Lizzie Mini #4: The Bridget Run Timing Test

[beanbolt]

Wilbur's was a clothing store. Alice was described as a "confidential bookkeeper".

Hello everybody. I was hoping to save my first post for something earth-shattering, but I just can't help myself. Does the sign on the side of the building say "Tremendous Slaughter of Fine Clothing"? Or am I seeing things? I'm going to feel silly if it actually says something else...

[doug65oh]

Am I seeing what I'm really seeing? It does look like the sign reads "Tremendous Slaughter of Fine Clothing."

[Richard]

On the other side, it says Slightly Damaged . sumthing, sumthing...and then the word SLAUGHTERED underneath in big letters.

Weird.

I guess it was the late 1800's version of "CLOTHING WORLD SLASHES PRICES!!!" Today we wouldn't blink at someone saying, "They slashed their prices!"

Welcome, Bean Bolt!

[beanbolt]

Thanks Richard. I've been poking around in the archive. There's a lot there to read, maybe too much is that's possible.

Good point about the slashing prices reference, I hadn't thought of it that way. I was trying to read "slaughter" as meaning "a large amount" for some reason. Your explanation actually makes sense so I'll go with that.

[Nadzieja]

Great job of the film. I really enjoyed it. I love these experiments. It gives you more of a sense of things where timing is concerned.

[Kat]

Thanks everyone for more testimony.
I found where Mrs. Churchill says Lizzie was clean:

Inquest
Churchill
132
Q. No indications, bloody cloths or anything?
A. No Sir, and she [Lizzie] looked clean, perfectly clean.

--Someone remind me why we are looking at how clean Lizzie was? Does this mean she couldn't have done it?

[Kat]

From page one on this topic:

Yes, Mrs. Churchill did come over, after a short time interval from her initial conversation through the window to Lizzie at the screen door - while Bridget was running to Alice's - but did not come into the house until after she had crossed the street, walked over to the livery stable, inquired of a man at the livery, spoke to Tommy Bowles, and presumably relayed some more information toCunningham before she recrossed the street and entered the kitchen.

--partial, Shelley

I'm sorry to be late chiming in here but I was out of electricity quite a long time this past night. This detail had bothered me but I wasn't sure why so I went to look it up. I did find that Mrs. Churchill did come inside right away, before she went to get help.
I'm leaving in the conversation Mrs. Churchill had with Lizzie because that would take up time as well, and this topic has to do with timing:

Inquest
Mrs. Churchill
128
. . . I opened one of the south windows, one had a screen in and the other did not, I says “what is the matter Lizzie?” She said “O, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, somebody has killed Father.” I went right through the house and went out the front door and went over. When I got there she sat on the second stair which is right at the right of the screen door as you come in, the back stairs.
Q. Crying?
A. No Sir. I put my hand on her arm, this way, and said “Lizzie, where is your father”? She says “in the sitting room”. I said “where was you when it happened?” She said “I went to the barn to get a piece of iron.” I said “where is your mother”? She says “I dont know, she had a note to go and see some one that was sick this morning, but I dont know but they have killed her too.” She said “father must have had an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk has been poisoned.” The she said “Dr. Bowen is not at home, but I must have a Doctor”. I says “shall I go and try to find someone to go and get a doctor”?

...
. . . Soon after I got back she says “I shall have to go to the Cemetary myself”. “O, No,” I says, “Lizzie, the undertaker will attend to all such things as that for you; they generally do.” Very soon Dr. Bowen came in, and I said to him “he is in the sitting room.”

. . . and Lizzie and Bridget and I, Bridget had come back, she had been for Alice Russell, a friend of Lizzie’s, and had got back, and Lizzie, Bridget and I went as far as the dining room. Lizzie sat down on the lounge, Bridget and I stood there. Dr. Bowen went into the sitting room. . .

Also:
Inquest
Mrs. Churchill
130

Q. Before Dr. Bowen came, you came? You came before he did?
A. Yes, we stood in that entry. I went again to find a doctor before he got there.
Q. You got back the second time before Dr. Bowen came?
A. Yes.
Q. While you were gone, you went to where Thomas Bowles was?
A. Yes, to L. L. Hall’s boarding stable on the opposite side of the street.
Q. It was after you got back the second time Dr. Bowen came?
A. Yes Sir, then Miss Russell soon came.
Q. While you were gone down to Bowles’, there was nobody there, so far as you know, but Lizzie and the servant?
A. I left her alone when I went, the servant had not got back from the other errand.
. . .

