questions from a newbie

[Angel]

Hi
I have just joined- this is a very interesting site. I have some questions that may have been addressed before, but maybe someone can shed some light on them for me.
First, everyone has always wondered about the lack of blood on Lizzie, if she was the one who did it. Someone here mentioned that Mr. Borden's coat had been folded and placed beneath his head. Is it possible that Lizzie (or whoever) could have been wearing that coat when the murders were done and then put it under the father's head afterward? Everyone would expect blood to be on it if it was lying under his head, so no one would have inspected it closely.
Secondly, the position of Abby's body was so goofy that it makes me wonder if she had been kneeling by the bed at the time she was attacked instead of standing. Maybe she was picking something up from the floor or cleaning something under the bed or whatever. This would explain why no one heard her fall because she would have just keeled over frontwards with her rump up in the air and her feet the way they were. This could also explain the discrepancy in the height of the murderer. They said someone would have had to be tall to be able to hit her over the head, but, if she were kneeling, Lizzie, a short person, could have hit her at the same spot on her head.
And, lastly, could the blood from Abby have coagulated on the floor a lot faster because it went directly onto the floor, whereas Mr. Borden's blood seeped through the couch through many layers of fabric and stuffing onto the floor below?

[Nancie]

Welcome Angel, your questions and comments
are very good. I think you can click somewhere to
get to archives to read background on these issues.
Enjoy!

[Angel]

Thanks, Nancie. I have been doing just that - reading the archives, and it looks like a lot of people have observed the same things. I did have another question, though. Has anyone ever wondered why the miserly old guy would suddenly let his daughter take a 19 week tour of Europe? Going the route of the incest theory, that would be enough time for her to have left before a pregnancy would be obvious, and enough time to deliver a baby out of sight of anyone who knew them. Certainly a good motive for murder in the future.

[Nancie]

interesting Angel, but wouldn't her girlfriends on the
trip been aware of her condition? just seems
that we would have heard about it somehow??
Keep thinking though! that is what makes this case so fascninating. Noone knows diddley about anything, really. Any new ideas are refreshing!

[lydiapinkham]

Hi, Angel, and welcome! A lot of us have wondered about the coat as blood bib (I believe that theory goes back a long way); also we have discussed possible low postures for Abby when she got whacked. Neither idea is out of the running. The blood coagulation shouldn't be affected by the floorboards, I shouldn't think, but I think there is one theory that she was killed later than generally thought. Help me out here, guys--is it Forty Whacks or Lizze Didn't do It!? She was on the second floor in an unaired room. Some think her stomach contents were compromised by snacking. Even today time of death is not an exact science.

--Lyddie

[Kat]

Hi! Good questions!

I'm wondering did Bridget know or hear about Abby going into the guest room to change the pillow slips? I was seaching for this in the Preliminary Hearing and Bridget keeps saying the last she saw of Mrs. Borden was in the dining room with a feather duster.

If Lizzie made it up that Abby said she was going to the guest room, when we know that Abby rarely went to the guest room, maybe Abby wasn't in the room for the purpose we thought?
_____
We don't know that Andrew even wore tha coat that day, so there should have been some major questioning going on as to why it was there on the couch. If we had no crime scene experience at all we still would ask the question as to why that coat was there...
______

The experts thought a person of average height and weight could have done the deed- so I don't know where the tall person reference comes from?

Prelim.
101
Dolan
A. I said a person, not necessarily robust, I said an ordinary person in good health could do it. If you wish to eliminate this particular case, if you wish to say what degree of force it would require to kill a person, or to break a skull without the intention of killing, you can measure the degree then by saying a person of that character that I have said, a person in ordinary health, not necessarily robust, could with using moderate force, not their full force, or their entire force, but using moderate force, could break a skull.
Q. With a four or five pound hatchet?
A. Yes Sir.
......

Trial
Dolan
905
Q. In your opinion were the wounds that you found upon the skull of Mr. Borden such as could have been inflicted with a hatchet by a woman of ordinary strength?
A. Yes, sir.

MR. ADAMS. Well, wait a moment. Do you want that?

MR. KNOWLTON. (After a pause) You asked me to wait, so I am waiting.

MR. ROBINSON. We objected to it.

MR. KNOWLTON. I didn't hear you object.

