Spur of the moment or well thought out?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:42 pm

So now I'm wondering if Morse and Andrew might have conspired to kill Abbie!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:03 pm

Thing is- what is the motive for Morse and Andrew to kill Abby? Motive, in the end is the most important thing. Andrew controlled his fortune, and could do as he wished when he made his will. Abby was no threat or obstacle to him in any way. Not to mention the obvious- Andrew is going to end up dead too shortly after! The simplest explanation as to why Morse and Andrew did not chum on down to the Post Office together could be an easy one- Andrew probably DID go to the barber shop and Morse, not being a particularly dapper and tidy person by newspaper accounts, probably was an infrequent customer to the barber trade and had no care in the world about how he looked in the morning. He probably slept in his union suit and just pulled on his suit of clothes he had on the day before as he had nothing else. I wonder that he even had a toothbrush-most likely not.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:01 am

Well Andrew's murder might not be contingent upon Abbie's murder. It's been opined many times that there might have been 2 weapons and that can denote 2 killers. I guess Abbie's murder could also have possibly facilitated Andrew's in a way we have yet to explore. There are lots of variables here with this possible theory of the crimes.
As for motive, maybe Andrew wanted a new wife. His uncle Laddy had 4 wives!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:06 am

Well, divorce is an easier way to rid oneself of a spouse- with a nice little settlement, Abby could have moved in right next to Sarah back at the family homestead on 4th Street and old studmuffin Andrew could have married his hot tamale. Now there is an unlikely scenario!

I have a hard time accepting 2 different murderers with two different weapons for 2 different motives and both occurring on the same day. The chances of this must be astronomical. Of course I also have a hard time believing murder by hatchet in broad daylight could be anybody's idea of a pre-planned murder. Murder by hatchet is, however, an action and weapon of desperation, sudden anger or fear.

DJ · Post by DJ » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:19 pm

My conspiracy theory ties Lizzie, Emma, and Morse together-- that Emma wanted Morse down there to assist Lizzie not with the actual murders, but in case she found herself too closed in upon, or if she weren't dotting all her i's and crossing all her t's.
IOW: I believe he knew she was planning, if possible, to strike that a.m., that the letter to Emma would have probably gotten Mr. Borden out of the house, that Morse was watching to make sure Mr. Borden did make it to the P.O., which meant that:
Mr. Borden HAD left the house that a.m., leaving Lizzie time to TCB.
(I've also stated before that I believe Morse, knowing Thursday-- from Lizzie-- was Bridget's window-washing day, indeed brought up the matter of dirty windows at the breakfast table, to make sure Bridget was out-of-doors for Lizzie's benefit, and that this is why Morse testifies repeatedly that Abby gave the order at breakfast, while Bridget testifies that it came later.)
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Of course, these are suppositions, but it would have been incredibly easy for JVM and Lizzie to have communicated that night.
They protest too fiercely about there having been no communication on the 3rd/4th, indeed at no point that summer.
Similarly, I believe Morse did NOT want to walk to the P.O. or be seen in public with Mr. Borden that a.m. I believe that's why he cut out early, so it wouldn't seem as if he were steering Mr. Borden out of the house so that Lizzie could TCB.
But, he needs to know that Mr. Borden has left the house, before he (Morse) goes on to establish his alibi at the Emerys'. (Because Lizzie wouldn't have taken on Abby with Andrew on the premises.)
That is where Lizzie's letter comes in handy.
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IOW: I believe Morse and Lizzie worked out these particulars after everyone else was in bed, the evening of the 3rd/4th.
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Anyway, just a theory!
Either he did or he didn't.
Why would he? Well, here are some possibilities:
(1) Love of Emma, and she asked him to help her, perhaps playing off the memory of her mother-- his sister-- how she would have had everything, had she lived, so it's only right that Emma and Lizzie have the full share.
(2) Envy of Mr. Borden's success. Here's JVM, providing business help/advice, and how does he (Morse) benefit? He's certainly not becoming anywhere near as wealthy as Mr. Borden.
(3) I believe JVM was attached to the Borden farm in Swansea (one of them-- Lizzie says there were two). The one that Mr. Borden is apparently going to will out of the family. No surprise that that's right where JVM is, the late afternoon of the 3rd. (It's interesting that Lizzie ties fishing at that farm into her "going to the barn" alibi.)
I believe JVM got ticked that Mr. Borden didn't at least offer to sell him the farm, if not out-and-out give it to him, in thanks for all his (Morse's) business advice. No, Mr. Borden is planning to give it to the Old Ladies' Home.
As for Abby-- I don't believe there was any great affection between her and Morse. When she accommodates his arriving late for a meal, and his presence otherwise, I believe she's just being a good hostess. Also, it was the era of "men first," even if the lady didn't care for him all that much. Anyway, Morse doesn't seem to be all torn up about her death. Anymore than Lizzie does.
************************************************************* Back to the parcel: That which is in the oven that a.m., what Bridget says she saw Mr. Borden carrying. I think she said he put it on the dining-room table. Doesn't Dr. Bowen spot it in the back of the oven? Isn't it a bundle of papers?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:56 pm

