Why didn't Lizzie run screaming from the house?

joe1956 · Post by **joe1956** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:31 pm

I have always found it quite odd that Lizzie went to the back stairs and called up for Bridget upon the discovery of her mutilated father on the sofa. Her actions seem to be a rather calm reaction to a horrifying scene. If it had been me, I would have run right out that front door in a panic screaming bloody murder to all on the street. I know that people do not react to shocking situations in the way you think they would do so. Some questions. How did Lizzie know she was not next if she stayed in that house? How did Lizzie know that Bridget was not dead upstairs? Having been in the house many times, and seeing the location of that front door, how could anyone in Lizzie situation not make a straight line for it? What would you do in this situation?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:22 pm

Another question, since Lizzie knew Bridget was alive when she hollered up to her, how did Lizzie know Bridget was not responsible for Andrew's death? Why did Lizzie feel safe waiting for Bridget at the bottom of the stairs?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:39 pm

Come to think of it, how did Lizzie know enough to holler UP the stairs for Bridget? All she supposedly knew for sure was that Bridget had gone upstairs just before she went to the barn. She came back in to find her father dead, and the only live person she was aware of in the house was Bridget. She could not possibly know for sure that Bridget was not responsible for Andrew's death, why would she assume that Bridget was upstairs? Why wouldn't she assume Bridget was somewhere else, since everything at that moment pointed to Bridget being the murderer?

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:39 am

What would your first reaction be if you walked into a room and saw someone chopped to death, bleeding actively? I would immediately look around to see if someone was lurking in the shadows or around the next corner to get me too. The closest way to get out would have been the front door. I would have been hysterical with fear worrying that I would even make those few yards before someone would get me and then, after getting out as fast as possible, running as fast as I could for help, looking over my shoulder the whole time to see if someone was following me. Instead, Lizzie walks through the kitchen, to the back stairs, past the cellar door where anyone could burst through, and stands there calling up for Bridget in a loud voice. Wouldn't it have crossed her mind that the murderer would hear her and come after her too? And then, instead of going WITH Brdget to get them BOTH out of harm's way, she stands there by herself waiting patiently for someone to come back. That is NOT the way an innocent person would behave.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:20 pm

Angel, you are brave. I would be too afraid to look around, even a little bit. Andrew was obviously too far gone. Why did Lizzie ask for a doctor, then when he wasn't home, sent Bridget for Alice Russell?

At the Inquest, Knowlton is questioning Lizzie about her first seeing Andrew:

Q: What did you tell Maggie?
A: I told her he was hurt.
Q: When you first told her?
A: I says, "Go for Dr. Bowen as soon as you can. I think father is hurt."
Q: Did you know then that he was dead?
A: No sir.

"Hurt"? What happened to "Maggie, come quick. Someone has just killed Father!" (or words to that effect) To me, 'hurt' means get a doctor; 'killed' means run for the cops.

Why did Lizzie block Bridget's way when Bridget went to peek into the sitting room? I think the killer was still in there, and while Bridget was gone Lizzie gave the murderer time to escape.

I would have ran back out the way I came in, thru the screen door. That front door and its triple locks wouldn't get me out fast enough. And I would know that at least there was nobody between me and the way I came in. So I'd run out and go to the nearest house and tell them what I saw - if I could get it out - and tell them to call the police. Realizing Bridget was still upstairs, if I could I'd stand outdoors and yell for her to get out of the house or ask the neighbor whose house I was at to have someone do it.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:07 pm

I always ask people on tour what they would do when we get to the recreation of Andrew's death and the "discovery" of his body. All the women suggest walking the 10 steps to the front door and opening it and calling out into the busy street for help. There was plenty of it nearby.

By screaming up the stairs for Maggie, she was announcing her presence to the whole house- ringing the dinner bell to any concealed or escaping killer. "Come and get me too!". She also stood in the only unlocked exit all alone in the house after she sent Bridget out, right in the path of any escaping lunatic with the hatchet. . I also wonder about how she was so certain Bridget had not been killed also. Yes, all very peculiar to me too. Personally, I would have been screaming blue murder in the middle of Second Street and dragging some big burly man inside to look at Pappa, while sending someone else out to get the police ASAP.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:10 pm

augusta @ Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:20 pm wrote:Angel, you are brave. I would be too afraid to look around, even a little bit.
.