Q. How did you get through the screen door, did she unhook it?
A. I think I opened it myself. She sat on the stairs as I went in.
Q. It was not locked?
A. No Sir, the girl had run again, after she came from Dr. Bowens.

[Kat]

If you guys are going to the trouble of timing these things, why return and post that it could have been longer than 6 minutes, and likely as much as 12 minutes? That's a bit confusing- should we reach a consensus? Do we need more testimony to figure it out finally?
Also, if it took JoAnne 6 minutes to go all that way around the corner etc. after the invisible Alice, why give a guesstimate of Mrs. Churchill as away from Lizzie for 5 minutes, when she only crossed the street?

Maybe, again, we should reach a consensus on that?
BTW: JoAnne- you were spectacular in the role of Bridget, and I loved your accent!

[Harry]

Hello everybody. I was hoping to save my first post for something earth-shattering, but I just can't help myself. Does the sign on the side of the building say "Tremendous Slaughter of Fine Clothing"? Or am I seeing things? I'm going to feel silly if it actually says something else...

"Slaughter" it is indeed. And not just your everyday slaughter but a "Tremendous" one. Considering the Borden and Manchester tragedies not a very good choice of words.

Welcome, beanbolt

[Shelley]

Yes, the actual TIMING of our recreation was just as we said on the mini-doc- the six minutes 15 seconds. It can only be a "guesstimate" because we do not know every single variable. How fast did Bridget walk-run? How much actual dialogue was remembered when anybody gave testimony? How much time did Bridget waste going to the wrong house, going out again, getting directions, etc. etc. etc. Nobody can possibly know all of these minute details- they did not know them in 1892 and they sure do not know them today. And there is no way anybody can fact-check this down to the minute. All we can do, based on the testimony we have at hand is make a stab at an approximate time frame. That is why we tried for a MINIMUM time as a baseline. Okay- so it took 6 minutes and 15 seconds at the least. It may very well have been longer so I give a range using 6 minutes 15 seconds as the short point and maybe 10-12 minutes as the outside possibility.

There is also the very important variable of clocks and timepieces also. It seems like no two were the same that day. If we had had an Olympic timekeeper on August 4, 1892, the job of making these mini-docs would sure be a heck of a lot easier. As it is, we do the best we can to get a good idea. I have already quoted a great deal of the preliminary on the previous page about what Mrs. Churchill said about how soon it was when Bridget had come back so I won't reprint all that again. It was "very soon", which is a relative term. The only point that we were all striving to make was simply this: Lizzie was left alone for a space of time unobserved, and by herself in the house. We also plan to try and get a handle on Adelaide Churchill's movements as well, from the time she went to the market and came home all the way to the moment when she got back from across the street and came into the kitchen, which is what I meant by came into the house.

We can discuss all of this till the end of time or we can take a practical approach and try to reproduce the sequences of action as best we can from what we have to work with today. Many of the experiments we try to document can be done by anyone even if you are not living in Fall River. It is very helpful however when the buildings and geographical situations are the same to get a closer approximation.

The next time experiment will be John's trip to the Emerys. Once again, we do not know if he had his own postcard, had to buy one and a stamp, how many people were in line at the post office, how long his walking stride was, etc. etc. but we have a good estimate and a time frame. In 2008, that is all we can hope to get.

[SteveS.]