MR. ADAMS. We do not insist upon the objection.

(The question was read.)

A. Yes, sir.

Page 906
________

As to the blood- in each case it seeped into the carpet.
The experts took into account of what material each carpet was made, and whether it would lie atop the carpet in Abby's case, and being exposed rather than soaking in, was more apt to coagulate than what Andrew's blood did in the sitting room carpet. They found not much difference as to the carpet fibre as to whether it soaked in or puddled atop- meaning whether it mattered in the investigation- I don't think they bothered too much about the carpet at the time at the scene. That's probably why they cut out the samples, because they themselves coulnd,'t make that determination as to blood samples used to help determine time of death.

I would suggest anyone read Dolan and Wood for blood evidence. I haven't really understood the carpet references, myself. Maybe someone can come up with something.

[Harry]

The experts thought a person of average height and weight could have done the deed- so I don't know where the tall person reference comes from?

Hi Angel and welcome.

Kat, the "taller" reference comes from Dr. Cheever's testimony at the trial (page 1104+)

"Q. Coming now to the injuries which you found upon the head of Mrs. Borden, I understand you to say that there are three which, in your opinion, may have been caused before she fell or was placed upon the floor?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Namely, the one in front covered by a flap and two upon the crown of the head?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The two upon the crown of the head, if she were standing, would they naturally have been given by a person who was taller than she, assuming that the instrument was a hatchet with a handle a foot long?
A. If she was standing upright they must have been given by a taller person.
Q. And a person quite a little taller?
A. Somewhat taller. I don't know how much.
Q. Well, as you stand upon the witness stand, you are, of course, taller than I am, sir, several inches. Now, will you indicate how you think that blow would have been given upon her head, the two blows on the crown, if you were the assailant and I the assaulted?
A. That way. (Mr. Adams stood with his back toward the witness, who held the hatchet over and near to the top of his head.)
Q. I do not see you, but I ask you to show the jury?
A. (The witness again illustrated how the blow could have been given.)
Q. The other injuries upon the skull, you say indicate the blows came both right and left, did you say so? I am taking them all together without asking you to separate them, and what is your answer?
A. The other injuries than those three?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. They are both ways.
Q. Both ways?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is, right to left, wood chopping fashion?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you formed and opinion where the assailant stood who assailed Mrs. Borden? In view of the spots on the wall, the injuries to her head? If you have, I would be glad to have you give it?
A. I have already said that I thought the blow on the scalp was given face to face; that the two blows on top of the head were uncertain whether they were given with her upright or lying down; but all the others were given with her lying upon her face. Now the position of the furniture as it has been described would render it easier for the assailant to give those blows upon the back of the head standing astride of the body, then getting in the awkward position, rather constricted, on either side; and I presume it was astride of the victim.
Q. Assuming that the instrument was a hatchet with a short handle?
A. Yes, sir.

Dr. Dolan is also quoted in the FR Herald of August 4 that the killer had to be tall. Kent and Williams both cite that article. I don't know how Dolan could have known much at that time when the "real" autopsy hadn't been perfomed yet.

[Kat]

Thanks Har! I had heard of the taller person before but I never knew from where it came!

Cheever wasn't quite on board with the same story as the rest?
I wonder if he was a free-thinker?

Now, please do tell me if Bridget knew of the pillow slip story?

[diana]

I had to hunt around for Bridget saying Abby was upstairs after breakfast too, and finally found this in the Witness Statements. Joseph Hyde interviewed Bridget on August 4 and "asked her what time Mrs. Borden
went upstairs. She said she thought it was a little before nine o’clock in the morning; and sometime after she came down for some pillow shams."

This doesn't say precisely that she was in the guest room -- although it does fit with Lizzie's inquest testimony that Abby said she had almost finished tidying that room and just had to put cases on the small pillows at the end of the bed.

[Harry]

Kat, this is from the Witness Statements, page 38

"JOSEPH HYDE
August 4, 1892. In talking to Bridget Sullivan on the above date I asked her what time Mrs. Borden went upstairs. She said she thought it was a little before nine o'clock in the morning; and sometime after she came down for some pillow shams. And she said to me, “have you anything particular to do?” Bridget answered “No mam.” Mrs. Borden said “I would like you to wash those windows.” I went out and washed the windows, and never saw Mrs. Borden again alive. "

At the Trial Bridget said Abby was dusting the door between the sitting and dining rooms when she told her about washing the windows. (page 226)

[Kat]

WHEW! I thought I was going crazy! I couldn't find it! I don't know why I ever doubted Bridget knew- Jeesh that's right in plain sight and I had the W.S. in my hand today too! Thanks!

