Were the Borden Murders planned?

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:26 pm

I was just sitting here thinking about the Borden case for the millionth time and wondered how much of it could have been planned in advance? Abby’s trip to the spare room wasn’t planned was it? So it couldn’t have been planned that she would be killed at that time in that place, she probably didn’t even know herself that she was going to the guest room until she actually decided to.
Also Andrew didn’t know he was going to arrive home when he did either, he felt ill so that’s why he headed off home earlier, so the murderer didn’t know when he would arrive back home, if he’d come back an hour later would he have been killed? The more I’ve read about this case the more it seems to me that it was a spur of the moment rage of a decision, that by pure chance and police stupidity led the killer to go undetected, it’s been noted that Abby told a lie the morning of the murders, telling Lizzie she had a note and had to go out, but she was really going to meet Andrew to sign papers about a will, could this be true? And if so spurred Lizzie to kill? but then it will be asked why didn’t Andrew confront Lizzie about Abby’s whereabouts in a more suspicious way when he arrived home? Well maybe he did and that’s why he died, maybe Andrew was told about Abbys demise by the murderer (Lizzie) and then was killed himself. However far fetch this sounds I just think the whole story about the murders being planned a bit suspect. How can you plan something like this in advance that all leads to chance encounters? If they were going to meet such grizzly ends and it was planned why not chop em’ up as they slept in the middle of the night, when you know exactly where they will be? I wonder how many on this forum truly believe that the crimes were planned in advance? Admittedly in other ways it’s a good day for a killing, for starters almost the entire Police force was out of Fall River (I’m sure this was common knowledge?) Emma was away, Uncle Morse had left, leaving two woman alone in the house waiting for Andrew to come home, also if it’s planned in advance why didn’t Lizzie go out, unless that’s exactly what she intended to do when Andrew came home early? I also think that Lizzie looked more guilty for not having blood on her dress, in her own words she said she came in from the barn and saw her father on the sofa, but she didn’t run into the room and touch him to see if he was still alive, where she would have gotten blood on her clothes if she had held her beloved father in her arms waiting for a doctor. instead she calls the maid to get a doctor then stands outside until a neighbour comes along, that’s suspicious action number 1, the second is her mention of thinking she heard Abby come home, but only remembers this when Abby is mentioned by somebody else, Christ somebody has been murdered and you think you heard another person come home and you don’t call out for them? Those two things alone in my mind point a huge finger of suspicion onto Lizzie as the murderer; ok we can say that she got somebody else to do the deed, but who? And why would they help? And again if somebody else has done the deed for her that would have had to have been planned, what did she say “come on over and sit in the closet, hopefully Abby will go to a room alone and Papa will come home early!” How much Bridgett knew or heard is up for suspicion as indeed is Uncle Morse returning and staying around like he did, but I think those are the three suspects with Lizzie as the prime number one candidate. even if we cross these three off the list it’s still all down to chance encounters, you cannot plan to assassinate someone when those themselves do not know where they will be at any given time. Oh, pshaw, glad I got that off me chest, now I can go and have some Mutton broth!

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:00 pm

While I don't believe it was planned in a Watergate-like manner, one way to get Abby to that guest room would be to have someone - let's say a trusted uncle - come and stay the night, necessitating that the guest room bed be made up on Thursday...

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:46 pm

But Abby had already made up the guest room and come back downstairs with no harm done to her, she only went back up to the room again to put some slips on the pillows, I don't know maybe Lizzie was correct in that she saw the door closed, the murderer could have stayed in that room with Abby lying dead before sneaking out to kill Andrew on there way down the stairs and out of the backdoor.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:55 pm

But was it just a guess that Abby would be making up the guest bed? She might have ordered Bridget to do it. I do not think it was planned either, because Mr. Borden came home early and unexpected. If it was planned, then why not kill them as they sleep? Another thing that bothers me is the positions of the bodies when found. There had to be some clean up, and the bodies looked arranged if you will. Papa looks like he was placed on the sofa, and Abby looks like she was turned over face down. For such a violent attack, somebody definitely had to do some cleaning up. I suspect Bridget had a hand in that, carrying her bundles right under the police's noses!

