Andrew's routine

[Allen]

I included the testimony of all the doctors who were privy to the information concerning body temperature and coagulation of blood to show they were all in agreement. It was also addressing the theory that Abby possibly died first that was proposed earlier. . Even if it was at 2pm that day if they had died closer together, or Abby had died first, she should've been feeling "warm" as well. Especially given that Abby was bigger in body size than Andrew. Yet Andrew's body still showed warmth, and Abby's was much cooler. I've checked several sites to get information on algor mortis, or how body temperature can aid in determining time of death. There are many variables which can affect the rate that a body begins to cool after death, body weight being one of them. In most cases the variables would still be in favor of Abby losing body temperature more slowly. Here is an article which includes information on determing times of death. The methods used can only approximate times of death, and cannot pinpoint an exact time.

http://www.writersdigest.com/article/forensics-excerpt/

I'm only getting sporadic use of the computer myself lately, as I'm trying to get moved into a new place. It's about 45 minutes from where I am now living, but in trying to get things worked out it might as well be four hours it seems sometimes. I'm moving out of West Virginia for the first time in my life. Hopefully it will be an adventure. But I am coming in late on some of these topics and playing catch up sometimes. So I apologize for any confusion.

[Kat]

I'm very glad of your response. The earlier bit didn't seem like you- you are always so careful- the context confused me. You did help me on the tack of finding the bit I was looking for, as well. Thanks for also being candid about your circumstances. And yes you were right anyway- and that is the thing that matters!

[Cherish]

Hi everyone,

Kat, I've read Lizzie Didn't Do It, Crime Library, and I'm not reading Lizzie Borden by Arnold R. Brown.

In all do respect, Andrew was a hard man that loved his money. I believe he would of gone out anyway that day of the murders, whether or not Lizzie gave him a letter to mail, because he wanted to check on his banks/accounts. He went to 3 banks that morning, all were routine. He met Jonathan Clegg about the building the was going to rent, and Andrew spoke with the 2 carpenters renovating Mr. Clegg's soon-to-be office. He then went home.

Please remember that it's well-known that Andrew meets with clients/employees in his home at 11:00 AM, if there is any business dealings. He had a small white box with him that no one has been able to determine what was in that box. Apparently, what is known about that box is that he removed it from his depository at one of the banks, and he had a meeting with someone in his home at 11:00 AM that morning. Could the box had been something for that person he was to meet with, and he took it with him after he killed Andrew and Abby?

Also, Lizzie's letter to Emma was simply to tell her that she will join her and the friends that she was visting on Monday, as she (Lizzie) at a committee meeting at her church on sunday in which she planned to attend.

[Cherish]

Hi everyone,

Kat, I've read Lizzie Didn't Do It, Crime Library, and I'm now reading Lizzie Borden by Arnold R. Brown.

In all do respect, Andrew was a hard man that loved his money. I believe he would of gone out anyway that day of the murders, whether or not Lizzie gave him a letter to mail, because he wanted to check on his banks/accounts. He went to 3 banks that morning, all were routine. He met Jonathan Clegg about the building the was going to rent, and Andrew spoke with the 2 carpenters renovating Mr. Clegg's soon-to-be office. He then went home.

Please remember that it's well-known that Andrew meets with clients/employees in his home at 11:00 AM, if there is any business dealings. He had a small white box with him that no one has been able to determine what was in that box. Apparently, what is known about that box is that he removed it from his depository at one of the banks, and he had a meeting with someone in his home at 11:00 AM that morning. Could the box had been something for that person he was to meet with, and he took it with him after he killed Andrew and Abby?

Also, Lizzie's letter to Emma was simply to tell her that she will join her and the friends that she was visting on Monday, as she (Lizzie) at a committee meeting at her church on sunday in which she planned to attend.

[kssunflower]

Just curious how it was known he definitely had an 11 am meeting at home on Aug 4? And Abby had probably been dead at least an hour and a half prior to that. Wouldn't Bridget or Lizzie have been aware of a visitor then? It is an interesting possibility.

[SallyG]

Hi everyone,

Kat, I've read Lizzie Didn't Do It, Crime Library, and I'm now reading Lizzie Borden by Arnold R. Brown.

In all do respect, Andrew was a hard man that loved his money. I believe he would of gone out anyway that day of the murders, whether or not Lizzie gave him a letter to mail, because he wanted to check on his banks/accounts. He went to 3 banks that morning, all were routine. He met Jonathan Clegg about the building the was going to rent, and Andrew spoke with the 2 carpenters renovating Mr. Clegg's soon-to-be office. He then went home.

