Was it a Blend?

[augusta]

This may sound far-fetched, but I happened to think today. (And, yes, some days me happening to think is far-fetched... )

I've never heard it mentioned in anything Lizzie I've read.

When Lizzie gave different people different answers as to what she was looking for in the bahn that morning,

"Tin to fix a screen".
"Lead for really cheap sinkers" -

is there any sense in the thinking of maybe she went to the bahn and did both searches?

[Allen]

Well it is possible. But if that was the case why didn't she state that in testimony when asked about the reasons she was in the barn? There was no mention made of a screen or the tin needed to mend it. She was asked repeatedly if she had told all she had done in the barn, and whether that should've occupied her there for 15-20 minutes. All she stated was she was eating pears, and looking for lead to make sinkers.

[snokkums]

I think there is a possibly that she was there getting both, too.I think she might have been doing everthing she said she was doing that day. But I think the police weren't looking at that way, and Lizzie didn't have anyone backing her up as to what she was doing.

[Shelley]

I recall reading the screens were checked, and there was no broken screen which needed mending. Anybody got that statement?

[Harry]

Robinson, in his closing statement at the trial, puts forth that same argument (p1666):

"... She said she wanted some lead for sinkers. She also said she wanted something to fix the screen. Perhaps she had both things in her mind. It is perfectly natural. She wanted a piece of tin or iron to fix the screen. If she had set out to be this arch criminal that they claim, she would have had it all set down in her mind so that she would tell it every time just the same, line for line and dot for dot. ..."

Knowlton, is his closing (p1822+) had this to say about the screen:

"... Why could we not have had somebody to have told us what was the screen that needed fixing, and to have corroborated that story by finding the piece of iron that was put into the screen when she was left alone and when she came back in her fright?..."

Does it sound like he thought she brought the screen with her?

I'll look around to see if I can find a source of the police doing a search.

[Harry]

Found this in that source of all sources, Lincoln (p108):

"... Miss Russell had been in the dining room with Bridget when Dr. Bowen had asked the now familiar question. At this point, she repeated it in her turn, and when Lizzie only murmured something about the barn she asked, "What did you go to the barn for, Lizzie?"
On this fourth run-through, Lizzie became more specific: "I went to get a piece of tin or iron to fix my screen."
(At the trial, Miss Russell emphasized it: "She said, 'my screen."' The emphasis was pointless, since a search, carefully overseen by Lizzie's lawyer, had revealed that no screen in the house was loose or in other than perfect shape.)"

Sounds like another Lincoln-ism to me. Can't find anything to corroborate Jennings overseeing a search.

[Allen]

Knowlton appears to be stating they found no corroboration that any screen needed mending, no corroborating evidence in the form of any iron brought back to the house on her return. To read further, which also seems to indicate some sort of search, Knowlton says "show us the fish line that those sinkers went on. It was easy to do if they were in existence; if there was any truth in the story, show us something by which we can verify this ferocious fact, that the alibi she was driven to put for herself, was a good one..." It seems someone had tried to corroborate the story. But who and when?


Here is what Lizzie had to say at the inquest about what she was doing in the barn.

Inquest testimony Lizzie Borden page 74-75:

Q. Did you look for anything else besides lead?
A. No, sir.

Q. When you got through looking for lead did you come down?
A. No, sir, I went to the west window over the hay, to the west window, and the curtain was slanted a little. I pulled it down.

Q. What else?
A. Nothing.

Q. That is all you did?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is the second story of the barn?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was the window open?
A. I think not.

Q.Hot?
A. Very hot.

Q. How long do you think you were up there?
A. Not more than fifteen or twenty minutes, I should not think.

Q. Should you think what you have told me would occupy four minutes?
A. Yes, because I ate some pears up there.

Q. Do you think all you have told me would take four minutes?
A. I ate some pears up there.

Q. I asked you to tell me all you did.
A. I told you all I did.

Q. Do you mean to say you stopped your work, and then additional to that, sat still and ate some pears?
A. While I was looking out the window, yes sir.

Q. Will you tell me all you did up in the second story of the barn?
A. I think I told you all I did that I can remember



I did find this bit in the trial testimony.

