If Bridget would have gone shopping

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:38 pm

Yes, hot water therapy is advised for immediate relief- and I have resorted to that 2-3 times in a night. It brings relaxation and stimulates blood flow to the affected area. Sometimes it is enough- with a percocet-but without breaking up the stone, there is always the ever-present risk of one moving again- with no warning. It's the not knowing when it will happen that is tough- whether to take a vacation, etc., always worrying. My doc said the 10 hours drive down to MD, right after a 3 week bout with flu may have triggered the shifting of the 7 stones I had last month. Prevention through altering the fluid chemistry in the kidney is a lifelong commitment for stonemakers. B6 and magnesium (found in Theralith vitamin supplements), extra fluid- at least 8 ounces every 2 waking hours, citrus drinks, and a modified diet based on your type of stone is the only sure-fire way to reduce the risk. Most sufferers have calcium-oxalate stones. That means limited chocolate, green leafy veg, no nut butters, beets, nuts, most berries- see this great list http://www.branwen.com/rowan/oxalate.htm
And now, back to our regularly scheduled program. . . .

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:22 am

partial quote from twinsrwe:

Well, obviously people are reading this ad two different ways - I am still reading it as meaning the sale was on Friday, only. Granted everyone is entitled to their opinions, however, I tend to put a great deal of faith in what Mr. Rebello states in his book; Harry, posted the following taken from Mr. Rebello's book which states the ad appeared in the evening edition on August 4th. So, are you saying that Mr. Rebello's information may be incorrect?

--Well, a lot has been found out or taken note of since Len's book came out in 1999. I don't mean necessarily by me-but by a lot of different people. My memory is along the lines of an updated idea about that ad, not too long ago- in a phone conversation with Fall River or while visiting up there. I can't verify that tho. I'd have to make a couple of phone calls, which I probably won't do.

I think when Mr. Rebello reprints his book, he may revise with more info he has worked on in the last 9 years.
So to answer you- no- I don't doubt Len in this- just that there may be updated info.
If I find out I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it, I promise.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:37 am

Thanks, Kat.

I know new and updated information is being uncovered; I just haven't heard anything different, than what is in Mr. Rebello book, on this particular ad.

Is Mr. Rebello going to reprint his book? That would be wonderful and if he adds updated information, that would be awesome!

I will also be the first to admit I am wrong - after all we are all human beings and we all make mistakes.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:01 am

I plan to go back to Monday's papers and check the ads for the week, tomorrow morning from FR Public Library. Len seems to think that the ad was in Thursday evening's paper, and is pretty certain, but it has been a long time since his book came out and of course every little detail can't be recalled with certainty now. Hopefully a revised Past and Present is in the works eventually-but now his new works are professional publications. Unfortunately, the ad I posted on the previous page has had the date cut off the top! If I find the answer conclusively tomorrow morning, I will post it from the library.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:51 am

Thanks, Shelley. I look forward to hearing from you. I'll keep my fingers crossed that you find what we are all wanting to know.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:08 am

Thanks, Steve, for the warm water idea. Hopefully I will not have to use it.

Robinson at the trial (p1706), in his closing argument touches upon the Sargent sale:

"... And she spoke to her about the cheap sale at Sargent's, and there is no doubt about that being true, because they could readily find out in Fall River whether there was any cheap sale at Sargent's at that time. ..."

We don't know if the police ever looked into that. Though it would seem to me if they had and there wasn't a sale the prosecution would have mentioned it.

I noticed that the ad included Bedford Cord at the sale price of 12-1/2 to 15 cents a yard. When Emma testified at the trial (p1538) about the dress burned she stated:

"Q. What kind of material was it as to cost? Do you know what the price of it was?
A. Very cheap.
Q. Do you know, have you any idea what it cost?
A. It was either 12-1/2 cents a yard or 15 cents."

Maybe Lizzie picked up the material at a prior sale.

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:53 am

The reason I feel confident about the day of the ad is because I spent 10 years doing newspaper advertising. It would have been common to state the sale was "Tomorrow, Friday" in an ad in Wednesdays paper.

I'm sure the ad WAS in Thursdays paper...perhaps Fridays paper as well. Generally an ad is run during the days the sale would be on. But I believe it was also in Wednesdays paper.

Looking at the ad, it tells ME it was designed for a two day sale, Thursday (which is referred to as tomorrow) and Friday. And it would have been designed to begin it's run on Wednesday.

I am in no way disputing the fact that it was in Thursday paper..but I think Lizzie either saw it in Wednesdays paper, or heard of the sale previously. How many times do we hear of a sale in advance?

If that ad did not run in Wednesdays paper, then I think it just did not make it into the paper for some reason...more than likely too late for publication. I'm still betting it was a two day sale, though.

If the ad ran in Thursdays evenings paper ONLY, it would make absolutely no sense to use the wording "Tomorrow, Friday". That would have been poor composition of an ad. "Tomorrow, Friday" just makes no sense at all.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:01 pm

Yeah, I agree Sally. How I WISH they had just simply said SALE: THURSDAY and FRIDAY. It is a very odd way of posting the days. It does make more sense if it had been in Wednesday night's paper. I even bugged Len about it this morning and he still recalls it being Thurs. evening. Ah well, sports fans- the answer is on the way tomorrow.

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:31 pm

Shelley @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:01 pm wrote:Yeah, I agree Sally. How I WISH they had just simply said SALE: THURSDAY and FRIDAY. It is a very odd way of posting the days. It does make more sense if it had been in Wednesday night's paper. I even bugged Len about it this morning and he still recalls it being Thurs. evening. Ah well, sports fans- the answer is on the way tomorrow.