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:02 pm

I think there is another post on the forum somewhere where the position of the bodies are discussed, I think it was mentioned that it was possible they were moved slightly before being photographed, Abby may have been tidied up a bit, skirt pulled into shape etc, not sure where I read this, but thought it was on the forum somewhere? either way they look kind of odd, but i'm in two minds of how much Bridgett knew, sure she could have taken the weapon clothing with her when she ran out of the house, and she could have killed both elder Bordens as much as Lizzie could in the time that was allocated, but there is no motive that we know of, unless the Bordens knew of her alleged dark past? but it's not impossible for her to have known/seen things she did not tell.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:36 pm

It was noted that Lizzie was inside the screen door when help first came. Then she was sitting on the interior steps of the staircase to Andrew's room, then she was in the kitchen sitting on the rocker and then she was in the dining room on the lounge and then she went to her room, alone. (Sorry, I got carried away.) Anyway, I will always remember this, because she didn't run screaming from the house. She never left the house. (I thought that was creepy- if there was a killer around).

If Abby's murder was not pre-meditated, then where did the weapon come from? If it was a hatchet, then it's not quite like one was kept in the guest room. Granted, it would be hard to judge where any family member would be at any given time- but how much harder for an intruder?

I was thinking lately (a hint from John Douglas) that when Lizzie said Morse didn't do it, nor Bridget, nor anyone who worked at the farms, maybe instead of seeming to be heroic in her loyalty in that she really believed none of them did it, she wasn't really trying to divert attention from them- but rather draw attention to them?
I hadn't looked at it that way before because there was always someone trying to make me believe the opposite!

I don't know either if Andrew came home "early." I have heard that a lot as well. It wasn't a sure thing that Andrew would go out that day at all. However, Lizzie did give him a letter to Emma to mail and so he did go out and he did go to the Post Office:
Inquest
Lizzie
(59/16)
Q. What was the next thing that happened after you got down?
A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron.

I don't know the sequence of events. I don't know if Lizzie's letter got Andrew to go out, or if even tho he had her letter he might have said he still might not go to the PO.

If it was the same killer of both Abby and then Andrew, then we must account for the weapon being at hand in the guest room, and we must know that Andrew's murder at the least was premeditated because of the wait- the time-lapse between killings.
If one was slaughtered within 5 minutes of the other, the second one would still be pre-meditated, I believe.

We have questions here about the "dark past" snippet thrown out in the video about Bridget. Anyone know anything- any source? Bridget was asked about boyfriends and past jobs. It's possible- but what exactly?

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:17 pm

The only slightly gray area to Bridget's past that I know of is her high job turnover rate, but from what I can tell, she always had good references. I'm baffled, really.

--Lyddie

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:06 pm

Bridget didn't "do" the second floor at all, did she?

And we only have the pillow sham story from...? Jam, I think you're throwing us a lot on one thread. Many of these questions are probably better dealt with each in its own place.

Really, for all we know, Abby did finish the bed, and came back downstairs, only to have Lizzie tell her there was something she wanted to show her up there...or WHATEVER, if you follow me. We're never really going to know, you realize! It's part of the challenge, and part of the fun.

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:56 pm

Funny enough I do realize the case will never be solved! As for the thread, I was only writing what I felt at that moment and wondered what others felt about it being planned. Mostly everything about this case has been discussed on this forum, it took me a long time before I could pluck up the courage to begin writing bits and pieces and replying to others threads, I guess people can reply or ignore as they wish. I wouldn’t like to feel that I was spoiling anybody’s fun, or intruding in a forum where I felt I wasn’t welcomed.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:44 pm

Jamfaws, I enjoy what you have to say. This is all in fun. Don't worry about it.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:56 pm

Keep those threads and ideas coming jams. As a newbie, I often post things others have already talked about, so I am reluctant to jump in sometimes. I definitely think you are welcome by all!