Trial Testimony of Philip Harrington page 570:

Q. What was the temperature in the loft of the barn?
A. As to degrees, I cannot say, but it was extremely hot.

Q. Did you notice anything as to the dust at that time?
A. Yes, sir, it was very dusty, very uninviting, the floor, bench and hay, old fashioned fire-place which stood in the north-west corner of the barn, and some window screening and binding cords---things that were covered with dust.

(edited to fix an error in my translation of the transcript, it should be screening not screen.)

[Allen]

sorry double post.

[mbhenty]

,,

[Nadzieja]

The other thing I found in the inquest testimony, p150, Alice Russell is speaking. Q. And she said she was in the barn? A. That she went to the barn.
Q A piece of tin for the screen in WHICH (Bold is mine) window?
A. A piece of tin or iron. she says "you know there is everything up there, and I went to see if I could not get a piece of tin or iron to fix it." The screen or the window, I don't know which she was going to fix.

She was asked directly about which window, but didn't answer, and didn't mention if Lizzie mentioned which window.

[Allen]

Alice indicated previously in her testimony that Lizzie told her that her screen and window "did not come together right." Why she didn't answer the direct question with a direct answer is a little odd.

Inquest testimony of Alice Russell page 150:

Q. Do you remember of anything that Lizzie said about it, that remains in your memory?
A. No, I have not asked her but one question all through it.

Q. Will you tell me what that is?
A. Yes, Sir, I asked her what she went to the barn to do. She says my screen and window--she gave me to understand they did not come together right, or something," I was ironing handkerchiefs, and my flat iron was not hot, and I thought I would go and get that while I was waiting."

Q. What did she say she went to get?
A. A piece of tin or iron to fix the screen. I found the handkerchiefs part ironed, part damp. I took the damp ones and shook them out.

[mbhenty]

,,

[Allen]

"What is life? A madness. What is life? An illusion, a shadow, a story. And the greatest good is little enough; for all life is a dream, and dreams themselves, only dreams."

Very nice.

[Shelley]

Lizzie may have mentioned screens because she knew there was a stack of screens up there, and that the police would go up to search and see those screens there, which would give some substance to her story about going up to find something to fix her screen with. It would have been a better story to say she was going up to see if she could not find a screen to substitute for the one which needed mending or changing. I agree about the dust and dirt factor- that seems more important than footprints in the dust. Doing all she said she did up in the loft, she ought to have been dusty or dirty, at least her hands and probably the hem of her skirt.

[Allen]

That's a very real possibility Shelley. That crossed my mind when I read that bit of testimony. If she knew those things were in the barn, she could state she had been looking for them. I am one that tends to believe Lizzie was never in the barn at all. Her story about why she went there was constantly evolving, until she settled on the lead for sinkers. If she really had been up there doing all those things, why did she not state that in her testimony? She didn't state she was looking for iron to fix a screen, and lead for sinkers, and eating pears. Though she was asked repeatedly what she could've been doing up there that would occupy her for 15-20 minutes, to tell all she had done, she only mentions the lead.

She also stated that she heard a groan to at least one person that day. By the inquest she had heard no noise at all. Lizzie had settled on her permanent alibi and refined it for future retelling. Why she was so all over the place with her alibi for Abby's murder I am not sure. Except that she couldn't put herself outside because Bridget was there washing windows. She had to be in the house somewhere. How do you claim to be in a house where an axe murder occurred and never see or hear anything while you are wide awake at the time? You couldn't be sleeping or you'd have been in your room right next to the crime. I think that's why she had such a hard time with that one. She was forced to say Abby got a note to go out to keep Andrew and Bridget from looking for her, and to explain why she did not think it odd she hadn't seen Abby that morning. She then had to stick to that.

Lizzie states she was in the barn doing these things, yet brings nothing back into the house at all. Her story constantly changes in the beginning. It was hot and dusty in the barn, yet she is clean and there is no evidence in her appearance she had ever been there. The dust on the floor is not disturbed. There are just too many things that point to her not being there.