The wrong house Bridget went into was on the corner of Borden and 2nd streets and it was when she was leaving there that she asked a man on the street for directions to Alice's house. She then went directly to Alice's house on Borden St. between 3rd and 4th sts.(Bridgets trial testiomony)

Mrs. Churchill was in front of the Burt's house, next house north of her own when she saw Bridget running across the street back from Dr. Bowens and she went directly in her house, into her kitchen, placed her purchases down on a bench and saw Lizzie standing in the side doorway and came directly over to the Bordens after talking to Lizzie through her kitchen window. She did not make any stops. (Mrs. Churchill's trial testimony)

I think you did a very good and reasonable job Shelley and Richard at trying to ascertain roughly how long it would take Bridget to complete her task. My only question would be exactly how much of that 6 plus minutes was Lizzie alone before Mrs. Churchill came over? From testimony it sounds to me that it appears Lizzie never left the spot near the side doorway when she sent Bridget to get Alice Russell and when Mrs. Churchill came over. Lizzie was at the side door when she sent Bridget to Dr. Bowens...she was still there when Bridget returned....she was there when she sent Bridget to get Alice and she was there when Mrs. Churchill first saw her and she was there when Mrs. Churchill got there. If she did leave that spot near the side door it could not have been for more then a minute or 2 at the most I would think. I don't know how much she could accomplish in that 1 -2 minutes. Sounds to me that she had to be fully ready to be seen when she called Bridget downstairs. There really wasn't a 6 plus minute time for her to do something.

Does that make sense?

[Richard]

I always felt that if Lizzie were guilty, she would have taken care of things before raising the alarm. If her dress were bloody, and she was carrying around the hatchet when she raised the alarm and woke Bridget, she would have run the risk of Bridget noticing something. And she first sent Bridget across the street to Dr. Bowen. Let's say that Bowen was home: the doctor would have been back to the house within a minute or two (if he heard Andrew was dead, he would have gone to the Bordens immediately, probably running). So Lizzie couldn't have factored in her plan hiding things with Bridget out of the house. It would have made sense that she would have hidden things or changed her dress after killing her father and before she raised the alarm. She would have had all the time in the world.

And if she IS guilty, then she did a damned good job of it. Not a spot of blood on her dress, no blood trails leading away from the crime to her room, no hatchet...

So I'm convinced that Lizzie spent all that time between waking Bridget and Russell arriving at the house either with people, or within plain sight of other people and if she were alone at all, it was for a solitary minute here or there.

[Shelley]

Yes, we may never know just where Lizzie was the entire time but we know she spent a good amount of it near the side door which is just by the sink room. I think the timing of Mrs. Churchill's movements beginning with seeing Bridget running back and forth to walking back into her house, putting down her parcels, taking off her hat, etc. seeing Lizzie through the window, that conversation. etc. will be helpful. Ideally, NEXT time we will have a smooth script involving Lizzie, Bridget, Addie AND Alice and time the WHOLE thing with a camera at each end. Actually this mini started with the idea from the forum- DID Bridget see Andrew come home, passing the house. You see how fleeting the opportunity was when you see how swiftly Andrew passes in and out of Bridget's viewpoint of Second St. The rest of that action evolved from that focus spontaneously.

Yes, I also agree that probably the big telltale signs had been dealt with before the alarm was given, but that extra precious time was ideal for tweaking the details, checking on any little thing overlooked, or thinking the next thing through, what to say, etc.

[SteveS.]

I also believe that Lizzie uses that time of Bridget getting Alice and Mrs. Churchill comming over to go overthings, not physically, but in her mind. Get her story straight, so to speak. She answers that dreaded question of "where were you?" slightly differently for Bridget and then for Mrs. Churchill....I was in the yard and heard a groan. .....I was in the barn to get a piece of iron. These both could be the truth, but she started to place herself further away and out of sight of anything. coincidence? She also states almost immediately to Mrs. Churchill that she thought she heard her mother come in and that she might be killed too? Geeesh, this girl really wanted Abby found fast. Now in Lizzie's defense..............she very well could have been in the barn and was on her way through the yard, heard the side screen door as the murderer escaped(thought to herself that it was Abby comming home), the groan she heard could have been some exclamation made by the murderer.

[Kat]

think you did a very good and reasonable job Shelley and Richard at trying to ascertain roughly how long it would take Bridget to complete her task. My only question would be exactly how much of that 6 plus minutes was Lizzie alone before Mrs. Churchill came over? From testimony it sounds to me that it appears Lizzie never left the spot near the side doorway when she sent Bridget to get Alice Russell and when Mrs. Churchill came over. Lizzie was at the side door when she sent Bridget to Dr. Bowens...she was still there when Bridget returned....she was there when she sent Bridget to get Alice and she was there when Mrs. Churchill first saw her and she was there when Mrs. Churchill got there. If she did leave that spot near the side door it could not have been for more then a minute or 2 at the most I would think. I don't know how much she could accomplish in that 1 -2 minutes. Sounds to me that she had to be fully ready to be seen when she called Bridget downstairs. There really wasn't a 6 plus minute time for her to do something.