I think Andrew came in with something in his hand, and took it into the diningroom to read it, then went upstairs to his room while Bridget was in the diningroom. Bowen opened the stove much later to toss in a bit of paper which had the word "Emma" on it and told the policeman it was nothing of importance , about his "daughter coming through". and something cylindrical was seen in the firebox. It had the shape of a rolled newspaper which had been burned slowly through or something like that but nobody ever investigated as to what it was exactly. There was some speculation it might have been the hatchet handle.

Who is TCB in the post above?

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:12 pm

If a Kat with white hair crosses your post, what does it mean?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:14 pm

Forgive me playing catch up again. I'm still reading over the thread but I did want to go ahead and post my opinion on one matter that is dicussed here. My opinion as to why Morse did not walk to the Post Office with Andrew is pretty straight forward. Morse left the house before Lizzie came downstairs. I am assuming Lizzie didn't give the letter to Andrew until that morning when she came downstairs. She seems to say in her testimony that she wrote the letter that Thursday morning. Andrew did not even know he was mailing a letter for Lizzie until she came downstairs and asked him to send it. Therefore, at the time of John's departure neither he nor Andrew had any idea of the letter Lizzie was going to ask Andrew to mail. I'm not sure, but do we know if Morse discussed the fact that he had a letter he needed to mail with Andrew? So why would the two set out for the post office together?

Also if Morse knew that Andrew was going out that morning anyway, to tend to his business and whatever other daily rituals the man had, why would he offer to go to the post office to get his mail? He woudn't really be saving him a trip out of the house. Andrew was out and about town anyway. It could've been a courtesy to ask, yes. But wouldn't have really kept Andrew in the house that morning.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:26 pm

"She seems to say in her testimony that she wrote the letter that Thursday morning. Andrew did not even know he was mailing a letter for Lizzie until she came downstairs and asked him to send it. Therefore, at the time of John's departure neither he nor Andrew had any idea of the letter Lizzie was going to ask Andrew to mail"

Precisely correct on all counts. I recall that Andrew was sitting on the sofa when Lizzie passed through the sitting room AFTER John had left.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:08 pm

Another issue that has always bothered me is the closed door to the guest room. Lizzie stated that it was closed when she passed by on the way to her room. This seems to be her excuse for why she did not see Abby lieing there. Yet all other witnesses stated it was open. What I've always wondered is if maybe Lizzie didn't close the door to try to discourage anyone from finding Abby before she was ready for her to be found. Then she opened it to set the stage for the discovery.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:25 pm

Yes, excellent point. We only have Lizzie's word for it that the door was ever closed. We know it was opened because Mrs. Churchill saw the body under the bed. Most likely it was always open but for those who think Lizzie was guilty, she had every reason to want it closed so Abby was out of sight either living or dead so she could presume that she had gone out.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:44 am

Actually, I've always liked that closed guest room door- in favor of Lizzie for once.
As for going downtown together, the PO was on the way to where Andrew was headed. Whether he went first to the PO or last to the PO I don't know. I suggested a map for those on *Andrew's Last Walk.*
Here is a map piece - notice the x's I have put there. These follow up Second Street to right near the PO. At Pleasant, Morse could turn right and go to Weybosset. Andrew could take a slight jog there to the left and be at Main Street where he went to the banks.

(This will be a big map piece. If you like, please click on the picture in the box to open on its own page.)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:55 am

It looks like the Union Savings Bank opened at 9 a.m.
This would be the first bank Andrew went to.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:01 am

Here are the Post Office hours- 7 a.m. opens.
Just for our info.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:56 am

Allen, why would Lizzie have to worry about closing the guest door at all when no one in the house would be going up front but she herself after she'd killed Abby?

I think she merely SAID the guest door was closed so it would be clear to her listeners that there was no way she could've known Abby was in there, kissing the carpet.