No- I didn't mean I would go around hunting down someone. I meant I would look around me where I stood to make sure someone wasn't sneaking up on me, and then I would bolt for the nearest door. Believe me- I wouldn't be brave. I would be like one of those cartoon characters who would go from 0 to 60, with my feet never touching the floor, leaving a cloud of dust behind me.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:19 pm

Don't you all think too how particularly weird it was for the family to continue to stay in the murder house that night? Even in those days it would seem to me that the police would want to mark it off limits for everyone, and get the family to stay with friends. What could they possibly have been thinking?

Cheryl · Post by **Cheryl** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:21 pm

These are all great points, and I agree that these actions convey guilt -- much more so than even the calmness, which can also be argued as shock.

What's also bothered me is Lizzie stating that she thought she heard Abby come in. If she were innocent of the crime, I would think she'd run screaming from the house if she heard ANY kind of noise inside the house. Or, if she sensed it WAS Abby, why not run to her and possibly stop her from walking in on the carnage?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:41 pm

That is always chilling, Cheryl, to read Lizzie saying that she thought she heard Abby come in. It sounds like a dead (no pun intended) give-away. It would have sounded less guilty of her to not say anything at all about Abby, other than "I think she had a note..."

Well, in Lizzie's day bodies usually were viewed in their caskets at home. Geez, look what happened right on their dining room table. The house had been searched, at least to the degree of making sure no one was hiding in it, and the cops were standing guard outside. Maybe the police told them to stay in the house?

It's still bizarre that John Morse still slept in the guest room that night. And that he laid in Abby's death spot while he and Mrs. (Mary) Brigham did experiments on which step you could see Abby's body from, if any.
And I agree with Angel, that it still was creepy for any of them to sleep in the house after that.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:31 pm

I always thought maybe Alice could have had Lizzie and Emma stay at her place on Borden St-but then that would have left Uncle John in the house alone to stay with the dead bodies. Without today's funeral home scenario, the home of the deceased was the place to be laid out at the time and of course the family stayed at home for that -it was their duty. Emma, as oldest should have been the one taking care of things as far as arrangements-and for all we know she did.

I believe those partial autopsies done at the house to remove the stomachs and make some examinations were done on undertakers' boards. You can see the caned portion of one under Andrew's body in front of the sofa. Then they would have been laid out on cooling boards and washed and dressed in the diningroom for the layout in the caskets for Saturday morning. I think I read somewhere that the diningroom table was pushed against the north wall and the family closed the two diningroom doors and ate in the kitchen where there was a table between the two south-facing windows.

kssunflower · Post by **kssunflower** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:01 pm

augusta @ Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:20 pm wrote: Why did Lizzie ask for a doctor, then when he wasn't home, sent Bridget for Alice Russell?

I'm just wondering if Lizzie was afraid Bridget might come downstairs before she had a chance to tell her 'father's been killed' and that's why she called to Bridget possibly before finishing her crime scene cleanup. Maybe she knew Dr. Bowen wasn't at home and this would buy her more time?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:54 pm

That's an interesting thought, kssunflower. That could also be why Lizzie stopped Bridget from looking in the sitting room. Maybe the carnage in there would have given Lizzie away.

There was something to clean up, wasn't there? Wasn't that the idea behind the Prince Albert coat and the afghan stuffed under his head?

But it doesn't sound like Lizzie went back in there. It appears as though she spent the time Bridget was gone standing at the screen door.

Shelley, weren't the undertaker boards metal? I'd think wicker would not hold up for that use.

I thought Winward took the bodies to prepare them for burial.

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:33 pm

I think Lizzie's purpose in announcing she thought she'd heard Abby come in was twofold; first, she wanted to get the show on the road and have her found. Secondly, she probably wanted everyone to think that Abby had come in the front door, gone straight up to the guest room, and been accosted by the murder who was hiding up there waiting for her.

I highly doubt that Lizzie knew anything at all about dead bodies, or that it could be determined how long a person had been dead. I'm sure to her, dead was dead. It's not exactly the subject well brought up ladies discussed among themselves.

She probably assumed that the police would decide an intruder had come in, killed Andrew and Abby at the same time, and then left. I don't think Lizzie thought for a moment that her story would be questioned.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:21 pm

It was important that Abby died first, because of the inheritance. One of Lizzie's good friends was Dr. Bowen. And I think I read that she had asked Charles Cook, Andrew's property handler/accountant/financial man, some things on an occasion or two before the murders.

