I was watching the short film on Mondo Lizzie's August 1, '08 entry ("Lizzie Lives") and was enjoying this well-done piece (there was the recently found Little Lizzie photo framed and displayed!). But I had to wonder when the tour guide at the murder house gave the tourists - and the film - the wrong information when she came to the part of the discovery of Abby's body.
The guide said Bridget went up the stairs and saw the body from about half-way up the stairs.
I was just reading Mrs. Churchill's testimony, and that isn't what she said happened.
Mrs. Churchill went up the stairs with Bridget to look for Mrs. Borden. It was Mrs. Churchill who saw Abby's body from the stairs. She did not go further but ran back downstairs where someone asked her, "Is there another?" Mrs. Churchill did not know what happened to Bridget.
Bridget tells in her testimony that she (Bridget) ran into the guest room. She was not sure how far she went into the room; she was pretty rattled. She said that there was not a lot of light in the room.
I realize when giving these tours, there's a lot of information to relay to the people on the tour. My intent is not to point any finger of shame toward any one, but I post in hopes that if this was more than a simple oversight, it can be corrected.
Wrong Info on Lizzie Goes Out
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augusta
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Shelley
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Prelim:Bridget
A. Miss Lizzie Borden. I said I would not go up stairs; and Mrs. Churchill said she was willing to go with me; so me and Mrs. Churchill went up the front stairs. There we found Mrs. Borden.
Q. Did you see her before you got in?
A. I saw her as I went in; but I stood at the foot of the bed and looked at her.
Q. Was the door open then into the room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you disturb or touch the body in any way?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did anybody while you were there?
A. No Sir.
Q. You said you saw her before you went in?
A. Yes Sir, I could see her as I went in. Of course the bed was not a very high bed, I could see her body, her dress; and then I stood at the foot of the bed and looked at her.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I came down stairs.
Q. Did anyone else come by that time?
A. No Sir, Mrs. Churchill came with me. I do not know whether she went into the room or not, I cannot tell. Me and her came down stairs and she told Dr. Bowen that Mrs. Borden was up stairs.
Q. Where was Lizzie then?
A. In the kitchen with Miss Russell.
A. Miss Lizzie Borden. I said I would not go up stairs; and Mrs. Churchill said she was willing to go with me; so me and Mrs. Churchill went up the front stairs. There we found Mrs. Borden.
Q. Did you see her before you got in?
A. I saw her as I went in; but I stood at the foot of the bed and looked at her.
Q. Was the door open then into the room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you disturb or touch the body in any way?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did anybody while you were there?
A. No Sir.
Q. You said you saw her before you went in?
A. Yes Sir, I could see her as I went in. Of course the bed was not a very high bed, I could see her body, her dress; and then I stood at the foot of the bed and looked at her.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I came down stairs.
Q. Did anyone else come by that time?
A. No Sir, Mrs. Churchill came with me. I do not know whether she went into the room or not, I cannot tell. Me and her came down stairs and she told Dr. Bowen that Mrs. Borden was up stairs.
Q. Where was Lizzie then?
A. In the kitchen with Miss Russell.
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Shelley
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Addie Churchill Prelim
Q. Did you go up ahead, or Bridget?
A. I do not remember, I think Bridget was ahead, but I do not remember.
Q. You think she was?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she go into the room before you looked in and saw Mrs. Borden’s body?
A. I do not know.
Q. She said, as I recollect it, that she went into the room to the foot of the bed, and looked over and saw Mrs. Borden; do you recollect whether she went in before you, looked and saw, or not?
A. I do not know; I did not stop to see.
Q. You think she went up ahead of you; cannot you recollect whether she opened the door or not?
A. The door was open.
Q. Are you sure about that?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you come down with Bridget, or come down alone, when you came down?
A. I came down alone.
Q. You left Bridget up there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You do not know what she did after you came down?
A. No Sir.
The ambiguous thing here is Bridget did not say that she did not see Abby when Mrs. Churchill saw her, under the bed, that is. If Bridget had gone up the stairs and was far ahead of Addie, she may not have looked to the left. When she says she saw her after she entered the room, it sounds as if she means because the bed was so low, she could see her over the footboard. I wish she had given more detail. If it were me, if I had heard Addie exclaim or gasp at the body under the bed, I would have stepped back to see what she saw and not have continued going up the stairs (there are thirteen of them so it takes the average person about halfway to reach eye level, or step 7 to get the view of the upper hall landing when ascending). I guess we may never know exactly how that unfolded as the two seemed pretty unsure themselves of all that happened after the shock of finding Abby. I cover all bases by saying the body was seen under the bed and Bridget went into the room while Addie went downstairs. I have always been impressed by Bridget's bravery in going in there.
Q. Did you go up ahead, or Bridget?
A. I do not remember, I think Bridget was ahead, but I do not remember.
Q. You think she was?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she go into the room before you looked in and saw Mrs. Borden’s body?
A. I do not know.
Q. She said, as I recollect it, that she went into the room to the foot of the bed, and looked over and saw Mrs. Borden; do you recollect whether she went in before you, looked and saw, or not?
A. I do not know; I did not stop to see.
Q. You think she went up ahead of you; cannot you recollect whether she opened the door or not?
A. The door was open.
Q. Are you sure about that?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you come down with Bridget, or come down alone, when you came down?
A. I came down alone.
Q. You left Bridget up there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You do not know what she did after you came down?
A. No Sir.
The ambiguous thing here is Bridget did not say that she did not see Abby when Mrs. Churchill saw her, under the bed, that is. If Bridget had gone up the stairs and was far ahead of Addie, she may not have looked to the left. When she says she saw her after she entered the room, it sounds as if she means because the bed was so low, she could see her over the footboard. I wish she had given more detail. If it were me, if I had heard Addie exclaim or gasp at the body under the bed, I would have stepped back to see what she saw and not have continued going up the stairs (there are thirteen of them so it takes the average person about halfway to reach eye level, or step 7 to get the view of the upper hall landing when ascending). I guess we may never know exactly how that unfolded as the two seemed pretty unsure themselves of all that happened after the shock of finding Abby. I cover all bases by saying the body was seen under the bed and Bridget went into the room while Addie went downstairs. I have always been impressed by Bridget's bravery in going in there.
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snokkums
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I've never read that Bridget go into the room. Everything that I have read was that Lizzie told her to get help because "Father is dead." And it was Mrs. Churchill found the body of Abby. Is my information wrong; I'm wrong?
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
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Shelley
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Bridget did go to get help at Dr. Bowen's, then went to get Alice Russell after Lizzie says she found her father. It is later that Bridget is asked to go look for Mrs. Borden, and Mrs. Churchill volunteered to go upstairs with her. It sounds that Addie Churchill may have been the only one to see Abby under the bed, hard to know if Bridget did too as she went up the stairs ahead of Addie and may not have turned her head to look to the left. But Bridget was the one to go in the room and saw Abby on the floor. Bridget could not recall whether or not Addie was with her then, but Addie does not seem to remember going into the room and seeing Abby on the floor.
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Kat
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Dr. Bowen, at the inquest, is confusing as well:
(118/25)
Q. Up the front stairs?
A. Yes, went up the front stairs. As I got at the top of the stairs, as soon as I got up on the second story, I could look right over the deb, and I saw her lying there flat, prone. My thought was, that she had run up there and fainted. I went right around the foot of the bed and satisfied myself in an instant that she was not living. I dont know whether I got hold of her pulse, but I satisfied myself some way, I dont know how, that she was not living. I went right down stairs again and told them Mrs. Borden was dead, killed the same instant, I think I said that.
Q. When you looked over the bed and saw the form on the floor, where were you, in the hall way?
A. I think I must have been. I don't think I should probably have
119 (26)
looked until I got up to the top of the stairs. I could, if I had been looking, have looked as soon as my head got level, I might then have seen her under the bed. I went directly up fast, and as soon as I looked in the door, I looked over the bed.
Q. So where she was lying, you could see it from the head of the stairs?
A. Not exactly. You would have to come up the head of the stairs and go back a little.
Mrs. Churchill
Inquest
129
. . .Then Lizzie said she wished someone would go and try to find Mrs. Borden up stairs, so I went with Bridget. I think Bridget went ahead of me. I got half way up the front stairs, I got just far enough so my head was level with the front entry floor, I turned my head to the left, and in turning my head to the left, I could see straight across the spare bed room floor, and at the north side of the bed I saw something that looked like a prostrate form of something. I could distinguish nothing, the room was not light, it was a little darker, darker than down stairs. It looked more than any mat would be on the floor. I turned around and went back. I dont know whether I said out loud “that must be her”. I think Bridget went up stairs, how far she went, I dont know, because I was so shocked. I went down stairs, went into the dining room, and Alice Russell says, “is there another”? “Yes, she is up there”.
--Maybe Dr. Bowen and Bridget were taller than Mrs. Churchill, and therefore could see her over the bed, and their momentum kept them going?
But it has seemed Mrs. Churchill was the first to see Mrs. Borden from the stair and then turned and went back downstairs. It's an interesting question as to who was first to see Abbie.
(118/25)
Q. Up the front stairs?
A. Yes, went up the front stairs. As I got at the top of the stairs, as soon as I got up on the second story, I could look right over the deb, and I saw her lying there flat, prone. My thought was, that she had run up there and fainted. I went right around the foot of the bed and satisfied myself in an instant that she was not living. I dont know whether I got hold of her pulse, but I satisfied myself some way, I dont know how, that she was not living. I went right down stairs again and told them Mrs. Borden was dead, killed the same instant, I think I said that.
Q. When you looked over the bed and saw the form on the floor, where were you, in the hall way?
A. I think I must have been. I don't think I should probably have
119 (26)
looked until I got up to the top of the stairs. I could, if I had been looking, have looked as soon as my head got level, I might then have seen her under the bed. I went directly up fast, and as soon as I looked in the door, I looked over the bed.
Q. So where she was lying, you could see it from the head of the stairs?
A. Not exactly. You would have to come up the head of the stairs and go back a little.
Mrs. Churchill
Inquest
129
. . .Then Lizzie said she wished someone would go and try to find Mrs. Borden up stairs, so I went with Bridget. I think Bridget went ahead of me. I got half way up the front stairs, I got just far enough so my head was level with the front entry floor, I turned my head to the left, and in turning my head to the left, I could see straight across the spare bed room floor, and at the north side of the bed I saw something that looked like a prostrate form of something. I could distinguish nothing, the room was not light, it was a little darker, darker than down stairs. It looked more than any mat would be on the floor. I turned around and went back. I dont know whether I said out loud “that must be her”. I think Bridget went up stairs, how far she went, I dont know, because I was so shocked. I went down stairs, went into the dining room, and Alice Russell says, “is there another”? “Yes, she is up there”.
--Maybe Dr. Bowen and Bridget were taller than Mrs. Churchill, and therefore could see her over the bed, and their momentum kept them going?
But it has seemed Mrs. Churchill was the first to see Mrs. Borden from the stair and then turned and went back downstairs. It's an interesting question as to who was first to see Abbie.
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Shelley
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I have tried to repeat this sequence of events but the big problem is the bed. I think the bed today is taller than the bed was in 1892. One thing for sure though, if you stand at the top of the stairs, you cannot see the floor on the other side of the bed. I also believe that to have seen Abby in 1892 it would have been necessary to go into the room to the door side of the mattress and look OVER the mattress and down at the floor to be able to see anything that way. Bridget's view from the footboard is a straight shot looking down of course, and an easy view of the body from that angle.
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Harry
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Mary Brigham at the Preliminary hearing testified to the experiment that she and Uncle John did in the guest room. Page 472:
"Q. Did you make an experiment this noon, Mrs. Brigham, to see if you could see a person lying flat upon the floor between the bed and the bureau, while you were standing on the upper entry floor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you stand there yourself?
A. I did.
Q. Did you have anybody lie down between the bureau and the bed?
A. I did.
Q. Who was it?
A. Mr. Morse.
Q. Could you see any portion of his person while he was lying there?
A. Not any."
"Q. Did you make an experiment this noon, Mrs. Brigham, to see if you could see a person lying flat upon the floor between the bed and the bureau, while you were standing on the upper entry floor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you stand there yourself?
A. I did.
Q. Did you have anybody lie down between the bureau and the bed?
A. I did.
Q. Who was it?
A. Mr. Morse.
Q. Could you see any portion of his person while he was lying there?
A. Not any."
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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Kat
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I think Kieran said he couldn't see anyone from the entry either.
I also think that Bowen and Bridget had somewhat entered the room when they saw Abbie's body. The momentum I mentioned may be why they are not exactly clear as to where they were when they espied the body- sort of like shock made them not explicit.
I also think that Bowen and Bridget had somewhat entered the room when they saw Abbie's body. The momentum I mentioned may be why they are not exactly clear as to where they were when they espied the body- sort of like shock made them not explicit.
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Shelley
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Here is the sequence coming up the steps. At the top you are actually looking at a wall and must bear left to go into the room. Bowen had to go inside the room and look down over the mattress to see Abby.
The 7th step gives the average person a view under the bed. I seem to recall reading a clothes press or something like a trunk was in this area outside the dress closet too.
The 7th step gives the average person a view under the bed. I seem to recall reading a clothes press or something like a trunk was in this area outside the dress closet too.-
Shelley
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Shelley
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Every Friday night around 8:45 I am on the floor in Abby's position and the overnight guests are coming upstairs to experience the view, which is indeed, quite an eyeopener. On August the 4th people gasp, cringe, stare, and some even take photos under the bed themselves. They are in the moment in 1892- they are there.
You can read about this in books, of course, and we all could only do that for so many years- but actually going through the steps oneself in the house, at the scene of the crime adds so much dimension to it all. Photos are the next best thing, and I have enjoyed shooting the angles and presenting the possibilities so much over the years. I have just begun a 360 degree room by room approach over at the blogsite. What a great tool the internet proves to be making the impossible possible for so many who may never get to #92 Second St.
You can read about this in books, of course, and we all could only do that for so many years- but actually going through the steps oneself in the house, at the scene of the crime adds so much dimension to it all. Photos are the next best thing, and I have enjoyed shooting the angles and presenting the possibilities so much over the years. I have just begun a 360 degree room by room approach over at the blogsite. What a great tool the internet proves to be making the impossible possible for so many who may never get to #92 Second St.
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Bob Gutowski
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augusta
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Fabulous photos, Shelley! Thank you for posting them!
I am sorry that I did not post testimony when I started this thread. I was on vacation, pretty sick, and did not have any books with me.
That's so true - you really need to go to the house to appreciate that view from the stairs - and also the incredible, claustrophobic layout of that house. I had read about that house layout for years before I went inside the house. It was incredible to experience how it really was, one door leading to another.
Thank you Kat, Shelley and Harry for posting the testimony.
I am sorry that I did not post testimony when I started this thread. I was on vacation, pretty sick, and did not have any books with me.
That's so true - you really need to go to the house to appreciate that view from the stairs - and also the incredible, claustrophobic layout of that house. I had read about that house layout for years before I went inside the house. It was incredible to experience how it really was, one door leading to another.
Thank you Kat, Shelley and Harry for posting the testimony.