go upstairs but says Bridget went upstairs. It's possible that Andrew & Bridget went upstairs...

In response to:

Bridget had just come in through the kitchen a few minutes before Andrew's return and she didn't see Lizzie there at that time. Lizzie was upstairs, just like Bridget said she was.

--Yooper

I thought Lizzie deserves equal time.

"Equal time" for Lizzie might be better addressed in context, that of the "upstairs, downstairs, all around stairs" exchange in the Inquest testimony. Lizzie mentioned during the cited exchange that Andrew remained with her until 10 o'clock, which can be refuted by various people having seen him on his rounds prior to 10 o'clock. It makes me wonder how good Lizzie's recollection was at that moment.

[Kat]

I did that already. I showed how Lizzie really only changed her story once- by saying where she was- then changing it (once) then deciding that what she had said first was what she wished to stick with- remember?

Missy, cool! Thanks for the testimony about the front door!

[Yooper]

I'm just a bit confused, something isn't clear. Bridget let Andrew in the front door, having to first unlock the three locks somehow between the two of them. This puts Bridget inside the house, and she probably didn't come in through the front door! She would have entered through the side door and gone through the kitchen to get to the sitting room in order to wash the inside glass. She was at least somewhere within hearing range of the front door to be aware someone was trying to get in with a key. Bridget didn't see Lizzie in the kitchen when she came back into the house from outside. Lizzie saying she didn't see Bridget means that either Lizzie let Andrew in or Andrew let himself in.

[bob_m_ryan]

If that is true, then Bridget and Lizzie are in it together 'cuz both are lying. Why would they need to say that Bridget let Andrew in if either he let himself in or Lizzie did?

[Kat]

When we compare Bridget and Lizzie, I think it's a fair cursory conclusion to draw (for speculations' sake) that If Lizzie did not see Bridget then Bridget did not see Lizzie.
We do have that one little soft spot where Lizzie finally answered that she "might have seen her [Bridget], and not know it"- that could look like Lizzie was trying at least to recall. It sounds rather human of her to admit that.

Or it could mean that Lizzie pays no attention to what Bridget is doing usually.
Or it could mean she is implying that since she didn't see Bridget, what was the maid up to?

[Yooper]

We have another little soft spot where Lizzie recalls Andrew being downstairs with her until ten o'clock. Was the rest of her recollection as accurate?