Ad · Post by Ad » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:46 pm

When Lizzie found her father, she had two choices if she had acted normally
1) Scream at the top of her lungs and make a run for it
Or
2) Faint on the spot; Hollywood style
But apparently she wasn’t very good at either

I myself would have made a VERY hasty retreat and I doubt that I would have stopped at the door (either door) long enough to open it as I went through.

The police station was a short distance from her house and a great direction to go in a situation like this; lots of big burly men as you put it Shelly

As for screaming up the stairs; to me it’s very telling.
Lizzie didn’t have enough respect for Bridget to call her by her real name, why would she care if she was dead too. Hired help was easily replaceable.
Besides, Bridget may have done the deed in the first place.

Just the fact that Lizzie, in all reality, did nothing that most people would do in a similar situation, suggests to me something a lot less than innocence.

If people today are a little freaked out about sleeping in the house after 116, soon to be 117 years; don’t you think it odd that everybody except Bridget spent the murder night in the house? Not a chance I would have.

Anyone in town would have taken them in that night and the police still could have secured the house and grounds. Beside it would have made for a cleaner crime scene; although a bit late!

I any event; to discover the very badly beaten body of your father and not respond in fear AND flight tells me that there is a lot more that we do not know about the inner workings of the Borden family and household.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:05 pm

This is the photo of Andrew in front of the sofa, reposing on a caned horizontal contrivance of some sort. It puts me in mind of steamer deckchairs. You can see the caning better in the photo we have at the house, which is much crisper. Cane shows under his left arm and near his head clearly. Caning, incidentally is very strong which is why you still see Victorian chairs with original caning in the seats. If allowed to dry out in an attic, or if stored in certain conditions, yes, it will break. I would bet what Andrew is on probably folded and was a portable "morgue" table for the medical examiner when things had to be done in a hurry on the scene. As far as I have ever learned, Abby did not receive her examination postmortem on the diningroom table, but on a caned stretcher like Andrew.
I never heard that Winward ever removed the bodies from the house. I assume after the sutures were administered to close up the incisions,the bodies were released to Winward by Dolan, they were put on the cooling boards like this Victorian example

cleaned and bathed, and shrouded until they were prepped and dressed for caskets before Saturday morning in the sittingroom. Cooling boards folded up as you can see in the one in the photo above, shown under the extended one. I would imagine the drawer beneath which held ice to keep the torsos chilled may have been zinc lined, it is hard to tell what the folding legs were made of although the one in the photo sure looks like hardwood- as there are lathe turnings on the legs. Oak would have been a good candidate. The cadavers were laid out with heads on the east wall of the diningroom, stretching out with feet to the west. I would imagine, given Abby's weight, and Andrew's height, each corpse had its own cooling board, and the diningroom table was pushed to the side. I know they took their meals in the kitchen, and closed the diningroom doors.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:03 am

Forgive me folks~ I'm way behind reading here- but I've printed you all out and will read every word!

(This goes for all topics since Monday!) Will catch up soon!

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:01 am

augusta @ Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:21 pm wrote:It was important that Abby died first, because of the inheritance. One of Lizzie's good friends was Dr. Bowen. And I think I read that she had asked Charles Cook, Andrew's property handler/accountant/financial man, some things on an occasion or two before the murders.

You're right, Augusta...I forgot about that. Then I guess Lizzie just wanted Abby's body found. If Lizzie had any idea about determining a body's time of death, then she much have research the subject!

Cheryl · Post by **Cheryl** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:08 am

Kssunflower-that's a good point about Lizzie possibly calling Bridget down in haste before "cleaning up". With the small window of time she had to do away with her father, I would assume she'd be somewhat frenzied
and worried that Bridget would come down prematurely. But Augusta, you're right -- a lot supports the fact that Lizzie did indeed spend a good deal of time waiting at the side door...which would contradict the idea of her cleaning up inside.

Also, Lubinsky's testimony has Lizzie walking VERY SLOWLY from the barn
during this time. That doesn't support my theory that she was too frantic. Maybe she was hoping that Bridget WOULD come down and be the one to find the father while she was outside. Perhaps she just got impatient?

Could she have done all her cleanup in the barn? Was there a mirror there?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:02 pm

I think Lizzie commented to a policeman that she did not think Bridget was guilty. So, when she yelled up the stairs to her, it probably did not enter her mind that maybe Bridget was the killer.