It is odd, isn't it? But it seems the language during that period is different than what we are used to today. I've studied vintage advertising and it's always interesting to read...but not what we would expect to see in todays paper..and it's confusing at times to todays population. The premise would have been that people were reading Wednesdays paper, so "tomorrow" would be Thursday. I've seen many old ads with the wording "Sale Tomorrow" or "Tomorrow only", etc.

If papers came out in the evening, then it may have not run in Friday evenings paper, since the sale would have been over by then. But it would have been in Thursdays paper, and I suspect Wednesdays paper, too.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:32 am

Thanks for the neat bit of information SallyG. It helped to maybe clear a few things up for me, and what you said made a lot of sense.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:57 pm

Well. I pulled up all the ads for Sargent from July 26-August 6th. I will scan some of these and post them. Seems like all the stores in Fall River were having summer clearance sales and advertising heavily. Sargent's had huge ads on the front page of the Herald daily the week of the murder, and in the Fall River Daily Evening news as well. ALL the ads for Sargent's appeared in the paper the NIGHT BEFORE the sale of whatever items were going to be on sale the NEXT DAY. So the ad I posted on the previous page appeared in THURSDAY's paper for the Friday sale. Sargent's featured certain items every day which were different. The exciting thing is this- that cheap sale of dress goods we're are all interested in was NOT going on Thursday- it was in the Thursday afternoon paper but the DAY for it was FRIDAY! When you see "Tomorrow, Friday" it means Friday ONLY. This is his advertising pattern for the whole week. In fact, in July Sargent advertises a month of Summer Clearance. I will scan the various ads. Interesting. I also stopped by the old Sargent's building (what's left of it) and chatted with the gal who works in the office there-which is a surveying business. She rents a small portion of the back of the space and told me she works late there on her craft business and the place is haunted

She says she hears footsteps regularly pacing the second floor. Maybe Bridget has come back to get that dress fabric at last!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:53 pm

Shelley, I can't thank you enough for all the trouble you went through; it is greatly appreciated. Very interesting find; this certainly cast suspicion on Lizzie, big time, doesn't it?

It is still possible Lizzie heard about this sale earlier in the week, or maybe she was just confused and thought Sargent's item on sale for Thursday was for dress goods.

Then again, since Lizzie denied making the dress goods statement to Bridget, she may have known exactly what she was doing...

I'm looking forward to your scans the various ads.

So, the old Sargent's building is also haunted? Interesting - maybe it's Lizzie shopping for a sale on Bedford Cords!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:26 pm

Oh, I LOVE field work and hands-on stuff-it's the only way to get to the bottom of things! Yes, Lizzie may easily have heard about the sale during the week, as Sargent's was having something every single day on sale. Thing is, I wonder how she had heard about the cheap sale of dress yardage because that was not until Thursday afternoon- UNLESS of course, Sargent's also posted window flyers on Main Street . Or just maybe Lizzie saw it posted in Smith's pharmacy on Wednesday while she was working up the nerve to ask for Prussic Acid!

I also made one or two other startling discoveries in the newspapers for that week which may have some interesting tie-ins of testimony we will hear later! I will scan all of this tomorrow- it was a late night last night so I am about to drop over. We had 11 at the house including a 10 month old baby and a cute little 6 year old who was totally unflapped about Lizzie and the house. Her Mom, was not- and she is in law enforcement!

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:34 am

Wow...facinating. I would have absolutely sworn that it was a two day sale. But if that's how Sargents did their wording, then I guess that was their style and readers were aware of what it meant. It contradicts everything I was taught about wording advertising, but Shelly has proven it WAS a Friday sale.

I am anxious to see the other interesting information she found!!

That certainly casts a new light on Lizzie's statement. Either she was mistaken and thought the sale WAS Thursday, or she outright lied to Bridget to get her out of the house! In view of her subsequent actions, I lean toward the latter.

Well, darn...I was wrong about that ad. Oh, well...not the first time I have been wrong and it won't be the last, I'm sure!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:58 pm

Shelley, I wish I'd been with you. Your trip to Fall River sounds like it was not only interesting, but fun, as well. I am now more eager than ever since you stated you also found a couple of other interesting things which may tie-in.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:59 pm

Sally, the language used during that period in time had to have been different than what one would use in today's world of advertising. You only posted what you have been taught. Please don't think anything of it; your input is very valuable and much appreciated.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:55 am

I was glad to see the new topic on that ad. I posted my comment there.
Thanks Shell!

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:37 pm

SallyG @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:31 am wrote:
Shelley @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:01 pm wrote:Yeah, I agree Sally. How I WISH they had just simply said SALE: THURSDAY and FRIDAY. It is a very odd way of posting the days. It does make more sense if it had been in Wednesday night's paper. I even bugged Len about it this morning and he still recalls it being Thurs. evening. Ah well, sports fans- the answer is on the way tomorrow.
It is odd, isn't it? But it seems the language during that period is different than what we are used to today. I've studied vintage advertising and it's always interesting to read...but not what we would expect to see in todays paper..and it's confusing at times to todays population. The premise would have been that people were reading Wednesdays paper, so "tomorrow" would be Thursday. I've seen many old ads with the wording "Sale Tomorrow" or "Tomorrow only", etc.

If papers came out in the evening, then it may have not run in Friday evenings paper, since the sale would have been over by then. But it would have been in Thursdays paper, and I suspect Wednesdays paper, too.

It is odd the way words were selected and used back then, Sally. Just reading some of the ads and books published in Lizzie's day gives me a "what are you talking about" feeling. In some ways I think it is kind of "quaint." I read "Helen's Babies" years ago and I remember thinking how quaint the word structure was. Odd but kind of nice. Not to mention confusing at times.

-1bigsteve (o: