Andrew's routine

[joseph]

newbie here with some questions for the learned..

i've read thru the preliminary and some of the trial and i'm left with some head-scratchers.

the biggest one is why there weren't other questions asked that would seem to ferret out more information/evidence? but maybe i just haven't come across it yet.

for instance, did anyone ever establish what Mr. Borden's daily routine was? i know he was sick that day, and i presumed he came home early because of it. but it seems - fuzzy here - that i read somewhere that he may have been in the habit of returning home for dinner (which i'm presuming means lunch) every day.

that would answer a question for me - how could Lizzie (or whoever) count on Mr. Borden returning somewhere around that time?

but then that begs the question of how she might know or could have planned for him to come home earlier that day well before dinner? by dinnertime there would be another witness present and most would all be gathered in one place. what if Mr. Borden had come later and John Morse had beat him there? was there a 'plan B' that would cover leaving a dead body in the guest room all day with the door open? did Lizzie know that Morse was coming back for dinner? if so, it seems like the guest room would be the last place she'd want to off Abby.

was that enough questions? haha.. it just doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks
Joseph

p.s. sorry about the no-caps but then again i'm not. years of posting on bbs's and forcing my fingers to keep up with my brain has sealed the habit.

[DJ]

Hey, Joseph!
Maybe Lizzie didn't expect Mr. B home quite so early-- however, he was taking the "potent" medications, and it stands to reason he probably would be coming back sooner than if observing his regular schedule, because of his gastrointestinal upset. IOW, I don't think he threw her terribly off-guard.
It's sort of a wonder he went out at all, that a.m. Maybe Lizzie's Plan B WAS to get Bridget out to the cloth sale that afternoon, then to lure Abby upstairs, kill her, and then catch Mr. Borden in repose, or otherwise unawares.
Speaking of which, that was about the "safest" place to kill Abby, as neither Bridget nor Mr. Borden generally ever went in there, although it would have been not out of the ordinary for Abby to have been in there. The cellar could have been an alternative, although the guest room was a better bet.
Which brings up John Morse-- he didn't bring anything with him (besides, conveniently, Mr. Borden's last letter), so there would have been no reason for him to go back to that room, as he had nothing in there, and he wasn't planning to spend another night.

[Shelley]

There are a lot of unknowns in all of this. Seems Andrew must have had some familiar patterns -probably barber, post office for sure as mail did not come to the house daily. He was probably one of those sorts who liked to see to things personally, although we are guessing at that too. He stops to check on the window for Mr. Clegg that morning. And he stopped at three banks. I would bet he probably had a look at the A.J. Borden building, and a walk past his other properties fairly regularly too. Meals were regular in that house, and who could imagine Andrew wasting money dining out, so his at home mealtimes were probably pretty predictable. As he had no personal office, the word around town was he was likely to be at home before lunch daily if anybody wanted to see him on business. That would be, I suspect 11-12, as lunch or dinner was at noon.
I have never found any proof in testimony that Lizzie knew if John was going to return that day for lunch. All that conversation happened before Lizzie came down. I wished somebody had counted the place settings on the table that day!
The thing about those old timers- they were creatures of habit. On the day of the murders, Andrew may have been a little early coming back for dinner as he was still not feeling the best and he may have opted to come home a little early. Lizzie would have known he would have been home before dinner as usual. Yes, it might have been quite a story had Morse come home before Andrew. I rather suspect Lizzie did NOT know Morse was coming back- that's only my opinion though. If he had- there may have been one more corpse! Yes, I quite agree that killing Abby in the guest room would not have led to the body being speedily found if the killer had been thinking it all through ahead of time- but, if the killer were Lizzie, it was so much safer to do it upstairs. That way, Lizzie could say she was downstairs and heard nothing. It would be a neat trick to have had Abby butchered in the sitting room and have Lizzie in the kitchen and hearing nothing. She also could not know when Bridget might come in again, and as it turned out, Bridget did come in once more to get a dipper. Upstairs was the safer bet.

[kssunflower]

Welcome joseph!

I tend to agree with Shelley in that she really didn't know when Morse would return. What if he came back before or with Andrew with the complaint of not feeling well also. And then wanted to lie down in the guest room for awhile? That would have really thrown her plans awry! Unless, of course, he was somehow involved...?

[joseph]

thanks for the welcome!

Speaking of which, that was about the "safest" place to kill Abby, as neither Bridget nor Mr. Borden generally ever went in there, although it would have been not out of the ordinary for Abby to have been in there.

that makes sense. it stills boggles me that she left the door open.

He was probably one of those sorts who liked to see to things personally, although we are guessing at that too.

i believe you are right. i read somewhere (and i'll have to start keeping track of where i get this stuff) that he even collected the rents himself. * [checking for source]

I wished somebody had counted the place settings on the table that day!

no kidding! i've also wondered, and maybe i just haven't found it yet, if a search was made or it was noted whether any pear cores or such leftovers were found in the barn. seems she would have had to toss them somewhere.

in reference to Morse:

Unless, of course, he was somehow involved...?

i'm so new at this that i lean in every direction every other minute. but i have found it curious that only he and Lizzie didn't get sick. i don't really believe she ever was because i think they did a good job of pointing out how unlikely it would have been for her to be hanging around in the loft so soon afterward.

dang, this case is addictive! gee.. i was just innocently reading a bio of Eliz Montgomery and suddenly found myself blinking at dawn reading just one more line of testimony. ha!

[edited to remove questions i found the answer to and are probably common knowledge]

[DJ]

Come to think of it--
Lizzie could have easily found out about Mr. Borden's plans for being out the morning of that Fatal Fourth. From Abby. If Mr. Borden had given Abby any indication of how long he planned to be out and about that a.m., Lizzie could have learned of his plans from Abby, before she died. A simple, thirty-second exchange would have sufficed.
Then:
Lizzie could have quizzed her Father about John Morse's plans, during the window of opportunity she had to converse with him.

[Ad]

Welcome to the forum Joseph,

I hate to be the one that breaks this to you, but….I’ve been reading and digesting this double murder for many years now and I *still* “lean in every direction every other minute”. I’m afraid that it may not get any clearer for you either. But I’m positive that it will always be intriguing!!

Just when I think that I have solid belief in who did it or how it might have been done, something else comes into play; a comment from a forum member or quote from the testimony and boom……I’m off in another direction.

I believe that the thrill in this case is in the chase; you have found a great place to do that. The people here will help fill in the blanks and I look forward to anything that you might add.

What we do know for certain is that 116 years ago today, two people were savagely murdered in their own home in broad daylight. The rest is a puzzle that we have been trying to put together ever since……welcome!

[joseph]

Ad, thank you for the nice welcome. Most definitely the chase is time well spent. Occasionally I suffer this delusion that somebody will stumble across just one more clue that will solve the whole thing. But it's a happy delusion!

[Debbie]

Welcome to the forum Joseph. I've been a member for over four years, but I have just come back after being away for a long time. I'm not new to Lizzie's case, but feel new here.
You have found the right place to learn about Lizzie, the crime, the trial and anything else associated with her. The wonderful people here on the forum know this case inside and out and are most willing to share their knowledge.
You said something about Uncle John's timing coming back for dinner and that might pose a problem for the killer. I'm still not convinced old uncle John was completely innocent. Me thinks John either has an incredible memory or was setting up a very good alibi.
I have to agree with the others about Mr. Borden. I would see him as pretty much a creature of habit. His routine probably didn't vary that much, at least time wise from day to day unless he had maybe a special meeting or something to attend.

[Kat]

Hello you guys! I am late weighing in here.
Please excuse. I did print out your commentary and have some quick notes:
I was thinking that since Andrew had been ill, and passed up going with Morse to Swansea on Wednesday, and missed a business meeting downtown- Lizzie said he wasn't sure if he would go down to the post office Thursday. But he was given by Lizzie a letter to Emma to be mailed [Inq. 57/14)- and I thought that might ensure that he go out.
Then I was thinking that maybe she expected him back sooner. Maybe he stayed away longer than she thought. Getting him out of the house long enough to kill or have Abbie killed, then expecting him back sooner, so when he was killed the two victims would be closer together in timing. That way, Morse due back for dinner would not matter because both Bordens would be dead by around 10 or 10:30.

[Shelley]

Yes, that is an excellent point. Lizzie could not have known Andrew would bump into Mr. Clegg, and as a result Andrew would stop by the store to check on the window and gab with the workmen. adding so much additional time to his return.

Andrew's decision to go to all three banks may also have been last -minute too. Giving Andrew the letter to mail insured he would have been out of the house while Abby was killed. If he had returned home, say at 9:45, it sure would have made the two killings look very close together. She could have killed Andrew, put on that bengaline dress and trotted off to Sargent's to the sale and later say the killer came in while she was out and murdered them both. Of course the only catch was that Andrew had to lie down and be caught unawares. Or maybe she was counting on coming up from behind for the assault. Bridget was the only wild card factor- how long could she have counted on Bridget being outside? Lizzie could see her from many windows on the south side and could know that Bridget was a talker. That conversation with the Kelly's maid could insure an extra 15 minutes or maybe even more outside.

[Harry]

Good points and possibilities, Kat and Shelley.

I wish we had the testimony of Mary Doolan, the Kelly maid, to say how long she thought she and Bridget talked. And did she hear or see anything suspicious that morning. She was issued a summons to be a witness at the trial but she was never called. A missed opportunity.

[joseph]

Thank you all again for the nice welcomes!

I had some of the same thoughts about Lizzie perhaps planning that the murders would be much closer together in time. Do the deeds, hurry to the sale and let Bridget find them. Perhaps Andrew actually told Lizzie his plans for a short excursion and she kept the conversation out of her testimony?

Sometimes I wonder if Lizzie wasn't a genius in the game of making it all look haphazard and her alibi being flimsy. Playing the naive spinster who isn't bright enough to come up with anything other than barns and pears - all the while grinning to herself at how purposely naive it makes her look.

The prosecution by nature would argue an elaborate plot and the jury would look at her simple alibi and conclude she wasn't capable of the sophistication to match the prosecution's theories.

In that vein, why did she call out to Bridget so soon after Andrew's killing? Would the average person understand they needed to account for the time between murders based on blood evidence?

[DJ]

These are such excellent points, about how Lizzie would have done well to time the murders closer together, and not have all that "gap time" between them, for which it was so difficult for her to account.
*************************************************************
And-- this discussion ties in with something I've been thinking. But, if you're in the camp that John Morse is as innocent as a spring lamb, please don't read on!
************************************************************* I believe that Morse knew Lizzie was planning to strike that a.m. Could it be possible that he loitered at the P.O. (or nearby, say across the street), watching for Andrew that a.m.?
After all, the Emerys were NOT expecting him, he had no set time to be there.
Also, the P.O. and the Bordens' were not that far apart. The lion's share of Morse's journey would have been along Pleasant Street, which he accesses by Third Street (according to Morse) from the P.O. Also, he gets off the horse car at Pleasant and Second upon his return, and it's a short walk to No. 92 from there.
I believe when Morse espied Mr. Borden, he (Morse) decided to continue on to the Emerys'. If he had not seen Mr. Borden by, say 10 o'clock, I believe Morse would have made a pass by the Borden house.
*********************************************************
Similarly, I think that's why Morse didn't tell the Emerys he was headed back to the Bordens'. I believe he was making a pass then. When he saw the crowd out front, staring at the house, he knew what had happened.
************************************************************
Anyway, tying in to the present discussion, I think it's entirely possible Morse thought Lizzie could get to both Andrew and Abby while Bridget was out doing the windows. It would have made sense for Lizzie to have done that-- she would only have had to clean up thoroughly once, and then she could have been out on her merry way, leaving Bridget with a most gruesome surprise.
************************************************************
Kat, could it be Lizzie gave him the letter to ENSURE that he (Mr. Borden) would have a reason to go to the P.O., so Morse would know to wait there, looking for Mr. Borden, to determine whether he actually made it out alive that a.m.?
Wasn't this the letter to Emma, that was returned to the Fall River P.O.? I believe that Lizzie was planning to "do the deed," had failed with the prussic acid. There would have been no reason for her to have written Emma, then, except to provide a letter that maybe could/maybe could not have gotten Mr. Borden to the P.O. the morning of the Fourth.

[kssunflower]

That's another interesting point, DJ, about the letter. Food for thought anyway. And I know the windows were probably done on a regular basis, but how do we know that Lizzie didn't make a suggestion to Abby sometime shortly before the murders that they really needed to be cleaned to get Bridget out of the house for awhile?

[Allen]

In my opinion, I don't think there could be any way for Lizzie to know exactly what time Andrew would be back for certain. He collected rents, attended to the properties, the post office, the banks, and whatever business dealings he had going at any given time. Such as the one he had with Morse, who showed up unnannounced. There may have been other spur of the moment dealings. His stopping by to check on his store is another example. Unless he had a rigid schedule and consulted her about his business dealings, I dont see how she could be sure he would be back at any given time other than before the noon meal. This is why I think Lizzie tried to get Bridget out of the house. She couldn't be sure that washing the windows would afford her the opportunity she needed.

[joseph]

DJ:

Similarly, I think that's why Morse didn't tell the Emerys he was headed back to the Bordens'. I believe he was making a pass then. When he saw the crowd out front, staring at the house, he knew what had happened.

I find it interesting that Morse testified that there wasn't much of a crowd, if any, when he got there. "I did not see anything to attract my attention at all" 105 (12)

He didn't learn anything had happened till he went "into the door" 104 (11)

Maybe he was loitering around the pear tree to catch a glimpse of the screen door to see if there was any commotion? Or (and this too is a stretch) that he wanted to downplay that he waited for a crowd?

No crowd according to Morse is apparently contradicted by Dr. Bowen:

Knowlton to Dr. Seabury W. Bowen

120 (27)

Q. You do not remember of seeing Morse when you got back the second time?
A. No Sir.
Q. Nor when you got down from up stairs?
A. No Sir, not directly. I did not see him for some little time, I don't know when.
Q. Had the crowd begun to collect a great deal when he came?
A. Yes, a good many were there, I cant say who, people that I knew; I knew almost everybody that came in.

Of course Dr. Bowen was a pretty busy fellow and may have missed Morse's first coming. But it is interesting that Knowlton appears to be cross-checking Morse's account.

kssunflower:

That's another interesting point, DJ, about the letter. Food for thought anyway. And I know the windows were probably done on a regular basis, but how do we know that Lizzie didn't make a suggestion to Abby sometime shortly before the murders that they really needed to be cleaned to get Bridget out of the house for awhile?

Some fodder for your line of thinking:

Inquest August 9-11, 1892. Knowlton to Adelaide B. Churchill, next door neighbor:

126 (33)

Q. Did you see any other member of the household?
A. No Sir. I saw the girl later washing the windows.
Q. How much later was it she was out washing windows?
A. It might have been ten o'clock. I cant tell.
Q. Washing windows on the outside?
A. Yes Sir.

127 (34)

Q. How long should you say she was out there, that you saw her washing windows?
A.. I cant tell. I stepped into my bedroom for something, I saw her throwing water up on to the parlor window.
Q. She was washing the parlor window then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you remember how long before that time she had been out washing the windows, whether that same week, or the week before?
A. I dont think she washed windows but once a week, and Thursday was generally the day.
Q. It was the habit to wash the windows once a week?
A. She generally did.

As you suggest, maybe Lizzie reminded Abby to make sure Bridget did the windows on Thursday even though she didn't feel well. Normally it seems, according to Bridget, Lizzie was friendly towards her. She really wanted her out there.

[kssunflower]

Joseph, I didn't know that the windows were normally done on Thursdays anyway. Thanks for the info. As to Lizzie being usually 'cordial' towards Bridget...I have to wonder. I just think much of what she said in court about relationships in the house and with Lizzie weren't entirely truthful.

[joseph]

kssunflower,

I believe you are very right. I went back to Bridget's testimony at the trial (page 44). First she says she wasn't offended by being called 'Maggie'. That's kind of hard to believe since it sounds like a derogatory for an Irish person. Then she says they all treated her well.

Where I got the idea that she said specifically that Lizzie was kind to her I can't figure out. Perhaps I took this testimony at face value on first reading and supposed that to include Lizzie's treatment towards her.

But Bridget then goes on to downplay the tension in the house big time. Which casts doubt on her statement that she was treated well. I sure wouldn't like to be called 'Adolph' just because of my German heritage!

=================

In regards to Lizzie's knowledge of Andrew Borden's schedule that day, I found this:

Inquest 59 (16)

Q. What was the next thing that happened after you got down?
A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron.

Gee.. you could go ten different directions with that statement!

As DJ pointed out, the P.O. was not that far from the Borden house. Could Andrew's statement within earshot or to Lizzie be an indication whether he had not decided whether he would go out at all?

[Kat]

Yes that is the piece of testimony I posted- thank you for adding the context - and I had usually thought that Andrew was not going to go out at all until Lizzie gave him that letter to mail. That's why I put the italics on *the post office on Thursday*- because I was realizing that was my speculation all this time, but was not in what Lizzie actually said. I learned something there.

There is something strange that has always bothered me and I don't recall we have ever discussed it in order to really figure it out- and that is *Why did Lizzie claim she did not think Andrew did not even leave the house until around 10 a.m.*? (Inq. 68/25)

Another question I've had, which fits here about Morse- is why didn't he leave when Andrew left? They were going the same direction. They also were both going to the post office. But when Andrew went to the post office, I don't think we know.
The only reason I can think of was that Lizzie seemed to make a point of not coming downstairs that morning until Morse had left- so she did not give Andrew the letter until then. Maybe that shows she did use the letter to get Andrew out the door- else he might have remained home because he did not leave when Morse did, and she knew he had not left.
~ ~ ~
BTW: It might take the same amount of time to enter different areas of a bank as if were two, but didn't Andrew visit 2 banks, but 2 banks were within one building? Geographically, 2 banks visited, but 2 places of business in one building plus one other extra bank location= 3 banks? I meant to ask this earlier.

[joseph]

There is something strange that has always bothered me and I don't recall we have ever discussed it in order to really figure it out- and that is *Why did Lizzie claim she did not think Andrew did not even leave the house until around 10 a.m.*? (Inq. 68/25)

Perhaps she felt she needed to cut the time down to make the idea of a killer hiding in the house between murders more plausible?

And if so, I wonder if she did so as an afterthought? I still don't know if it would be common knowledge that time of death could be so accurately estimated via the rate of blood coagulation. If she didn't foresee that possibility, then perhaps she felt she needed to cut the time down at the inquest in spite of such evidence.

====

Great point about the letter. If she knew both were heading to the P.O. and she came down when Morse was still there, Morse might have offered to deliver the letter for her and spoil her plans.

As to Morse not waiting for Andrew. Perhaps he was itching to get out of there so he could meet his time line. His visit to his relatives was pretty short as it was. If it was too short it would look suspicious to go to so much effort to be away at just the right times.

From his questioning to various witnesses it appears to me that Knowlton had suspicions about Morse's time line as it was.

[joseph]

On the famous 'other hand'..

Why would Lizzie want her father to go out? Wouldn't it have been much better to have them both in the house alone, get them done in record time and head for the sale?

[DJ]

I've mentioned before that I believe Morse was the one who pushed for the window-washing that morning, by saying something about the windows to the fastidious Mrs. Borden.
Why?
Because, at both inquest and trial, he holds to his story that Mrs. Borden gave the cleaning order to Bridget during breakfast.
Bridget, however, says that the order didn't come until later, after she had finished washing the breakfast dishes.
Now, even Mr. Knowlton, in questioning Morse at the inquest, seemed incredulous that the order would have come during breakfast, when Bridget was summoned by a bell (according to Morse), chiefly for more coffee.
************************************************************
I believe Morse mentioned the windows at breakfast, and that is why he had it mind that that is when the order was given for the chore.
*************************************************************
If Morse didn't bring up the windows at breakfast, I believe he concocted a falsehood in order to protect Lizzie, to exonerate her from any involvement in sending Bridget out of doors, that that was an order given by Mrs. Borden before Lizzie even came downstairs.
*************************************************************
As for the letter, Joseph, it may have been Lizzie's agreed-upon sign to Morse (Wait at the P.O. till you see Father, or don't) that she didn't have the opportunity to "get to" Andrew, early on. That he (Morse), upon seeing Mr. Borden, should continue on to the Emerys' in order to establish an alibi for the entire morning.
Lizzie may have thought her ailing Father would stay in that a.m., and that she would have the chance to commit the murders within a tighter time frame. When she learned her Father was planning to go out, she gave him the letter to make sure he went by the P.O. Yes, that may have been Mr. Borden's habit, but she had to make absolutely certain that he did, in order for Morse to receive the signal.
***********************************************************
Kat, I agree with the member who said Lizzie probably provided that late departure time for Andrew to make it appear that he was still in the house when Abby's murder took place. If her Father was oblivious, why shouldn't she be? That seems to be her reasoning. Also, there's no one in the household to contradict her. I don't think she dared fudge the time any further, however, given that there would be witnesses to Andrew's activities on the outside.

[Allen]

If Morse didn't bring up the windows at breakfast, I believe he concocted a falsehood in order to protect Lizzie, to exonerate her from any involvement in sending Bridget out of doors, that that was an order given by Mrs. Borden before Lizzie even came downstairs.

I'm not quite sure what is meant by this. Do you mean that you believe Lizzie had something to do with the order being given? Or that Morse and Lizzie both were in on it?

[Kat]

Because Lizzie couldn't control when Andrew returned after all, she fudged the time he left? Well, that makes sense but doesn't quite make sense. It's a good start at why she said that...
We could add here that Morse made a mistake in his answer as to when he returned as well... So maybe he was fudging too? Maybe the combined answers of Morse and Lizzie in context is important to think over?

Trial
Morse
Q. Did you go directly out onto Second Street?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, caring nothing about the intermediate time, can you tell us about what hour you arrived on your return?
A. I think about twenty minutes to eleven.

Q. You don't mean eleven, do you?
A. Twelve.

Q. About twenty minutes of twelve?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And how did you approach the house, by what street?
A. Second Street.

Q. And to which door did you come?
A. I went into the rear door, back door.

Q. Now, as you passed into the yard by that Second Street entrance,---and that is the only entrance on that street, is it?
A. Yes, sir

Q. Did you notice anybody about there, particularly?
A. Not to

Page 151 / i172

draw my attention at all.

--If Morse did come back at 20 minutes to 11, that is close to 10:30 which Andrew might have been expected to return if he only left at 10 to go to the post office for Lizzie. Of course it didn't happen that way, but maybe there is a relationship...to a previous story they had planned. Admittedly, Morse got the time *right* upon his testimony at the prior inquest and preliminary hearing. But also it might explain why Morse stuck to his story he saw no one around. (It's far-fetched, but at least we are dealing with it...)

--It was asked why send Andrew out al all- just kill both? I can only answer simply, that it would be easier to kill them one at a time. If both together, I think odds are the killer must kill the male first because he has more strength. If Abbie's death-timing had anything to do with wills and rights of survivorship, then separating the 2 for the kill, and showing a minimum amount of time between, yet establishing the stepmother predeceased Andrew-- everything has been accomplished.

[Kat]

As for Andrew's business downtown that Thursday:

Kat, I agree with the member who said Lizzie probably provided that late departure time for Andrew to make it appear that he was still in the house when Abby's murder took place. If her Father was oblivious, why shouldn't she be? That seems to be her reasoning. Also, there's no one in the household to contradict her. I don't think she dared fudge the time any further, however, given that there would be witnesses to Andrew's activities on the outside.

--partial, DJ

Well, Bridget (as *household*) may not know for sure, that's so- because she did not see Andrew leave. Nor did Mrs. Churchill see him leave tho she saw him outside that morning.
But his cronies downtown did see him as well as others, so Lizzie stating he didn't leave until 10 or so is the part that is not going to make sense- in that she said it. Lizzie can't control what the people in the business district saw.

It was said Andrew was shaved that morning, too, and people have added it to time-lines, but there is no testimony to that happening. But since he had been ill, and not gone out on the street Wednesday, maybe he did feel he needed a shave- like a 'pick-me-up.'

[DJ]

Kat, it does seem to me as if Morse and Lizzie have conspired, and this slips out in testimony, particularly Morse's, re the window-washing order coming at breakfast.
Also, at the inquest, Morse says he went to the P.O. that a.m. and got a car. Now, either this is a very bad mistake on the stenographer's part, or also a slip-up, as to what he actually did. Plus, later in this testimony, he says he "went up" Third, to Pleasant, to Weybosset. Well, what does that mean? He doesn't say on foot. Is it part way on foot, part way in a car?
I know that it's accepted he made the trip there on foot, but was it on foot all the way? At trial, he said he made the trip on foot, but can anyone corroborate that? If he was waiting around the P.O. for a half-hour or so, to determine whether Mr. Borden made it there, then the "on-foot" story helps account for the excess of time between the time he left the P.O. and the time he arrived at the Emerys.
Plus, some of his testimony reads like a sketch for Jon Lovitz's SNL "Liar" character. First, he's at the Emerys' at 10, then it "must have been earlier."
Sorry, anyone who can memorize numbers on a streetcar can give a more accurate indication of when they arrived somewhere, especially as most homes of the period had clocks prominently displayed in receiving rooms, clocks that often chimed conspicuously.
One recalls Bridget's exclamation, "There was enough of 'em," regarding the number of clocks in the Borden household.

[Allen]

I can't find the statement where John Morse said he arrived at the Emery's at 10:00am. I did find that at the Inquest he is asked if that is the time he arrived, and he said it must have been earlier.


The Witness statements page 3 from the notes of Harrington and Dougherty.

Got up about six o’clock this morning, got breakfast about seven o’clock, stopped in the house till about 8.40 A. M. Leaving Mr. Borden at the door, went to the Post Office, wrote a letter from there, went as far as Third street on Bedford, from Third to Pleasant street, through Pleasant street to No. 4 Weybosset. Street, arriving there about 9.30 A. M. Saw relatives from the West. Remained at the house from 9.30 to 11:20 A. M., or thereabouts.

The Witness Statements page 29 from the notes of William H. Medley.

John V. Morse stated to me that be left the Borden homestead on Second street at about 8.50 A. M. and went to see a nephew and niece whom he had never seen before, so he said, who were stopping at Mr. Emery’s at No. 4 Weybosset street. Mr. Morse said he went there, and remained until 11.30 arriving there at about 9.30.

Inquest testimony of John V. Morse page 101:


Q. Won't you detail your movements after you left the house?
A. That day.

Q. Yes.
A. I left there at 15-20 minutes of nine, came down to the Post Office, wrote a postal, and went up Bedford street to Third street, and went from there to Pleasant street, and up to Weybosset street, No. 4, Dan Emery's.

Q. Go on. How long did you stay there?
A. I think I stayed there until about twenty minutes past eleven, maybe a little later.

Q. You got there about ten?
A. It must have been earlier.

Mrs. Emery's statement from The Witness Statements page 29:

To prove the truth or falsity of the above statement, I went to the home of Mr. Emery at No. 4 Weybosst street. Mrs. Emery said Mr. Morse did come there at about 9.40, and left there at 11.20, or thereabouts; that he did meet his nephew and niece.

[Kat]

Thank you very much for the testimony and transcriptions Missy! That is helpful!
~ ~ ~
As for the *car*- Morse got a *card* I believe, and it's a misprint. We sort of had to kick that one around a bit, but most believe that it's a misprint, because he sent a note or letter or something there to Wm. Vinnicum I believe.

Rebello:
Page 122

I [John V. Morse] had come to Fall River, for one reason, to buy a pair of oxen for butcher Davis, with whom I lived. He had wanted them, and I had agreed to take them on a certain day, but had not done so. Andrew told me when I was ready to go after them to write him at the farm, which would save him bothering in the matter.

When I left the house I started for the post office. I walked down Second Street, and, stopping in, I got a postal card and wrote to William Vinnicum of South Swansea." Fall River Herald, Friday, August 5, 1892: 4.

[Kat]

So Morse says it's a mile and a quarter to the Emery's house. He goes to the P.O. and gets a card and writes it there, it sounds like?
He walks to Weybosset then and it takes him from say 8:45 A.M. to 9:20? I thought it was 9:20. Is there another source other than the Witness Statements that gives that time? (Maybe that was in the newspaper...)

Sounds like something Shelley would have timed.

[morgan]

Hi All, Just weighing in about Morse. In my opinion, if Morse wanted them dead, he wouldn't have trusted Lizzie to get the job done. It just seems that the motive was rage, it even fits the description of how they were hacked up. Motive of course: money and property, but rage the necessary ingredient to fit the evidence. And what did Morse ever gain from the deaths?

[DJ]

It's just an opinion--
I think if it had just been rage, the execution of the murders would have been a lot more careless. If we accept the testimony (I do) that Lizzie attempted to secure prussic acid from Mr. Bence, then there is a decided element of premeditation involved, if Lizzie was the murderer.
Andrew was intestate, and there was a great deal at stake, for Lizzie and Emma, especially since John Morse knew, and likely told them, that Andrew was planning to make some charitable bequests. I believe the daughters wanted every penny, every square inch of property. They certainly didn't want Abby to have much of anything.
That was made evident over the property transfer to Abby's half sister. It was obviously such a bone of contention between the sisters and their stepmother and father that Lizzie ceased to call Abby her "Mother."
Both Emma and Lizzie testify at the inquest that they knew about Mr. Borden's previous will, and its destruction, from John Morse.
There's an established line of communication between the Borden daughters and their uncle regarding Mr. Borden's estate planning.
************************************************************
It's just an opinion--
That the murders were staged in such a violent fashion to throw suspicion off Lizzie-- how could a lady do such a thing?
I don't think Abby went quickly-- I think she saw Lizzie with the hatchet, and Lizzie's adrenaline started pumping. I don't think Abby went down on the first blow, and Lizzie went into a frenzy, to make sure Abby was dead. Hence, the "overkill."
However Lizzie felt about her Father, his murder had to be "copycatted" to make it seem as if the same person had committed both. There weren't as many blows, and she had the advantage there, swinging straight down.
I picture her standing as much behind the door to the sitting room as possible, to avoid as much as blood as possible. Ducking back when she could. I wonder whether she brought the hatchet down on each chime of the mantel clock, as it struck eleven.
************************************************************
So, how did Morse get involved?
Just an opinion--
By blabbing too much about the plans for Andrew's new will.
What did he stand to gain?
He's a moderate success.
But-- nothing on the order of Mr. Borden.
Whatever he gained, he was savvy enough not to leave a paper trail.
Before Morse headed West, he lived with the Bordens, for about a year.
I've read that he and Mr. Borden were planning to go into business together, but then Morse made the decision to move on, landing in Illinois, and then Iowa.
What precipitated this departure? A disagreement? A scandal? A perceived slight on Morse's part?
************************************************************
At any rate, Morse did all right, while Mr. A. J. Borden made it really, really big.
Why would Morse cover for Lizzie? Well, the nature of their relationship is a conundrum. They SAY they've never corresponded. They SAY they haven't spoken to one another during the visits of that summer.
Meanwhile, Morse and Emma admit to being close.
Why would Morse aid and abet Lizzie?
Well, she's his blood. So is Emma. Is he just going to hand them over to the police? This is one of the reasons I also believe Emma was involved. I think she was the one who convinced him to help Lizzie.
After all Emma and Morse DID correspond. They DID converse that summer, at least once, that is on the record.
*************************************************************
Finally, I think these murders boil down to the fact that Mr. Borden did not have a will-- and that his daughters knew it, and knew of some of his plans for a new one, thanks to Morse.
Lizzie (and Emma) knew that they could have everything, if--
And, they knew that time was drawing nigh on that "if."
*************************************************************
I just glanced back at Morse's statement in Kat's post.
(1) If he had come to Fall River for one reason only, to buy the oxen, he should have headed back to the Davises' first thing that morning, mission accomplished in true GWB fashion. He could have come back to visit his relatives. After all, one is gone and the other is sick, he comes to find out. He has not prearranged to see them, and they are obviously not expecting him.
(2) So, why does he linger at the Emerys' all morning? Why not say he would come back before his niece and nephew leave (perhaps on a Sunday, when he has the day off), take his streetcar back to Second Street, make his apologies at the Bordens', then head back to the Davises', having been freed up by 10:30 a.m., maybe earlier.
(3) Morse is "open" in his window of opportunity regarding the dates to visit the Bordens, who (Andrew and Abby, at least) are not expecting him on the afternoon of the 3rd. They are looking for him sometime., but not then, particularly. In other words, he doesn't have to be there at that time. That is the time he chooses, for whatever reasons. His statement makes it sound as if he MUST be there at that time, which is misleading.

[Kat]

I have a question about this part:

Before Morse headed West, he lived with the Bordens, for about a year.
I've read that he and Mr. Borden were planning to go into business together, but then Morse made the decision to move on, landing in Illinois, and then Iowa.
What precipitated this departure? A disagreement? A scandal? A perceived slight on Morse's part?

--DJ

This is not quite in chronological order, and please can you say where you have info that Morse and Borden were "to go into business together?"

As for where the Morses were, when:
In The Hatchet of June/July 2004, our Joe wrote about the Morse family. Anthony Morse and his second wife, Hannah and the remaining kids moved west to Illinois sometime between 1850 and 1855, it is believed.

JVM's brother William moved west to Minnesota around 1854, and JVM lived with him there first, before William's marriage in 1856. "After a year in Minnesota, John moved on to Illinois, about 1855, staying there for fourteen years. Then he meandered to Hastings, Iowa c. 1869, where he apparently remained until 1890..."--Joe Carlson, "The Elusive John Morse."

Morse lived with the Bordens a year in 1875, but I'm not sure if it was the year of 1875-76, or 1874-75. 1874 was the year Andrew had city water pipes run to his house and barn.
At the time, the address was 66 Second Street, btw.

[DJ]

Kat,
Sorry about the mix-up. I'm looking for the source. I believe it was on an old thread, somewhere herein.
Still, to re-word the point-- Morse did live with the Bordens for a period of some months, if not an entire year-- and then he returned West.
I know he was given to wander, and had concerns elsewhere, but my speculation centers on whether or not there was a "defining incident" that sent him back.

[Cherish]

Well I, for one, don't believe that Lizzie did it! Apparently it was known that if anyone wanted to speak business with Andrew, he was always home around 11 am and business would be conducted at that time. There was a disgruntled man near the home, and he may of been an employee who was caught doing something wrong and was about to lose his job. Who knows? But the theory that I believe could be true is that this man knocked on the door to speak with Andrew, and Abby let him in. She then left the room to go upstairs to tend to cleaning while Andrew discussed business. This employee freaked out, or was extremely raged because Andrew would not let him keep his job, and he grapped a hatchet and killed him. Abby would be a witness because she saw him when she let him in, so he had to finish her off too. Lizzie was out in the barn, and Bridget was cleaning windows. This guy then took off....and you know the rest.

[JoAnne]

Cherish, I'm afraid your theory is contrary to facts in evidence. It was determined by the medical examiner that Abby died first, probably around 9:30 or so. Andrew came home around 10:30 and was let in by Bridget and Lizzie was in the house at that time. Also all the locks were still bolted when Bridget let Mr. Borden in. So no one could have left by the front door and locked all the locks on his way out. Sorry. I know some people believe Lizzie did not commit the murders. I am not one of those. But , in my opinion, it could not have occured as you described.

[snokkums]

welcome Joseph. I think maybe why questions weren't asked was maybe they didn't ask them in the right way or the right questions.

As for Andrews routine, I think everyone knew Andrews routine. So anyone could have "done it" if you believe someone was watching his rountine.

[Cherish]

Cherish, I'm afraid your theory is contrary to facts in evidence. It was determined by the medical examiner that Abby died first, probably around 9:30 or so. Andrew came home around 10:30 and was let in by Bridget and Lizzie was in the house at that time. Also all the locks were still bolted when Bridget let Mr. Borden in. So no one could have left by the front door and locked all the locks on his way out. Sorry. I know some people believe Lizzie did not commit the murders. I am not one of those. But , in my opinion, it could not have occured as you described.

JoAnne, the documentations that I have found have said that it is a theory that Abby died first, but not conclusive. Her time of death was based on touch, and the digestion of food. Her food was not fully or mostly digested. Furthermore, it's also a fact that Abby had food in her stomach that was not consistant with their breakfast meal. This is an indication that she had a snack, and would easily explain why her food was not as digested as Andrew's.

[kssunflower]

Cherish, I don't mean to argue, but I thought one of the determining factors in the time of deaths was that Abby's blood was dark and congealed and Andrew's was still oozing from his wounds.

[Kat]

Yes that is so- I always picture the blood when time of death is debated.
We do apparently have someone coming to the door at 9 a.m. according to Lizzie, but we lose that *fact* later on somehow. (Witness Statements, pg. 2)
Cherish, what have you read so far and are you continuing in your reading? Welcome!

[Debbie]

I might be remembering this wrong, but I thought I had read in David Kent's book Forty Whacks, where one of the doctors from Harvard said the time of Abby's death could have been as much as three hours before Andrew's.
I think that would put the death too early, but it would show she certainly died before Andrew.

[Allen]

Its just my opinion that most of the facts show Abby died before Andrew. In my opinion the fact that her food was less digested than Andrews stomach contents would indicate she died sooner and her digestion was interrupted sooner. Also the fact that has already been pointed out that Andrews blood was fresh, was still running, and Abby's was congealed. On a hot day such as the day of the murders the fact that Abby's body temperature was cooler than Andrews would lead me to believe she died a lot sooner also. Abby was a bit bigger in body size than Andrew, and if anything her body probably would've cooled more slowly if they had died closer together. Not more quickly.

[Kat]

Was she cooler? I might be recalling that her *fat* or her *flesh* (or whatever term they used) seemed to retard her cooling? Can you find that again please? Thanks!

[Allen]

Trial testimony of Dr. Albert C. Dedrick page 832-833:

Q. Did you make any examination or observation of the blood in the two cases?
A. It was in a further advanced stage of

page 833

coagulation on Mrs. Borden than on Mr. Borden.

Q. Will you give us a description of its condition?
A. On Mrs. Borden it was more of a ropy consistency and had coagulated so it would not run. On Mr. Borden it was more of an cozy character.

Q. Did you notice anything in reference to the bodies, with reference to the temperature?
A. I noticed Mrs. Borden's body felt colder and was stiffer.

Q. Did you form any opinion at the time from observation of the bodies upon the question of priority of death?
A. Yes, sir, I formed an opinion that Mrs. Borden died first.

[Kat]

Thanks Missy!
I need to look at the other doctors to see if they agreed.
I appreciate the citation- that's something to work with.

[Allen]

Trial testimony of Dr. William Dolan page 860-861:

Q. Now, going back for a moment to the body of Mr. Borden: Did you have with you a clinical thermometer?
A. I had, yes, sir.

Q. Did you use it?
A. No, sir.

Q. Did you make any examination of the bodily heat of Mr. Borden?
A. I did that when I first went in. I took hold of the hand.

Q. What did you find it to be?
A. I found it was warm; I could not say just the temperature, but a warm body.

page 860

Q. When you say warm, do you mean the warmth of life?
A. Not quite that, no , sir.

Q. When you use the word warm are you referring to the warmth as distinguished between the warmth of life and the coldness of death?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are using it in the medical sense, the word warmth?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ascertain that warmth from anything besides the hands at that time?
A. No, sir, I did not.

page 861 - 862:

Q. Now turning back again to the body of Mrs. Borden. Did you make any examination as to the bodily heat of that?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What, and what was the result?
A. I felt the body with my hand and it was much colder to the touch than that of Mr. Borden.

page 862

Q. What part of the body did you touch?
A. Touched her head and hand.

Q. You did not use the clinical thermometer in either case?
A.No, sir.

Q. Did you take any notice of the condition of the blood of Mrs. Borden?
A. I did.

Q. Describe as minutely as you please the condition of the blood on or about her body.
A. It was coagulated and of dark color; the blood on the head was matted and practically dry. There was no oozing from it as in Mr. Borden's.

Q. How was it as to whether coagulated?
A. It was coagulated.

Trial testimony of Dr. David W. Cheever page 1088:

Q. Are there any facts that you have listened to in your opinion important or significant in determining the question of priority of death?
A. Of Mr. and Mrs. Borden?

Q. Yes.
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And of the time of such priority?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Will you state what what witness or witnesses that you have listened to that seemed to you to be significant of the conclusion to draw from them, and how certain you are of your conclusions?
A. The fact that Mrs. Borden's body was sensibly cooler than Mr. Borden's, the fact that the blood which was poured out on the surroundings was coagulated to a certain degree about the person of Mrs. Borden and was entirely liquid and dripping from the wounds of Mr. Borden and the fact that in Mrs. Borden's case the digestion was still going on and that in Mr. Borden it was apparently almost completed---all these things taken together convinced me that Mrs. Borden died first, and probably by considerable interval.

Q. What interval, Doctor, as to the minimum, in your opinion?
A. The minimum I should place at about an hour; the maximum I should not be willing to place at more than two hours.

[Nadzieja]

I haven't read anything yet concerning the relationship between John Morse & Mrs. Borden. The first Mrs. Borden being John's sister, maybe in some way he wanted to be sure of his nieces would get the lions share of the inheritence. I've seen people I thought I knew well act really wierd and very selfish when it comes to inheriting anything not just money. I read (and can't remember exactly where) John & Emma always stayed in touch through letters.

[Shelley]

Seems as if Emma was the one who wrote to John from time to time, and referring to him as "Dear Uncle" and not in a salutation sense either. John does not indicate though that it was frequent correspondence. Naturally Emma would have remembered John far more than Lizzie due to her age, and when her mother died, John was a remaining link to the Morse family- Emma was also maybe more sentimental about her mother's family and may have been the more dutiful of the two girls in keeping up family ties by correspondence. Yes, families can really show their true colors when it comes to inheritance.

[Allen]

Emma does seem to have more of an attachment to John Morse than Lizzie does. A good example of this in my opinion is the trip Morse made to Fall River when he and Emma went riding and to the steamboat. He doesn't state a reason why Lizzie did not attend, but I get a feeling if she had the chance she probably would not have accompanied them.

[Kat]

Thanks again, Missy for getting more info.
However, I must admit I was surprised last night, in my further reading, that the first testimony you gave me from Dr. Dedrick, showed he did not arrive on the scene until 2 pm. Thursday. The context was not close enough in time, to the event.

Since I've had sporadic computer use due to this storm, I did sit with the trial binders in my lap last night, and with no further input I read the doctors.

Today, just now, I found what I was looking for, in Dr. Dolan's testimony. Since he was one of the first on the scene, I was glad it was he I was referring to. I will post that next, what I found.

But now, reading these other offerings of testimony from today (which I do appreciate your looking up and transcribing) I again find the context is not what I wanted- ie: Cheever is asked, and responds at trial:
Q. What was the first opportunity for observation of any feature in this case that you had?
A. About the 31st of last May.

I guess I don't understand why the context was not included. 2 pm for one doctor, May 31st for another.

I did finally do many word searches and found the body of Abbie was cooler in several instances that are in agreement: in opening statements, and Dr. Dolan specifically, and these are good context (as your new Dolan testimony shows, thanks).

I was not disputing that Abbie was not cooler than Andrew. My further question (earlier) was only trying to figure out the odd thing I thought I recalled about an opinion given in the case that the *fat* of Abbie, or her size, would possibly retard her cooling.
Here it is:

Trial
Dr. Dolan
Page 969

Q. What other factor comes into your opinion?
A. The difference in the warmth of the bodies.

Q. Well, as has been asked you, you didn't take the difference in the temperature of these bodies by any thermometer, but it was only your opinion by touch?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you don't feel very well satisfied of your opinion upon that, do you?
A. I do.

Q. You do?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you able to express a positive opinion about the time of priority based simply upon your knowledge of the bodies?
A. I think so; yes, sir.

Q. And you fix that, then, at an hour or an hour and a half?
A. I think that is a very safe limit, under those conditions.

Q. How long would it take a body at that season of the year, a normal body, to cool?
A. Well, normal bodies differ very much. I wouldn't want to answer that question.

Q. Well, what is the common period of time assigned for the cooling of the body?
A. Well, anywhere from ten to twenty-four hours.

Q. Take the body of Mrs. Borden, who was a woman 60 odd years of age, weighing about 200 pounds, how long at that time do you think it would take for her body to cool, to become cold?
A. I don't know. Of course the external temperature would have something to do with it, but I am not prepared to say how long it would take for her body that particular day. As I say, all normal bodies differ very much in length of time.

Q. Can you give me any opinion as to the length of time?

Page 970

A. I could not; no sir.

Q. Would there be any difference in the time between her body and Mr. Borden's, assuming both died at the same instant?
A. There would; yes, sir.

Q. What difference would there be?
A. The difference would be that hers would be warmer than Mr. Borden's.

Q. That is to say, hers would be warm longer than his?
A. Be warm longer than his and warmer than his.

--I think they are referring to her size as retarding her cooling. That is all I was looking for. Your earlier opinion that Abbie would have cooled more slowly seems correct. Thanks again.