I guess Lizzie could have supposed that the killer was gone, because she said the screen door was open (I always took this as flying open, not just closed). But if I came in and saw Andrew, my father, like that I don't think I would even remember, 'Oh yes, I have nothing to fear. The killer can't be in here because the back door was open. What a goose I am!'

One thing that always bothered me, is that Lizzie could have had blood on her and it would have been normal. For her to rush up to her father and see what was going on would also be pretty normal to do, I think. But I think she was asked and she was very adamant about not having gone up to his body. She must have been entirely sure she had no blood on her at all.

That photo of Andrew! He has no face! It's incredible. Thank you for posting it, Shelley. It does look like wood caning, but I still think it was metal. With it having blood running thru it, which is the purpose of the holes I think, metal would have been a much better material for it to be made from. The piece around his shoulder looks like metal. And a metal board could have been made to be folded. Remember the thing that held his head that's visible in a photo? That was surely metal, and I think it screwed on to the board?

I think they could have embalmed Andrew at Winward's, but I'm thinking no because when the doctors did their "second autopsy" at Oak Grove, there was no mention of embalming fluid affecting the autopsy.

Thanks for the 'cooling board' ad too, Shelley. It's totally interesting.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:45 pm

What I have always wondered along with you Yooper. How did she know enought to yell for Bridget?

How did she know that Bridget also wasn't dead, too? How did she know Bridget was alive?

As Joe 1956 stated, "her actions seem after seeing a horrifiying seem rather calm.

Makes me think the way she was the murderer.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:25 am

There are a couple of possible (or potential) misconceptions here and since I've been in "fact-checking" mode for the magazine, I tend to come here and give a few corrections. Please excuse...
I think it would be good to start a thread that deals with common errors, and that way researchers can check that, and ourselves, as well.

The undertaker boards were very wicker-like in the first generation autopsy photographs. I think Shell is right about their composition. I had posted a drawing I made of poor Abbie's head from the originals, and that is caning- or wicker- I'm almost sure.
Also, the bodies were not taken away- they were laid in the dining room until the funeral service.
Also, not on the dining table.

Lizzie said she did not tell anyone she *thought she heard Abbie come in*... of course we have those witnesses who recollect that she did- but just to be clear.

Also, we have discussed quite a bit, about where Morse slept that Thursday night after the murders. There is not full proof, but implied by testimony that he reverted to his old attic room that night.

As to the inheritence, there is a complicated rendering of Commonwealth law on another topic here that was transcribed from the Boston Globe, called "To Whom the Property." I will give the link in the new thread on common mistakes. (Tho that is not so "common" a mistake, because it is pretty convoluted the way it is written

)

Also, didn't Dr. Bowen think at first that Abbie had fainted from fright? (Well, according to Officer Allen, pg. 1, Witness Statements.) If Bowen thought that, then even he did not know, initially, the order of death. I think it's possible Lizzie either did not know, or did not think anyone else would know. (In part agreement with Sally G., from post Oct.29.)

I keep reminding myself that these are not people sophisticated in the way we are now, about murder and police. It doesn't surprise me if a doctor was called first before a policeman. Besides, Dr. Bowen may have been the closest neighbor who was a man, a friend, and could be relied upon in an emergency. A woman would look to a man for guidance- they were raised that way.

I will start the new topic soon and include sources there.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:37 pm

I have to agree, Lizzie's initial reactions seem inconsistent with innocence. They seem to portray someone who knew more than she should have. If we take the perspective that she was upset to the point of being out of control, it should have manifested as a fight or flight reaction. She did neither, she called out the servant! The only conclusion I can draw from that initial reaction was that she was clearly not all that upset, she was in control of herself.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:52 am

Here is the drawing I made last year from the actual first gen photo at the FRHS, Abbie's head with hair- and notice my note on lower left about "wicker."

william · Post by **william** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:12 am

In the autopsy photograph of Andrew in the sitting room, it is apparent that his body is on a caned surface.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:49 pm

HI William!

Thanks, William.

stargazer · Post by **stargazer** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:51 pm

I have always wondered the same thing about Lizzie's calling up to the maid, and not simply running back out. When/if Lizzie killed Abby, she must have been in a rage, even if premeditated. I have known people who can yell, scream, rant, silently attack, and a minute or two later, they are very calm. Not a hair out of place. Actors, and mimes are good at that.