Please remember that it's well-known that Andrew meets with clients/employees in his home at 11:00 AM, if there is any business dealings. He had a small white box with him that no one has been able to determine what was in that box. Apparently, what is known about that box is that he removed it from his depository at one of the banks, and he had a meeting with someone in his home at 11:00 AM that morning. Could the box had been something for that person he was to meet with, and he took it with him after he killed Andrew and Abby?

Also, Lizzie's letter to Emma was simply to tell her that she will join her and the friends that she was visting on Monday, as she (Lizzie) at a committee meeting at her church on sunday in which she planned to attend.

Hopefully you've read the source documents on this site before making any firm decision on the innocence or guilt of Lizzie.

That's the first I've ever heard that Andrew removed a small white box from a safe deposit box and had it with him...

[JoAnne]

Cherish,
You speak with such certainty about an August 4th 11:00 A.M. appointment and Adrew withdrawing a white box from a safety deposit box; yet, I have spent 12 or 13 years at least involved with the Lizzie Borden Case and have never heard that "fact". Please tell me your source.

[Kat]

Well, Lizzie said at the inquest :
Q. What was the next thing that happened after you got down?
A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron.

Basically we only know, thru Lizzie, that Andrew was thinking of not going to the post office Thursday morning. Then he does go and mails Lizzie's letter. She is adamant that the letter was mailed because she claims it was "sent back to this post office." [I. 57(14)]

We don't ever find out what was in the letter.
Also, Emma was in Fairhaven, and Lizzie was supposed to go to Marion, so I don't quite understand the reference to:

Also, Lizzie's letter to Emma was simply to tell her that she will join her and the friends that she was visting...

--Cherish, partial.

Andrew was seen with a small white package or box thing, but we don't know where he got it and we don't know what was in it, nor do we know what happened to it. For all we know he burned the thing in the stove.

As for Clegg, it was my impression that Andrew was ducking him Thursday, as he had already seen Clegg a few times that week- and was passing on the far side of the street while Clegg was actually keeping an eye out for Andrew and called him over.

The others are right in that we have no source for any meeting around 11 am at the Borden home Thursday morning.

I noticed one post of Cherish says "...and I'm not reading Lizzie Borden by Arnold R. Brown."
But the second one, which appears to be otherwise the same, says: "...and I'm now reading Lizzie Borden by Arnold R. Brown.

So I assume the *double post* was to correct that one word? So you are now reading Arnold Brown? Maybe these couple of things other members have brought up are from Brown or maybe Masterton?

[Shelley]

Didn't Andrew go into the diningroom when he came home to read something he had in his hand before going up to his room? I always took it that he put whatever it was that was white in his hand as being mail of some kind and he left it upstairs in the room with the safe and desk in it-Abby's dressing room . Whatever it was apparently had little significance to the police.

[Kat]

All I know is that he seemed to have a *package.*
If it went into the safe, we don't know that either. We don't know what was found in the safe.
Since each witness to Andrew's arrival at his front door is asked a question about what he had in his hand, I personally can't determine that to be "apparently"... "little significance to the police."

Mrs. Kelley at the Prelim, 209(91):
Q. Did he have anything in his hand at that time?
A. I think he had a small white package.

~~~~~~

Bridget at the Prelim 78-79(198):
Q. She went in there?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. And asked him if there was any mail?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. He said none for her?
A. I do not know what he said; they were talking.

Q. Did he have anything in his hand?
A. When I saw him. I did not see him then.

Q. When he came in, did he have anything in his hand?
A. A parcel.

Q. A white parcel?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Any key or brass lock in his hand?
A. I did not notice it.

Q. Did one hand seem to be free, and the other to have a package in it?
A. I did not notice, only that he had a little package.

Q. He sat down in the dining room?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. What passed between them then?
A. I heard Miss Lizzie tell him about a note, that the mother had a note, and had gone out, very slowly. They were talking very slowly, and were talking to themselves.

[Cherish]

Cherish,
You speak with such certainty about an August 4th 11:00 A.M. appointment and Adrew withdrawing a white box from a safety deposit box; yet, I have spent 12 or 13 years at least involved with the Lizzie Borden Case and have never heard that "fact". Please tell me your source.

I believe it was William Masterton's book that speaks of his usual morning meetings. I no longer have the book, as I lent it to some coworkers and it has now vanished. Masterton had obtained this information somehow. About the small package, I had heard that from time to time, and Arnold Brown's book reveals this as well. I guess it's not certain that he had a package, or that he picked it up from a safe deposit box, but it's something that has been documented and mentioned in the trial from Ms. Kelly, I think?

[Cherish]

Kat,

Yes the "not" was a typo and it was suppose to be "now".

Regarding the 11:00 AM meeting, no...I don't think it's known or made a fact that he was meeting someone, but he was usually home at that time and made it known to his employees and such that he is always home at this time and he will conduct business and meetings during this time. I believe it was Masterton who found this out.

[Cherish]

Didn't Andrew go into the diningroom when he came home to read something he had in his hand before going up to his room? I always took it that he put whatever it was that was white in his hand as being mail of some kind and he left it upstairs in the room with the safe and desk in it-Abby's dressing room . Whatever it was apparently had little significance to the police.

What bugs me is if Andrew did indeed go upstairs, if Abby had already been killed, why didn't he see her?

[Kat]

Have you visited the house yet, Cherish?
It's a must see for any Borden enthusiast!

As for Andrew going upstairs, it's cool you say "if" because of course we know Lizzie said he did not.

Anyway, the house was sort of divided between the 2 parts of the family. The girls lived in the front part of the second floor and used the front stairs. The elder Bordens had their bedroom and spare room on the second floor up the back stairway. So *if* Andrew went upstairs (and of course would come down again) he would have gone up the back stairs and Abbie was found dead up the front stairs, in the front guest room.

[Susan]

I thought it might be helpful to post a pic of the floorplan of the second floor of the Borden house for Cherish.

[Kat]

Where is that from, may I ask?

[Susan]

Sorry, meant to put it on there and didn't. Pic from the Lizzie Borden Virtual Museum and Library site.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Photos.htm

[Kat]

Thanks! I don't recognize it.

[Cherish]

Thank you, Susan! I wasn't thinking about the fact that he automatically would of gone up the backstairs, as that was his routine.

Kat, I have not stayed at the Borden Inn, but I want to badly!!! But I live in Georgia and I'm afraid of flying. Yep, I'm afraid of flying but not afraid to stay at that Inn. I've heard about possible hauntings there. But I really want to visit it someday.

[Susan]

You're welcome, Cherish. I thought it would help along with Kat's explanation to see an actual diagram of how the house was laid out. I haven't visited the B&B yet myself and look forward to the day that I do.

[Nadzieja]

I was checking out the floor plan & I have a question. Lizzie's room & Mr. & Mrs. Borden's room were back to back. Is that a fireplace being in the middle? Also I finished Vol 1 Issue 3 of The Hatchet and there is an article called The Borden House: Frame by Frame by Kat. The picture on page 44 shows a mantle behind the bed. Was that covered up or is it still there? I've seen that room & I truly don't remember seeing it.

[Kat]

That photo is of the fireplace behind the bed in the guest room- the room Abbie was murdered in. It's painted black.

And yes there was a fireplace behind where the elder Borden's bed head is now.
Inside the closet in that room is a trap door in the wall and there's a very strange-looking space in there.
That fireplace corresponds with where the stove is now in the kitchen on the ground floor and backs onto the one in the sitting room.

Guest Room

[Kat]

Here is the weird trap door that is on the wall inside Andrew's bedroom closet. It extends behind where the bed head is. Legend had it that Sharky Mark, a later resident, was a bookie and he would throw his betting slips back there if there was word of an impending raid and they would fall down into the fire, either in the kitchen, or cellar. I had heard *the cellar* but I can't figure out how.
On the other side of those slats would be Lizzie's bedroom- well, Emma's bedroom until around 1890...

[Yooper]

Maybe the thing to keep in mind is that the house was designed and built as flats. The original upstairs and downstairs floor plans were almost identical. The kitchen/back bedroom would have had the back side of a fireplace, which opened on the sitting room/Lizzie's room, on the west wall of the kitchens. The chimney structure is large and two flues are indicated. The wood cook stoves would have vented into the chimney from the back side. The parlor/guest room had a fireplace on the east wall of the parlors.

[Nadzieja]

Kat, Thank you so much for pictures. Wow that is a wierd space with the trap door. Was that original to the house or was it made by the bookie? If it was I can't imagine what it's original purpose was suppose to be.

[Kat]

It has a name: Like a *beehive* stove, or beehive-something- or-other, I think.. But when you touch it is feels like a rounded ball of cold, uneven cement.

And yes, Yooper is correct- if you look at each floor's plans you will find where the fireplaces backed up to each other in certain rooms, even tho most were closed off (probably when the radiators were installed?).

[Nadzieja]

I've seen beehive ovens but the only ones I have seen are made out of bricks.