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:01 pm

Oops! Sorry to all

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:17 pm

There are very few people who post to this forum who would be intentionally unkind or rude to anyone else who posts here.

If I may be so bold-- The post you may be offended by was made by someone who would never do such a thing.

Relax... Have some wine and smile....

It's all good...

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:37 pm

Relax... Have some wine and smile....

It's all good...
I think that's what Martha said just before she
went to prison

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:58 pm

Certainly don't hesitate to post whatever you wish to. There are lots of aspects of the case that continue to come up time and again in different threads. There's nothing wrong with rethinking things.

Right now, well since Halloween eve, we've got a whole new batch of members who are likely to to provoke new thoughts and add new perspectives. It's all for the good.

As far as the main question, I have to agree with Kat that there must be at least enough premeditation to get a hatchet upstairs into the guest room. They were generally in the cellar and Bridget states that she only brought wood to the kitchen stove that was precut. It would seem hatchets wouldn't have a use outside of the cellar or barn.

Something may have been planned for whenever the best opportunity came. If killing Abby was the primary goal, having Emma out of town, Bridget washing windows outdoors and Andrew off on his rounds would seem like a pretty good time to strike.

Whether Andrew was earlier than usual or not in returning home, it's possible that if he had arrived at home considerably later that morning, he'd have found Lizzie gone out, Bridget resting upstairs and no sign of his wife. He may very well have survived.

If Lizzie killed Abby--and I'm not stating that as fact--she may have planned on leaving before Andrew returned to give herself an alibi. Or she may have decided that Andrew had to die and that she'd better do it before somebody discovered the body upstairs.

If we believe the time difference between the times of the murders, Andrew's murder, at least, had to have even more premeditation than Abby's, because the killer had to have waited a considerable time to get Andrew.

Darn. I hate spotting a typo as I hit the submit button.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:09 pm

jamfaws:

god forbid you feel unwelcome. speak your mind.

i think Bob G might have been just trying to challenge you a little. he wouldn't have done so if you had not demonstrated so much thought and perception in the first place. see what i mean?

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:54 am

I wish I’d never sent the message now; I don’t want to feel that I’m some kind of moaning Minnie without a sense of humour! I guess I should think twice before replying, I guess I read it the wrong way, sorry Bob, I take on board what is said and if I post again I’ll try and keep it neat and sweet! Sorry to all, many thanks Aaron

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:53 am

Oh dear! I, too, am sorry for not remembering that you can't hear "tone of voice" in a post. I certainly didn't mean to hurt your feelings (and thanks to my friends here who said that before I had a chance to!). I think I felt blindsided by all of your thoughts and questions, but I should've replied with much less of an edge, to be sure!

Deeply sorry! Of course this is the ONLY place (this excellent site) to air your views on all things Borden.

Your cyber-colleague,
Bob G.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:28 am

Well I can go along with Victoria Lincoln's theory that when Lizzie said she went down cellar in the morning, she brought up the axe with her. Then she carried it upstairs with her concealed in the pile of laundry she said she carried up to her room.She makes a good point ,I think, that Lizzie offers alot of details to try to conceal details of the murder that no one even questioned.She wasn't an inventive liar, so if she mentioned something, there had to be a reason for explaining it away.So many little details, like explaining that she put a "stick" on the fire, which could've been the handle to the axe after she broke it off. Saying she burned a paper, to disguise the paper that was really burned...because it was observed that there were some type of rolled up papers burned in the stove because it still held its shape...will? deed to the farm?...oh well..now I'm getting carried away..and off the subject...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:58 am

I think Lizzie had planned to kill Abby, but was waiting for the
perfect opportunity to present itself.I also agree that she didnt plan to kill Andrew. I think she killed him because he knew what she'd done to Abby, or she was scared he would know.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:38 am