DJ · Post by DJ » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:20 am

Kat,
Thanks for digging up the info on the P.O.'s opening hours!!! I felt sure that it opened at least by 8 a.m., for those who had to TCB before they saw to their workaday schedules.
[Shelley: "TCB"-- "Take, or Taking, Care of Business," a holdover from the '70s, perhaps more obscure than I thought.]
Anyway, the P.O. info reinforces my wondering at Uncle Morse hanging around for so long after breakfast, when he could have proceeded on, to send his card. Yes, I realize he doesn't wish to call too early at the Emerys', but, had he made it there by nine o'clock, he wouldn't have missed the nephew.
In that day (as opposed to ours), calling in at nine would have been more socially acceptable.
So, it seems to me Uncle Morse could have easily left the Bordens' a good 30 minutes or more earlier, that a.m.
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It seems to me he's killing an awful lot of time that a.m., when he's promised Mr. Davis he'll be back as soon as possible. To wit: Morse doesn't proceed on with his letter when he could have; he tarries at the Emerys' while his niece is ailing.
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Furthermore, if Morse had left the Bordens' RIGHT after breakfast, gone on to the P.O., and arrived at the Emerys' around 8:30, I'm sure they would have excused his early arrival if he'd made his apologies with, "I was just in town a short while, and I did so want to speak to my niece and nephew before I left," and I don't think anyone would have thought the worse of him.
AND: He wouldn't have missed the nephew.
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So, why does Morse take so long to leave the Bordens' that a.m.?
[I believe it was to make sure events were headed in Lizzie's favor. Probably, too, to sneak upstairs and steal a word with her. As long as Bridget didn't see him do it, he's covered. Also, so he could be preoccupied the entire morning before checking back at the house. So Lizzie would have had the full a.m. to TCB.]

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:25 am

It's possible that after Andrew got home he might have went upstairs to look for Abby if he believed she was home. But Lizzie took care of that with the "note". Even if he thought she had gone out, there is always a possibility Andrew might go up and check the guest room. He could go anywhere in the house he liked at any time. Especially if he thought something was amiss for whatever reason.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:21 pm

Off the subject for one moment-- cute picture, Melissa

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:52 pm

The premiss that if Morse would've left earlier he would've gotten to spend some time with the nephew assumes that he knew whether the nephew would or would not be there when he arrived. I don't know if we can assume this.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:25 pm

It has always hit me that Morse enjoyed shooting the breeze with Andrew-the men had much in common. I see them Wednesday night, holding forth on the Swansea trip and what was new there until after Abby went up to bed. Remember, Andrew lived in an all-female household and a man near his own age must have been a real joy to kick back with. They did linger at breakfast joking about things in the newspaper-people took time for conversation in those days- and it had been awhile since the men had been together. John gets up to leave around a quarter to nine because he probably has an idea of Andrew's usual routine and the banks will be open soon-so he takes his leave. Andrew asks him back for lunch which tells me he enjoys Morse's male companionship and chitchat. My husband (also surrounded by women) is quite a chatterbox when a male happens to stop by and gabs about the lawn and fishing and his new tools, etc. I think this is all there is to it. It has been one happy thought I have held over the years, Andrew had some enjoyment before his horrible death. I cannot believe his life could have been easy in that house of women.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:45 pm

Oh, I wanted to reply to you earlier Angel but I got wrapped up in a conversation with my son and forgot to reply

Thank you. I think you look lovely in your picture also.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:57 pm

Shelley @ Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:25 pm wrote:It has always hit me that Morse enjoyed shooting the breeze with Andrew-the men had much in common. I see them Wednesday night, holding forth on the Swansea trip and what was new there until after Abby went up to bed. Remember, Andrew lived in an all-female household and a man near his own age must have been a real joy to kick back with. They did linger at breakfast joking about things in the newspaper-people took time for conversation in those days- and it had been awhile since the men had been together. John gets up to leave around a quarter to nine because he probably has an idea of Andrew's usual routine and the banks will be open soon-so he takes his leave. Andrew asks him back for lunch which tells me he enjoys Morse's male companionship and chitchat. My husband (also surrounded by women) is quite a chatterbox when a male happens to stop by and gabs about the lawn and fishing and his new tools, etc. I think this is all there is to it. It has been one happy thought I have held over the years, Andrew had some enjoyment before his horrible death. I cannot believe his life could have been easy in that house of women.

This makes a lot of sense to me as well. This was a time when every home didn't possess telephones, computers/ internet, televisions, radios, or any of the other technical marvels we take so for granted today. Most interaction took place face to face, or by postal mail. In my opinion conversations were more leisurely, and more of a treat if they took place with someone that hadn't been seen for a long time. Sitting down and talking about the happenings in each others lives, or your plans for the future, or even as Shelly said- to shoot the breeze- was a mainstay in communication. Something that in our world of instant messeges, answering machines, and text messeges we kind of lose the value of.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:16 am

Yes I do like your picture too, Missy!

(I'm behind in reading this topic- I will catch up soon.)

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:01 am

Kat @ Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:42 pm wrote:So now I'm wondering if Morse and Andrew might have conspired to kill Abbie!

I could really run with this one. Andrew was having an affair wiht a "pretty young thing". Either Andy fessed up or Morse already knew. At any rate, Andrew, being the tight wad that he was, was discussing a way to rid himself of paying out any money to any one. If he called it off with the "hottie", might of had to have had to pay some hush money. If he divorced Abby, he'd had to shell out money in the settlement. So, lets' just get rid of Abby.

Morse agrees, thinking to himself that maybe Andy was screwing around on his first wife, his sister, and getting madder and madder about that.

So they go kill Abby, by this time Morse is just insane with anger, and turns on Andrew.

Boy, is that scenario far fetched!! But, I had fun with it! LOL!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:32 am

May I do some commenting, after the posts?

DJ: I was thinking after you said ". . .Uncle Morse could have easily left the Bordens' a good 30 minutes or more earlier, that a.m."-- that maybe, actually, Morse hung around longer in order to keep Andrew at home longer, for some reason?

--Or maybe Lizzie wasn't finished with her letter and Morse was to plant the idea in Andrew that he should go out that morning. We don't know that Andrew had planned to go out at all.

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Also, when you said "He wouldn't have missed the nephew."-- Allen (Missy) makes the same point I would have, that we don't know when the nephew would or would not be there. Also, to add to the idea of the nephew, remember those Morse family members from Minnesota had to have been visiting around the area for quite a while- people traveling that far tended to stay for weeks, and with Morse staying in South Dartmouth, he could have arranged to see the niece and nephew whenever they all had time to get together. Morse seems to have had time to do that. After the 4th tho, things changed.

But I wonder what the Morse kin from out of town did during the time of their cousin Lizzie's inquest and even right after the deaths? It's funny that we don't have info on what happened to the Morse *kids* after the 3rd. We don't read they were at the service at Second Street on Saturday; we don't have their names as being at the gravesite after. We don't see their names in the paper as visiting their cousins E & L on that Friday.
I wonder why? I wonder did their father Wm. Bradford Morse come for them? Were they traumatized? Were they sent home right away? Were they escorted home on the train to get them out of the publicity? Did they hole up in Swansea with their other cousins? Lots of questions about these kids.

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Snokkums: Lot's of inventive thinking is always appreciated.

DJ · Post by DJ » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:13 pm

Kat,
If Morse was full-blooded brother to Lizzie's and Emma's Mother, then the niece and nephew would have been their first cousins, right?
If so, there's another reason for Morse and Lizzie to have allegedly NOT spoken. Surely, Lizzie knew of their visit. Why would she withhold that information from Morse?
However, Morse makes out as if he doesn't learn of the niece and nephew visiting until the evening of the 3rd.
Anyway, if they're first cousins to Lizzie, and she's charged, they were probably spirited out of town.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:32 am

Yes the niece and nephew are the children of Wm. Bradford Morse, Emma and Lizzie's uncle: Sarah's brother.

I had not ever really wondered what became of them after the killings. Maybe they did visit the orphans (E&L) and then retired to Providence or Swansea where they had more family. Annie Morse (the niece) ended up benefitting from Morse's will, later, above the rest of his bequests.

We read tho too, that the Emery's were playing croquet on the lawn at Weybosset the afternoon of the murder, when the reporter came to check on that part of the family (Fall River Globe, August 5, 1892-found by Harry). It's weird.

Because of the Emery/Morse/Mason connection, I think some of Morse's alibi might be suspect- like when he arrived. In the Evening Standard of August 6, 1892, Mrs. Kingsley (who also lived at Weybosset) supposedly knew around about when Morse arrived and about when he left, but doesn't give a time. I think she is related too- tho I've not proved that yet.

kssunflower · Post by **kssunflower** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:45 am

This is a really interesting post and all this conjecture about Morse's involvement makes me wonder how thoroughly he was questioned. I know he had an alibi, but I guess he wasn't even considered as an accomplice?

DJ · Post by DJ » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:58 pm

Well, either Morse was in the wrong place at the wrong time, OR:
He was knee-deep in it.
If there were just two or three oddities in his behavior the 3rd/4th, they could be excused, but they do seem to amount up.
One of his strangest actions, to me, is found in the police reports, wherein he provides his statement, then-- unprompted-- launches into a theory about how the murders were committed, relative to an unsolved case!
Now, stop. Take a deep breath. And consider:
If you were at a murder scene, where two people you knew well had been slaughtered, wouldn't you have difficulty just making a simple statement, much less supplying the authorities with your on-the-spot solution to the case?
Remember, Morse is supposedly very close to Mr. B.
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Personally, I would have had my arms around my niece, but I suppose Morse and Lizzie were still too busy distancing themselves, one from the other. (No, no, no: They've had no contact, not even that summer. Too damned much protestation for my tastes.)
And, it's the LACK of such displays of sympathy and condolence that no doubt played against Lizzie, and cast a still-unflattering light on Morse as well.

Ad · Post by Ad » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:45 pm

I agree, the lack of ANY amount of emotion from any of the household; except perhaps Bridget, makes it that much more puzzling and hard to shift the suspicion onto someone else.

It’s hard enough to keep a clear head when you lose a family member to normal circumstances let alone to all out butchery. JVM is way too together and shows a large lack of concern for the situation or his nieces and their well being

I believe Morse is knee deep in it; his alibi is WAY too solid, his odd behavior when he returned to the house is glaring. I just can’t piece him into the puzzle correctly.

I have always wondered how a person(s) could break bread with the family in the morning knowing full well that they would be dead before the clock struck noon the same day.

I would have made a lousy murderer; my heart would be pounding so loud that you wouldn’t be able to hear my words when I spoke to you.

No emotion is very telling.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:07 pm

What would be Morse's motivation for returning to the Borden residence for lunch if he had knowledge of the pending murder(s)? It wasn't to coach Lizzie in any way, because he simply didn't do that.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:35 am

Sorry for going off on my own on this, but I had an idea come to me. In mulling over some of the statements about Morse that have been made in the past, one of the points that have been raised is the fact that the Emery's seemed to have been under the impression that Morse was headed to New Bedford when he left their home. The more I think about it, the more this makes sense. If Morse was under the impression that his business with Andrew was going to be concluded that day, not knowing about the murder, he probably planned to do just that. He might have believed he would conclude their business and head to New Bedford. He might have made a statement about it that day when he left the house for this reason.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:44 am

Morse has always given me the impression that he was his own man, did things when he wanted to do them, and had the luxury of flexibility which only a bachelor with means can have. I am not in that position myself, but many is the day I have options, and sometimes change my mind about where I am going and what I will do at the last minute. The invitation to come back to eat lunch was offered, Morse had finished his visiting and he had the option to go back to Davis', or New Bedford, or to stopover for a bite with Andrew before going on. He probably did not know what the day would bring himself when he left #92 that morning. Perhaps he was just plain hungry, did not want to spend money at a restaurant or put the ladies out at Weybosset street, and took Andrew up on the offer. If he had anything to do with the morning's butchery on Second Street, I would think he would have gotten on a train and beat feet out of Fall River, not walked in nonchalantly into the scene of the crime and stop to eat a pear. I would get out of Dodge!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:47 am

Yooper @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:07 pm wrote:What would be Morse's motivation for returning to the Borden residence for lunch if he had knowledge of the pending murder(s)? It wasn't to coach Lizzie in any way, because he simply didn't do that.

In my opinion, if Morse was involved his strategy would've been to return to the house many hours after the bodies were discovered and the police began their inquiries. He could've milked his visit with the Emery's for all it was worth. Or until some news was eventually brought to inform him of the tragedy and his need to return. He could've hired transportation and went visiting back over in Swansea at Mr. Vinnicums. He could've distanced himself from the situation a lot more than he actually did. Then there would be little or no doubt as to his innocence. But he seems to have done what he stated Andrew urged him to and visit his niece and nephew he had not seen in many years, and then return in time for the noon meal. With a statement to the Emery's about going to New Bedford which leads me to believe he was under the impression his business would be concluded that day.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:57 pm

Morse would have been better off if he had just gone home from the Borden house without stopping to visit the Emerys if he had prior knowledge of the murders. He apparently had nothing to do with committing the murders and little or nothing to do with covering them up. His presence in Fall River was not required by anyone, and the invitation to lunch probably kept him at his niece and nephew's house as long as it did. It makes no sense for him to remain in Fall River based upon his actions afterward, assuming prior knowledge of the murders.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:14 pm

I truly believe that Morse had somehow heard of what happened before he got home, so that is the reason he was so specific about his return (i.e. the conductor's badge number, the number of priests on the trolley, etc.) because on the way back he thought about how he might need to cover himself.

I also believe that Lizzie had some scheme in her mind, but not that violent, until someone came to the door that morning. She slammed the door in fury and lost it.

And then when Andrew came home early she didn't have time to think it through, so she panicked and thought she would have to do away with him too to protect her alibi, which was shakey enough to start out with. She was probably the kind of person who had to plan things out carefully, so when she lost it and impulsively struck out in anger she was out of her element in finding a quick explanation to cover her whereabouts. It's amazing that her feeble attempt worked.

kssunflower · Post by **kssunflower** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:56 pm

Just a thought, but maybe Lizzie was more motivated to carry out her plan that day because Morse had been a guest in the house. Just one more person the police could have under suspicion other than her.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:53 pm

I can understand Morse returning if he heard about the murders or some trouble at the Borden house while he was visiting or on the way back for lunch. He might have appeared guilty if he tried to head for home under those circumstances. But why didn't he say so if it was true? It would have mitigated immediate suspicion of him if he was aware that there some problem at the Borden house and he was returning out of concern.

Morse did provide an immediate possibility as the culprit, but Lizzie would have needed to be aware of Morse's plans to visit and return for lunch. There was little opportunity to know that because Lizzie seemed to avoid Morse during his visit. She could have overheard Andrew invite him back for lunch, however. Even if Lizzie was aware of Morse's plans, he would have had an alibi if he visited as he did. I think Lizzie just found herself alone in the house with Abby, then again out of earshot with Bridget for Andrew's murder. She took full advantage of both situations. I think the when, where, and how were spur of the moment decisions, but the concept had been partially thought through.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:10 am

One of the things that makes me believe that Lizzie must have at least entertained the idea of murdering Abby before that day, fantasized about it if you want to express it that way, is the fact that the murder weapon was never found. Even if she flew into a rage that day and killed her unexpectedly, she might have fantasized about it more than once and had some of the details roughed out.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:04 am

A partial quote of DJ:

One of his strangest actions, to me, is found in the police reports, wherein he provides his statement, then-- unprompted-- launches into a theory about how the murders were committed, relative to an unsolved case!

Is that the story he tells about how he would have used chloroform? That always struck me as strange.

Also, remember Morse was around the yard the rest of Thursday, seemingly trying to plant the seed in another's (Holmes) mind that the cellar door had been *open.*

We can't tell if that was to save himself from suspicion or to save Lizzie- sort of an awkward damage-control- that implies there was an outsider. There were many questions and answers upon this very subject of that cellar door, probably because of this.

DJ · Post by DJ » Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:18 pm

Kat,
I'm referring to Fleet's report, Aug. 4th, in which Morse asks if Fleet believes the murderer could have been concealed in the house overnight. (A tad Freudian?) Also, Morse brings up the "Nathan" case, which is unsolved after more than two decades (prescient, no?).
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Yes, he's doing damage control, and that's why I believe he was sent down in the first place, at the request of Miss Emma. I believe he was PREPARED to do damage control. One ought to be in shock (and grief). But, Morse has a theory, and he's even referencing an old case, which was conveniently unsolved. The message he appears to be sending the constabulary: "Oh, don't bother with anyone on the premises. The murderer was an intruder, and you'll probably never solve this case."
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Someone mentioned that, if Morse were involved, he ought to have gone straight back to Davis's, that he shouldn't have stuck around till the news of the murders brought forth the hordes. It seems to me that would have made him look even MORE guilty. After all, the police are going to discover, quickly enough, that Morse was there that a.m., for breakfast. They're going to seek him out and question him in any event.
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Well, if Morse didn't have prior knowledge-- either he did or he didn't--
I'll hand this to him: He's cool, calm, and collected-- certainly highly organized in his thoughts-- right after he learns of the murders.
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Yes, Kat-- Morse says the cellar door was open, when he just should have said that he didn't know, or notice. Personally, I think he went back to the pear tree upon returning, to check or to leave it open if it were unlocked.
It certainly would have helped Lizzie's cause if many witnesses had spotted the cellar door open.
She must have had a hell of a lot of evidence stashed in that cellar, and didn't want people's attention called to it, didn't want people tromping through and discovering things, although they did, of course. But, who knows how much was missed?
Again, it really would have helped her cause to have had another entrance/exit open to possibility.

DJ · Post by DJ » Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:49 pm

Just looked up the Nathan case-- sensational, bludgeoning murder of wealthy Benjamin Nathan in Manhattan, July 1870.
One of his sons was the primary suspect!
It's almost a template for the Borden case. Wonder whether Lizzie was familiar with this case?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:56 am

It's my understanding that the Nathan case came up in the papers right about this time- a son died- one who was under suspicion? It was something sort of current in the news and that has been given as a reason for Morse, or anyone who reads the papers, to make such a connection.
But yea, pointing that out was done by Morse.

He stays in the yard all day, possibly listening to people's opinions, rather than inside comforting his niece Lizzie. He might have been more useful to the surviving family as a purveyor of rumors or scuttlebutt by lingering outside. And maybe trying to start his own rumors.

But he only tells Holmes about the cellar door, I believe. And I don't know that Holmes told anyone right away. That was a dead end. It's odd that altho Holmes was a defender of Lizzie he didn't seem to catch on to what Morse was trying to do- he might have helped with that speculation.

Here is what I find in the Prelim from Morse. I can't tell if Morse mentioned the cellar door to Holmes on Thursday.
It was brought up again when he was "recalled" and I will post that too.

Page 266
RE CROSS EXAMINATION.

Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) Allow me to recall to you; didn’t you tell Mr. Charles J. Holmes the first time he came to the house there that you thought this cellar door was open?

(Mr. Knowlton.) I object to the question. What consequence is it whether he told Mr. Holmes or not?

(After a discussion the objection was withdrawn.)

Q. Do you recollect whether the first time Mr. Charles Holmes came there, you told him you thought the cellar door was open?
A. I could not say.

Q. You do not recollect? Do you remember having talked with Mr. Holmes about the matter at all?
A. Yes I think I have talked with him.

Q. This gentleman here?
A. Yes sir.

Q. Did he ask you about various things that you saw?
A. We have had conversation.

Q. When was that talk, do you know?
A. I could not tell.

Q. Was not Mr. Holmes up there Thursday night with his wife?
A. I think he was there; I do not think I saw him Thursday night.

Q. Do you remember when he was up there again?
A. I do not. I saw him some night, I cant tell what night it was.

Q. Do not you remember Mr. Holmes asking you to take him out around the house and show him, and asking about the cellar door, and your pointing it out to him, and taking him out there, and showing him where the cellar door was?
A. I do not recollect anything about it.
.............

Page 268
Mr. Morse recalled.

Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) You were asked the other day when you were on the stand with regard to whether you had informed any person about seeing the cellar door open, and you were asked by me whether you had informed Mr. Holmes or not, and you remember of course what reply you made to the questions; I now want to ask you if you have thought the matter over since?
A. I have.

Q. Do you desire to make any change in your testimony with regard to that?
A. Yes sir.

Q. State what it is.
A. I met Mr. Holmes and his wife down in front----

Q. (By Mr. Knowlton.) What person did you mention it to?
A. Mr. Holmes.

Q. Where and when did you mention it to him?
A. I think at the house after we got through.

Q. Did you meet him at the house?
A. I met him first down in front of the city hall.

Q. Did you walk up with him to the house?
A. Yes sir.

Q. After you got to the house what did you do?
A. Went into the house and showed him over it.

Q. Did you go outside afterwards with him?
A. Yes sir.

Page 269

Q. What did you do outside?
A. Went to the barn.

Q. Did you go into that with him?
A. Yes sir.

Q. Now at what time was it during those proceedings that you told him about the cellar door being open?
A. I think it was after we went out of the house, after being in; I think it was.

Q. While you were going out to the barn?
A. Yes sir, I think it was.

Q. Was that the day of the murder?
A. No sir.

Q. What day was it?
A. I could not tell you; it was after the murder; I do not know but several days after.

Q. What did you do, if anything, at the time you told him about this cellar door? I mean as to whether you pointed it out, or anything of that kind?

(Mr. Knowlton.) It seems to me it is entirely immaterial. He told you he had not told anybody, now he says he has.

(Court.) If you deem it as all material, you may ask the question.

Q. Whether at that time you pointed out the cellar door to him that you said was open?
A. I do not know as I pointed it out, I told him I thought the cellar door was open.

Q. As to whether you pointed the door out to him at the time you told him?
A. I think I did.

--That is the end of Morse's testimony in the Preliminary Hearing. I don't find Holmes being questioned on the cellar door/Morse story in his trial testimony.
--Here is what Morse supposedly told the newspapers as conjecture as to what he himself would have done if he had planned the killings. Note the date is soon after the trial verdict.

"Uncle John Morse Talks," New Bedford Evening Journal, Friday, June 23, 1893: 3.

Uncle Morse offered his theory to a journalist two days after the trial. "I would give $2,000 to know who committed those murders ... My idea is that he went into that house for the purpose of killing Mr. Borden, but not finding Mr. Borden in, he went upstairs in the front chamber to wait and watch for him. While in there, I think Mrs. Borden came in ___?___ after making the bed, and he was forced to kill her ... as not to be found out, with that hatchet about his person." (Morse made no mention of Mr. Borden's murder.)

"Now they say that Lizzie Borden did that and I [John Morse] planned it all out. If I'd been planning it, is it likely I'd have planned in that way? Wouldn't it have been easier to have smothered them with chloroform in the night and in the morning said they had committed suicide?"--Rebello, Lizzie Borden Past & Present Al-Zach Press, Fall River, MA., 1999, pages 135-6.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:38 am

Morse stated that he "thought" the cellar door was open. He does not state that he found the cellar door open. This may well indicate his belief, or his wish to portray a belief, in Lizzie's innocence. If Morse found the concept of an intruder using the back door to escape beyond belief, then, still assuming an intruder, the cellar door had to be open. The front door was triple locked from the inside, anyone leaving could not do that from outside. The only other door to the house was in the cellar, so it must have been open to allow an escape. It's either that, or he would have to believe Lizzie and/or Bridget committed the murders.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:56 am

Len Rebello wrote the front page article in the April 2001 issue of the now defunct Lizzie Borden Quarterly on the Nathan case. The article cites many similarities between the two cases.

The final paragraph of that article reads:

"John Morse's recollection of the Nathan murder during John Fleet's interview may have been triggered when he read or heard of Washington Nathan's death nine days before the Bordens were murdered. Local newspapers reported Washington Nathan's death and alleged involvement in the murder of his father in 1870. His refreshed flashbacks of the Nathan murder would have recalled that a wealthy man was murdered with an iron bar in a fashionable neighborhood in the middle of the night. Four people in the mansion that evening never heard anything. The victim's son was suspected of the murder and the crime was never solved. Perhaps John Morse knew that Lizzie, like Washington Nathan, would eventually be suspected, questioned and released, but never would there be a trial."

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:56 am

Morse's actions and conversations immediately after the murders might be explained as someone rationalizing himself out of the gut instinct that his niece committed the murders. He, along with Abby's sister, may have been the individuals best informed of difficulties within the Borden household over a span of time. He knew Lizzie as well as anyone, and better than most. He had first hand dealings with Lizzie rather than hearsay from Abby. His conversations with others about the murders might have been a way to plant the seed of doubt in their minds, or he might have been looking for reinforcement for his rationalization.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:32 am

There are two cellar doors, an interior and an exterior, so that both would have had to be opened for a killer to use that as his escape route.

If Morse didn't show Holmes the door until after they left the house I assume he was talking about the exterior door. I can't get a clear enough enlargement of the door to see the lock details but I assume it could only be locked from the outside.

Cunningham, the newspaper dealer, one of the first persons to arrive on the scene, testified at the trial (p425)

"Q. Where did you then go?
A. Round the back part of the house.
Q. What did you do at the back part of the house?
A. Looked round the back part of the yard.
Q. Did you see anything?
A. Did not, no, sir.
Q. Did you do anything else?
A. In the back part of the house?
Q. Yes, what did you do?
A. Tried the cellar door.
Q. How was it?
A. It was locked."

From this photo of the interior door it appears that it had only a bolt on the inside and therefore could only be re-locked when in the cellar. Officer Allen testified at the trial (p437+) that the door was bolted:

"Q. My question is intended to refer---did you take any notice of the door that led from the cellar out into the yard?
A. Yes, sir. It was bolted inside.
Q. The door that led from the cellar out into the yard?
A. Yes, sir."

So if Cunningham and Allen are correct both cellar doors were locked.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:49 am

I have to wonder about that exterior door, Harry. What would be the purpose of an exterior door lock only usable from the outside? It seems a lock usable from the inside, or from either side would serve the purpose. A keyed lock would allow the use of the stairs as a shed for tools or whatever, but they are generally two-sided.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:02 am

Yooper, you may very well be right in the exterior door lock being able to be locked from either side. I spoke (or typed

) too quickly.

This is about the best I can do for the exterior door. There is some sort of black mark several inches above the knob but I can't tell if it's just an imperfection in the photo or a ???

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:44 am

Coincidental this should come up as I spent about an hour at the house Friday shooting all the doors inside and out. I zoomed in hard on the black spot and darkened it, Harry, and it is very round -sure looks like a round deadbolt lock to me above that doorknob which would have needed a key to use from the outside. Then a deadbolt lock could also have been turned from the inside of the door with the little twist knob.