[Shelley]

I agree, I doubt she was ever in the barn either. The thing that finally convinced me was the pear-eating story, which is ridiculous. When I go into my hayloft, I go up there and do what I need to do, and get out as quickly as possible. I have never had a picnic up there, stopped to eat fruit, or ponder the mysteries of life. Haylofts are stuffy, filled with haydust, bugs and old junk- not a place in which to sojourn leisurely on an August day. Yes, the "I heard a scraping sound", "I heard a groan" and the differing reasons for going up there strain our belief to the breaking point. I think the pear eating episode was added for good measure to extend the time she was up there. When the question was asked, her eye may have strayed to the pears on the table, and a ready answer was born right then and there. By the by, anyone standing out in the yard on the side of the house or at the steps cannot hear a groan in the sitting room unless they are standing beneath the diningroom windows, (preferably the westernmost one) which has to be open, the diningroom and sitting room doors open, and the groaner is groaning with gusto. I doubt anybody with Andrew's head wounds lived long enough to make a loud groan.
Thing is, if she were so gung-ho for sinker metal, why not have asked Andrew that morning before he went out. "Hey, Dad- I'm going fishing Monday- got sinkers"?

[mbhenty]

,,

[augusta]

Thanks for posting testimonies that had to do with this, Allen and Harry! I had not read before that Lizzie told Alice Russell that her window didn't come together.

I also didn't know that Lizzie was referring to her window, which must mean one of her bedroom windows. That should have been easy to check out by just Alice herself, or anyone. The policemen must not have known she said her own window, otherwise why did they check out every window in the house?

I think there is an argument against the "Lizzie left no footprints in the bahn" statements. Somebody got on the stand and said they, too, went in the barn and left no footprints. Anyway, it cancelled out Lizzie's 'no footprints' testimony.

I put no stock in Lizzie's inquest testimony. I believe she was flying on morphine. You try taking that stuff and see what you find yourself saying and remembering. She said to Knowlton, "I don't even know what your name is!" I believe that. And I believe she may not have even known what her own name was just then.

One of the cops that questioned Lizzie the afternoon of August 4, I think it was Philip Harrington, cautioned her about her fixing the time she was in the barn. Then she immediately added the pears on, I think. In any event, she upped her time spent up there after he said that.

Excellent point, mb, that Lizzie may not have been able to stand hearing her father gettting killed. I think you are probably right. I also agree with the Third Party Theory.

I don't think Lizzie was unprepared for her alibi. That was the most important thing to be ready for after the murders. But, if she was prepared for it, why is it so incomplete?

Some people tolerate heat better than others. I can't stand hardly any. I know people who can take it hot for a long period of time, and I know people who can't take hardly any like me.

It is a rotten alibi. If she were giving a prepared one, you'd think she could do a lot better than that. Almost anything would be better than that.

"I was in the privy in the bahn." "I fainted and remember nothing." "I got sick in the bahn from the heat, and it took me some time to get my bearings." "I saw a man waving a bloody hatchet running out the back door!"


You can never have enough Lizzie suspects. - S. Chapman

[SallyG]

Does anyone remember if the dress Lizzie claimed to be wearing that morning had a train? Even a short one? My point is that unless the dress touched the tops of her shoes all around, any sort of train would have disturbed the coating of dust on the floors.

I'll have to look that up...

[Tina-Kate]

I seem to recall testimony about the bedford cord...was it the seamstress or Emma??...anyway, it was stated the bedford cord was made a few inches longer than Lizzie generally wore her dresses.

Of course, there is also the argument of whether or not the bedford cord was the dress she was wearing that morning. I tend to believe it was.

[Kat]

In response to Augusta:

One of the cops that questioned Lizzie the afternoon of August 4, I think it was Philip Harrington, cautioned her about her fixing the time she was in the barn. Then she immediately added the pears on, I think. In any event, she upped her time spent up there after he said that.

Harrington said in his prelim testimony (392) that Lizzie said she was in the barn 20 minutes:
So I asked her then if she had any suspicion of anybody. She said no. Then I asked her how long she was in the barn. She said twenty minutes. I asked her, could she give the exact time. She said twenty minutes. I said "is it not hard to fix the exact time; was it not half an hour?" She said, no, it was 20 minutes. I said possibly it was 15. She said no it was 20 minutes I was in the barn. I then told her I thought it would be well for her to be careful what she said at this time, owing to the excitement. I said perhaps on the morrow she would be in a better frame of mind to give a more clear statement of the facts as she knew them. She made a curtesy, and said "no, I can tell you all I know now just as well as at any other time."