Does that make sense?

--partial, SteveS

Yes, good points!

Also, Mrs. Churchill did say "...I shouldn't think 5 minutes" in response as to how long she was gone across the street (T359).
On page 364 she responds "I said I didn't think more than 5 minutes" in response to Robinson misquoting her as saying 2 or 3 minutes as the time she was gone.

As we can see, there is a difference between "I shouldn't think 5 minutes" and "I said I didn't think more than 5 minutes."
So that is a slight vacillation in what Mrs. Churchill said.

(This is responding to my own concern about why Mrs. Churchill could be gone 5 minutes just across the street whereas Bridget was timed at a minimum of 6 minutes 15 seconds to go to Dr. Bowen's and then out again to go around to Alice's house, etc.)

I have just re-read Mrs. Churchill in the Witness Statements, inquest, Preliminary Hearing and Trial.

Also, I agree about Lizzie not appearing until she was ready to be seen, (or, if innocent, just standing there at the screen door leaning there). It is correct that Lizzie was sitting on the inside stair when Mrs. Churchill came and when she left her, and there "on that stair just the same" (T363) when she returned. I agree that if Lizzie needed a moment or two at that point she might have used those few moments, but can't think of anything Lizzie might have done that would contribute to this scenario.

It seems Mrs. Churchill also claims that Lizzie said *she thought she heard Mrs. Borden come in* when she herself first came over and was in the entryway touching Lizzie before she herself went out again to find a Doctor or her man of work. And she says that Lizzie said it again after Alice came. So Mrs. Churchill states Lizzie said it both times (T348 and T350). (Also Prelim. 217, hard copy.) That means we are not tied to the timing of Mrs. Churchill being gone for Lizzie to have thought she heard Mrs. Borden coming in.

Yes thank you Richard for sparking discussion on the timing test thru your video document!

[SteveS.]

Kat

That means we are not tied to the timing of Mrs. Churchill being gone for Lizzie to have thought she heard Mrs. Borden coming in.

that was a point I was trying to make. I always was under the impression that lizzie only said it after Alice was there so I couldn't figure out HOW she could of heard it and no one else did. But she very well could have heard something outside in the yard...she even said she did to Bridget(according to Bridget's testimony). She honestly could have heard the screen door (make a groan sound maybe?) ever hear a screen door that needs oiling? and thought Mrs. Borden came home.

[Shelley]

I think when we do a full scale timing with Bridget, Alice, Lizzie and Addie- putting them in real time again through all of the maneuvers they said they made, we will be able to narrow it down even tighter as to how much alone time Lizzie may have had in the house.

[SteveS.]

Shelley, that will be so awesome when you do a full scale timing of events. I think it will be a real eye opener to finally have all the pieces fitting together simultaneously.

[Shelley]

Well, we are looking forward to it Steve. The last mini was originally done to show the very short opportunity to have seen Mr. Borden coming home, then we were on a roll so we kept shooting the entire sequence with Bridget, aiming for the shortest possible time she could have squeezed in all she said she did in that mad dash back and forth the street and then off to get Alice and back. I think when all the characters are inserted, we will get a good grip on the overlap of who may have been there at the same time and how many minutes Lizzie would have been solo. We now have 13 members in the Pear Essentials Players, and with the Mutton Eaters and house staff, we have finally reached enough folks to fill in the major roles. The Pear Essentials Productions was begun in 1994 as a "dramatic" sideline to the Second Street Irregulars. and we have performed in some interesting places.
http://pearessentialproductions.wordpress.com/

[SteveS.]

Shelley, you guys really prooved your point of just how short of a window of opportunity (no window pun intended ) that Bridget, or even Lizzie for that matter had in seeing Andrew walking up 2nd st. on his way home. Unless someone was just sitting, waiting just for that exact moment to happen.

[Kat]

I was thinking the same thing. My feeling has been sometimes, that Bridget was on the lookout there- but mainly because she started washing the upper pane of the southwest window in the sitting room, which did not match where she started outside, at the southeast window. Her *pattern* changed and I might find that suspicious.