Well, if Lincoln wrote that Lizzie burned a paper or claimed she burned a paper, that is not in testimony anwhere, I don't think, and not true.
Also, the handle to the hatchet was supposedly in the cellar, in the box where the HH was found.
I think it was determined that that handle would be hard to burn, but I have not any experience with that.
A rolled-up looking pile of ashes in a cylindrical shape couldn't be the handle, but could be some sort of papers, possibly.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:20 pm

Ok, I checked out the cylindrical form of papers, seems it just comes from Lincolns book as far as I could tell so far. I'm wondering where she got that herself? But it was observed that some papers appeared to have been burned in the fire in the kitchen stove.In the Witness Testimony in a passage attribute to Daugherty and Harrington.

"The Doctor then said " it does not amount to anything", and taking the lid of the kitchen stove , he dropped the pieces in. There was very little fire in the stove, and the ashes which were on top looked as though paper had been burned there."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:15 am

Here is Phillip Harrington at the Preliminary:
393+
A. I then went down stairs through the front hall, through the sitting room and into the kitchen. As I entered the kitchen, I saw several officers, I cannot recollect them now, because I did not pay much attention to them, being so accustomed to see them around, one of them I think was Devine again. Dr. Bowen stood there close by the stove. I walked by him to the east---
Q. This does not in any way effect Dr. Bowen. For any reason did you look in the stove?
A. Not at all.
Q. Not at all? What did you see in the stove?
A. I was going to tell what he had in his hand. When he took the cover off the stove, the fire was very low, and there appeared to be, or there was, rather larger coal, or larger remains of something that appeared to be burnt paper, and it was quite large. I should say quite large judging from the size of the stove, comparatively speaking.
Q. Why did you say it looked like burnt paper?
A. Because I have seen burnt paper before, that is all the reason.
Q. Where was it?
A. On the back part of the fire place, or the fire part, whatever you call it, the fire part of the stove.
Q. You mean the place where the fire is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What sort of a fire was it that there was there?
A. I could not swear that, but there was a small red spot down in the center.
(Mr. Adams) Not a blood spot.
A. A small spark of fire there that looked to me like coal, but that I would not swear to.
Q. You could not tell whether it was a coal or wood fire?
A. No Sir; but that is the impression I had at the time, it was coal.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:24 am

Trial
Harrington
568
Q. Now then, what did you do with that paper?
A. I asked him again what they contained, and he said, "Oh, I think it is nothing. It is something, I think, about my daughter going through somewhere." He then turned slightly to his left and took the lid from the stove and threw the papers in, or the pieces in.

Q. Now then, did you observe anything as he lifted the lid from the stove?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Go on and state what you did and what you observed.
A. I noticed the fire box. The fire was very near extinguished. On the south end there was a small fire which I judged was a coal fire. The embers were about dying.

Page 568

It was about as large as the palm of my hand. There had been some paper burned in there before, which was rolled up and still held a cylindrical form.

Q. Now will you describe that roll of burned paper by measuring it with your hands, please?
A. Well, I should say it was about that long. (Indicating) Twelve inches, I should say.

Q. And how large in diameter?
A. Well, not over two inches.

--Well, he is more sure and more specific in June of 1893.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:02 am

Thanks Kat

...and yes he does seem to become more sure of what he saw. It does seem to be big enough to have been some kind of rolled up document.Which brings me back to my earlier question? But it's very hard to speculate about what it is and why it was burned, when we really cannot even say who burned it in the first place.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:01 pm

Yes, when you mentioned the stick Lizzie put on the fire- that could possibly be to hide something else burned- to explain the ashes.
If she had anything to do with all this ...

Wouldn't one think she would have stirred that up after it burned, even just to make sure whatever it was was all burned?
That could have been something she could have checked after sending Bridget away.
But she didn't.
It almost seems like someone did not have the chance to do that- maybe someone in a hurry to leave?

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Were the Borden Murders planned?

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