It always sounded like a sort of reactionary stubborn answer, like she felt he was being impertinent asking her more than once. (She may well have felt that way.)
Anyway, Lizzie always seems to have replied "20 minutes" altho Fleet in the Witness Statements (pg 2) says she said 1/2 an hour.
The team of Doherty/Harrington say Hiram says she said 20 minutes or half an hour, in the W.S. pg. 11.

Maybe it is felt that Lizzie added on time by claiming a bit late in her story that she spent a little time under the pear tree? 4 or 5 minutes. That was at the inquest. [88(45)] That would "up" her time outside maybe, if she did not count that herself as barn time...

[1bigsteve]

I have always felt that Lizzie may have been looking for both. A strip of metal to fix a lose screen and a chunk of lead to make a fishing sinker out of. I often go out to my garage to look for two or three items at once. Of course by the time I get out there I often forget what I'm looking for.

Perhaps Lizzie meant she was looking for both items but didn't feel it was all that important to make herself perfectly clear on that point?

-1bigsteve (o:

[Kat]

When I go out to my garage I have to keep repeating over and over what I'm looking for, else I get way-laid.

(You can tell I'm back to Safari, BigSteve- my fancy smilies are missing.)
Let's see yours...

[1bigsteve]

You have a browser called "Safari" Kat? I never heard of that one. I have yet to download Firefox, been too busy for much of anything. I do have some cute smilies in My Documents, in the My Photographs section but I don't know how to get them added to my post in the exact place without them being added at the bottom as an "attachment." I'll get to work on it.

When I go to my garage for something I have to make a note of what I'm looking for other wise I'll forget. I'll just stand there thinking, "Duh, what did I come out her for, uh... oh crap!" Sometimes I forget to bring the note. I bought a book about how to improve our memory but I keep forgetting to read it. In fact I've forgotten where I put it. It's probably in the garage. I'll have to make a note to go find it. I need to clean out my garage but I need to get boxes to put stuff in but I keep forgetting to get some. I should make a note.

I wonder if Lizzie forgot what it was she went to the barn for and just gave the police the two things that popped into her head? Maybe she wasn't sure which item she had gone out for and gave the police two different answers. "I think it was for a sinker, but maybe it was a piece of tin to fix my screen?"

-1bigsteve (o:

[Uozumi]

If Lizzie was just lying about being in the barn why not just add to it? When asked what she was doing in the barn why didn't she just talk about what she knew was in there? Or added something they couldn't prove. Did she really think that they wouldn't find out that Abby was dead for a good deal of time?

Steph

[Kat]

And remember that if Abby died around 9 a.m. Bridget has no alibi either. Neither Bridget nor Lizzie have an alibi for Abby even as late as 9:15.
So if Abby was killed around the time Andrew left, then Bridget can fudge a bit on the time she was out vomiting. And she could be vomiting because she had seen Abby dead or being killed.


As an aside: not too long ago I wanted to fix a screen. My problem was that the screen was a bit warped and lizards could sneak in at the bottom--so what good was that? I used aluminum foil to plug the area, which has worked. Lead was malleable and sort of soft back then? Could she mold it to fix something (I don't picture foil, of course...)

[Kat]

Does anyone know if there were screens kept in the barn?

[Allen]

I did find this bit in the trial testimony.

Trial Testimony of Philip Harrington page 570:

Q. What was the temperature in the loft of the barn?
A. As to degrees, I cannot say, but it was extremely hot.

Q. Did you notice anything as to the dust at that time?
A. Yes, sir, it was very dusty, very uninviting, the floor, bench and hay, old fashioned fire-place which stood in the north-west corner of the barn, and some window screening and binding cords---things that were covered with dust.

(edited to fix an error in my translation of the transcript, it should be screening not screen.)

It appears that there was window screening found in the barn.

[Kat]

Thanks for the informed reply and the edit for clarity!