Also, please see topic for download, of "Lizzie fan" and her Second Street Irregulars in 1993:
viewtopic.php?t=3788&start=25

[Yooper]

The wrong house Bridget went into was on the corner of Borden and 2nd streets and it was when she was leaving there that she asked a man on the street for directions to Alice's house. She then went directly to Alice's house on Borden St. between 3rd and 4th sts.(Bridgets trial testiomony)

Mrs. Churchill was in front of the Burt's house, next house north of her own when she saw Bridget running across the street back from Dr. Bowens and she went directly in her house, into her kitchen, placed her purchases down on a bench and saw Lizzie standing in the side doorway and came directly over to the Bordens after talking to Lizzie through her kitchen window. She did not make any stops. (Mrs. Churchill's trial testimony)

I think you did a very good and reasonable job Shelley and Richard at trying to ascertain roughly how long it would take Bridget to complete her task. My only question would be exactly how much of that 6 plus minutes was Lizzie alone before Mrs. Churchill came over? From testimony it sounds to me that it appears Lizzie never left the spot near the side doorway when she sent Bridget to get Alice Russell and when Mrs. Churchill came over. Lizzie was at the side door when she sent Bridget to Dr. Bowens...she was still there when Bridget returned....she was there when she sent Bridget to get Alice and she was there when Mrs. Churchill first saw her and she was there when Mrs. Churchill got there. If she did leave that spot near the side door it could not have been for more then a minute or 2 at the most I would think. I don't know how much she could accomplish in that 1 -2 minutes. Sounds to me that she had to be fully ready to be seen when she called Bridget downstairs. There really wasn't a 6 plus minute time for her to do something.

Does that make sense?

This makes perfect sense, Steve. Lizzie was alone only for the time Mrs. Churchill was across the street. She was right next to the sink room so she might be able to maximize the short time she had if cleanup was necessary.

I think Lizzie hearing the screen door and describing it as a "groan" is reaching a bit. After living in the same house for twenty-odd years, whatever sound the screen door made, groan, squeak, or twang, would be described as having heard the screen door, not by the sound it made. The sound made would become an afterthought rather than the focus after several years of hearing it. It would be described as a "groan" in response to a question such as: "How did you know it was the screen door you heard?" If Lizzie was close enough to hear the door "groan", she was likely close enough to see someone leaving the house, or at least in the driveway, and certainly in the yard. She was specifically questioned about what she heard from the yard and barn by investigating officers, and she replied that she heard nothing. If she heard something, why didn't she tell the police? Why tell them the exact opposite?

[Shelley]

Somewhere we were discussing Bridget's being able to see Abby's body over the bed in the guest room. This past weekend one of our forum guests, "Dingus" visited and we tried the scenario out for size. Bridget either came right up to the side of the mattress and looked down, or else went to the foot of the bed and looked to the left on the floor. Just entering the room, the body cannot be seen.


With knees pressed against the right side of the mattress

[Angel]

Ewww! That hatchet on the chair in that last picture is creepy.

[Shelley]

Oh, I forgot that was there! We were walking through the several possibilities of the attack on Abby.

[Kat]

It looks, in pictures, like Abbie's head was about even with the middle part of the bureau, which would leave her legs sticking out farther beyond the bed, (even if we don't know the size of the bed- it would be relative to the bed). We don't know how far from the east wall that re-created bureau is, nor how far the original bureau was. And how tall is the Forum member and how tall was Bridget, do you know?

Personally, I doubt Bridget saw Abbie over the bed until she fully approached- I think her description, as we read it, was what we call "Bridget-speak."

[Shelley]

Well, I don't think height would make any difference for the victim being seen on the floor, it is all about angle. I am 5 feet 6 and in order to see anything on the floor on the other side of the bed, I had to go right in the room, press against the door side of the mattress and look over and down. I have measured from the middle button on the dresser Abby's height of 5 foot 3 inches, and her feet would not protrude out from thefoot of the bed enough to be seen from the door, once again that is an angle issue. I thought I had read somewhere that Bridget said she went in the room and was at the foot of the bed when she saw Abby, which makes more sense.