Now, Lizzie may have had Bridget say that, or mentioned it to Bridget like the note story. That's my crazy "out" here. If Bridget was told to say that, then we don't know if that was the reason that Abby was in that room. I wonder if we could reasonably figure out another reason for Abby to be killed there? We never found those sheets if she changed the bed!!
I wouldn't have struck her down in my part of the house and soil a perfectly good room I was about to inherit. I would lure her down into the cellar... Bridget only collected window-washing stuff down there that day (besides the wood & coal at breakfast time)- her laundry was done and her ironing. Then I only need to unlock the outer cellar door. Voila!

[Angel]

I don't know anything about Lizzie's trip to Europe. Who did go with her?
What exactly is a "privy"? Is it just a room used for privacy, or is it like an outhouse, only indoors? If that is the case, could the murderer have thrown the axe into that?
As for the axe found on top of the next door neighbor's roof- how much was found out about that? Did anyone investigate it to see if it could have been the weapon? What has happened to it?
Is there any value at this date to use luminol in any part of the house, or is it way too late?

[Kat]

Diana/Harry: So what we see here is no Bridget on oath saying anything about pillow slips or why Abby was in the guestroom.
We have second-hand words out of Bridget to Hyde, paraphrased -and Bridget then does not testify to that *fact.*
Of course, we don't have her inquest testimony, but why would the state drop that point later?

[Wordweaver]

What exactly is a "privy"? Is it just a room used for privacy, or is it like an outhouse, only indoors? If that is the case, could the murderer have thrown the axe into that?

A privy is a toilet of whatever type. The Bordens had what's called an earth closet (a pit in the ground with a seat above it -- like an outhouse), rather than a water closet (AKA flush toilet). Yes, there were flush toilets then.

[Angel]

Has anyone ever written anything about Lizzie's life after the trial? If so, where would I find it?
Has any expert on modern criminal profiling ever written anything about her?

[Angel]

Wordweaver, they were so squeamish and proper about looking into the ladies' private stuff, so I suppose they wouldn't check out the bottom of that pit. Who knows, maybe that's where the murder weapon is. It certainly would have been a quick hiding place.

[Kat]

William has always assured us that there was running water to the privy in the cellar. It is more commonly called a water closet. It probably had a "pull." This question about the *pull* was asked at trial, but was not confirmed.
Here is Seaver at the Preliminary, being questioned about running water:

435
CROSS-EXAMINATION.

Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Is there any running water in the house anywhere?
A. I do not recollect that I saw any.
Q. What is there in the sink, a faucet?
A. Possibly there is some in the sink; I am not positive about that. In the other rooms of the house I did not see any.
Q. The City water is let into the house, is it not?
A. I think it is.
Q. There is a water closet down stairs, is not there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That must be run by City water?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. There is a faucet in the sink?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. No hot water in the house?
A. No Sir.
Q. No bath tub in the house?
A. No Sir.
Q. Nothing except the water closet down stairs, and the faucet in the sink?
A. That is all I saw.
Q. No other water in the house?
A. No Sir.

Actually, there was a sink near the side door in what was considered the kitchen, but it was way down that hall. There was a faucet with running water also in the barn, under the stairs near that side (south) door, and then the faucet in the sink room where Bridget did the laundry.

There was a "Privy" in the back of the barn. Bridget said the girls did not use it hardly but Mr. Borden did and sometimes Abby.

[Kat]

Has anyone ever written anything about Lizzie's life after the trial? If so, where would I find it?
Has any expert on modern criminal profiling ever written anything about her?

There is a topic on John Douglas' profile of the case of Lizzie Borden at:
viewtopic.php?t=506

There was another topic about this which you may find if you search the member Deputy name.

The Sourcebook has some news items which cover a period after the trial, thru 1927.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... k_code=as1

I think the FRHS still has copies of this as well. You would like it.