Sofa? What sofa?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:42 pm

At the Prelimary Hearing, Mrs. Churchill is asked on page 288 about what she observed regarding Lizzie on that Fatal Fourth.

She is asked: "Did you see her lying down upon the sofa?"

A: "Sofa? The couch, I should say it was a lounge or couch."

What is the difference, or would have been back then, in a 'sofa', 'couch' and 'lounge'?

Isn't Andrew's place of death called a horsehair 'sofa'? I don't have any idea of the piece of furniture Lizzie was reclining on that morning downstairs.

I didn't know there is/was a difference between a sofa and a couch. When I hear 'lounge', I think of a chaise lounge. Was 'lounge' used for another type of furniture besides the chaise?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:43 pm

Sometimes a day bed was called a lounge. A settee was a very short little sofa, not too plushy for longtime sitting, usually only big enough for 2. Couch and sofa, or davenport were pretty much interchangeable. I looked all this up in old catalogues.

kssunflower · Post by **kssunflower** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:18 pm

Just curious - was a daybed also known as a fainting sofa?

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:38 pm

Now I'm curious, what's a fainting sofa??

kssunflower · Post by **kssunflower** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:04 pm

Some Victorian era homes had fainting rooms and sofas. Typically, I think they had only one arm. This was when the corset was everyday wear, and women needed a place to rest as a result of feeling faint, thanks to those corsets. I once toured the home of a wealthy family in Independence, Mo. I believe it was circa 1860's. There was such a room, complete with two sofas.

joe1956 · Post by **joe1956** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:34 pm

There is a fainting sofa in Lizzie's bedroom at the Lizzie B&B. It is one of the most comfortable places to sit in the house. On August 4, 1892 there was a fainting located in the dining room. Lizzie sat there after being taken out of the kitchen.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:38 am

Browsing the primary documents I found they use the words lounge, sofa and couch interchangeably. I went to Dictionary.com and looked up the definitions.

Lounge - "a sofa for reclining, sometimes backless, having a headrest at one end."

Sofa - "a long, upholstered couch with a back and two arms or raised ends."

Couch - 'a piece of furniture for seating from two to four people, typically in the form of a bench with a back, sometimes having an armrest at one or each end, and partly or wholly upholstered and often fitted with springs, tailored cushions, skirts, etc.; sofa."

Assuming these same definitions applied in 1892 its obvious that Andrew was on a sofa or couch. However, throughout the trial it is very often referred to as a lounge. There are several times where the person testifying about the sitting room says lounge and the answer is corrected to sofa.

There are no photos of the pieces in the dining room and Lizzie's room but they are almost always referred to as lounges.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:27 pm

Its easy to see where the mistake was made to call the sofa Andrew was reclining on a lounge. I found a site that has some good info on sofas, settees, etc.

http://www.linkroll.com/Furniture-Home- ... -Your.html

And, if it comes through okay, heres a photo of a lounge for Sherry:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:11 am

Here is what Agatha Christie has to say about "the sofa or couch" in Victorian Times:
(BTW: She was born in 1890, and giving insight into her mother's and grandmother's generation.)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:12 am

Duplicate post

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:48 am

Oh, Susan. Thank you for the photo of the lounge! "Forum Sweetheart", I'm tellin' you.

I love those old chaise lounges - or new repros. I splurged a couple years ago and bought one. It was a reproduction. I didn't want an antique one. I figured I'd have to be too careful with it and, well, you know ... sometimes I'm not so careful ...

Ennyway, I got it in maroon, and it has the fringe on the bottom. It's not terribly long, tho. But it's pretty. Then I had to have a Tiffany-style floor lamp.

Thanks for the definitions, Harry.

I don't know what Mrs. Churchill was being so particular about in the difference between a sofa and a couch. Maybe she was using an older-fashioned definition. Like, sometimes I'll use "ice box" for fridge, because my parents really had an ice box as kids and they used that term in our household.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:21 pm

Sometimes the use is geographical for different items. Midwesterners would use "davenport" to mean a sofa. In England a livingroom is called a "lounge" and a sofa is also called either a couch or a lounge. Then you get into another similar piece of furniture called a divan- which also looks a lot like day bed-more for lounging than sitting- and of course the settee with a back to it on which you had to sit up straight because it was so uncomfortable and usually held only two people. Then there was the serpentine or tete-a-tete which held two people, the serpentine was curved like a snake and the two people sat back to back on it. The Recamier was a sort of daybed or chaise lounge or fainting couch (all three will fit) which got its name from Madame Recamier who was forever painted on one of these pieces of furniture. Ah, those wonderful Victorians had a piece of furniture for everything and usually several names to go with it.

Empire Day Bed- this one has two arms, many had none. I bet the one in the Borden diningroom had none as that space is so small in the corner

Serpentine or tete-a-tete (head to head)

Madame Recamier on her daybed or recamier

Fainting couch listed as a Recamier with a Renaissance Revival touch in walnut

Victorian Eastlake settee

Familiar fainting couch with more of a Rococo shape

kssunflower · Post by **kssunflower** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:35 pm

Shelley, I recall seeing a tete-a-tete in the Independence home I mentioned, but the tour guide referred to it as a courting sofa.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:59 pm

Those pictures were really neat, I've never seen anything like that before. thanks for posting.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:16 pm

You're welcome, Sherry. Thanks for all the additional pics, Shelley, love the two fainting couches!

I know we discussed it in the past, but I don't think we ever came to a conclusion as to why there was a lounge in the Borden's dining room? To me it seems like the least likely room one would want to lounge in or nap, or curl up with a good book.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:57 pm

Well, I must say my Victorian Granny had JUST such a daybed in her diningroom and so did my great Aunt Viola Mae. Aunt Viola would always sneak 40 winks downstairs on that daybed, "I am NOT sleeping, Harley, I am just RESTING my eyes!". This is still a family joke because Auntie would be SNORING! My Granddaddy would plop down on the diningroom daybed when he came in from foxhunting or before the noonday meal, which was, by the way called DINNER, and wait for my Granny to tweak the last little things in place on the table. He was born in 1892. Daybeds were of course for intimate family members to flop about on because nobody visiting or a guest in the house would dream of flopping down anywhere in wanton abandon anywhere but in bed upstairs. Corsets prevented much casual lounging in a chair but from experience I can tell you that when wearing a corset, a daybed is divine for reclining in a half-raised position. Daybeds were also a boon to mothers for little ones to cozy up upon in the warm diningroom which was always near the kitchen. The daybeds of my youth never had arms, but were low and scattered with inviting pillows. My grandmother never stopped working as long as there was daylight and only if she were really ill would she consent to prop herself up on the daybed and give directions on how to run the house and meals that day. Today diningrooms are all but forgotten except for Thanksgiving dinner, and families eat on the run, out of their hands going out the door and in front of the television. No need for daybeds. We scarcely rest enough in our own beds. Mores the pity. And they call this "progress".

Yes, "courting couches" is about right. Courting couples could get their heads close together but nothing ELSE on a tete-a-tete or serpentine, therefore they were MOST desirable for parlors in the minds of Victorian Mammas and Pappas.