I think when/if she killed her father, she may have done so in a zombie-like state. Physically violent, but maybe numb emotionally. He may have let her down a great deal, in her mind and heart. Resentment, and betrayal can make people very insecure.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:57 pm

I think Lizzie, if she were the killer, had given up on her parents days or weeks earlier so the killing itself was done in a calculating, thinking and calm manner.

I don't know what I would have done if I were Lizzie and found my father bleeding but If I were me I would have told Bridget to go for the cops while I go looking for the killer. If the killer got away I may get the blame for the killings.

-1bigsteve (o:

cfking · Post by **cfking** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:33 pm

In my Opinion, more telling than her behavior immediately following the crime, is the fact that at least her and Emma and Uncle John spent the night at the home the evening of the murders. Not a single one of these peoples seems to fear a murderer will come back.
If someone had supposedly entered your home and murdered your family AND was STILL on the loose-would you want to be in the same place??
Experts-do you know if the police put a guard outside the home? If they did-that could explain their staying.

stargazer · Post by **stargazer** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:36 pm

Uncle John's appearance may have added fuel to the fire. I wonder if Lizzie could have heard the night time conversations downstairs by way of the heat registers ? Everything had to fall into line for the deed to take place. I wonder if the Elder Bordens were prone to rigid routines that drove the daughters crazy ? Imagine being 30, living with older people who never danced, or did anything fun.

KAE · Post by **KAE** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:21 pm

stargazer @ Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:36 pm wrote:Uncle John's appearance may have added fuel to the fire. I wonder if Lizzie could have heard the night time conversations downstairs by way of the heat registers ? Everything had to fall into line for the deed to take place. I wonder if the Elder Bordens were prone to rigid routines that drove the daughters crazy ? Imagine being 30, living with older people who never danced, or did anything fun.

Welcome stargazer! I'm rather new here myself. I'm having a lot of fun. I've been spending a lot of my time reading the source documents and previous postings on the forums (way too much time!).

I believe the Borden house used radiators for heating and didn't have heat registers.

"Everything had to fall into line for the deed to take place" - Great line and so true!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:20 pm

Hello to each of the new members!
Auspicious time to join!

As for a guard around the house Thursday night- the answer is yes. Remember Officer Hyde? He watched the light go down to the cellar that Alice carried fearfully~ and Lizzie visiting the privy and the sink while Alice nearly trembled. Then he saw Lizzie go back down alone! What was that all about?

(There were several policeman stationed outside day and night for a few days.)

cfking · Post by **cfking** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:23 pm

Thanks once again, Kat! You are such a wealth of knowledge. I appreciate your comments and helpfulness. I hope everyone does!
Can you tell me where I can access that information? I've looked everywhere.
It sounds spooky! Lizzie went down again alone?? Hmmmm. Makes one wonder what going ons she had in that cellar. :)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:01 am

You're welcome!
See Witness Statements , page 39, Joseph Hyde
(Aug 4)

partial:

About half past eight in the evening, Miss Russell told me they were going to retire, and would lock the door; and if we wanted anything, we could knock, and they would open the door.

In a little while afterwards, Miss Russell and Miss Lizzie came down into the cellar, Miss Russell carrying a small hand lamp, and Miss Lizzie had something in her hand which I could not, see distinctly. She went over to the sink and emptied something that sounded to me like water, Miss Russell standing some distance back. Then they both went up stairs.

About fifteen minutes after, Miss Lizzie came down the cellar alone, with the small lamp in her hand. She set the lamp on the table, and went over towards the sink again, and stooped; but I could not see what she did there. Then she took up the lamp again, and went up stairs.

August 8th 9 o’clock in the morning, I spoke to Miss Russell about her and Miss Lizzie being in the cellar on the night of the 4th. Miss Russell said Miss Lizzie had the toilet pail. Miss Russell said she offered to carry the pail. Miss Lizzie says “you bring the lamp”; and they went into the cellar. I said to Miss Russell, Miss Lizzie came down into the cellar alone after that time. Miss Russell said that could not be. I said, O, yes she did; it was about ten or fifteen minutes after you and she went up stairs. Miss Russell said that must have been while I was taking my bath.

About fifteen minutes after this conversation, Miss Russell came to me and told me she would like me to come up stairs, she wanted me to see something. She led the way to the southeast bedroom, and pointing to something that lay on the floor under the head of the bed, said “what’s that?” I picked it up. It was a club, about twenty inches long. She said I slept here last night; if that was there last night, I dont see how I missed seeing it. Miss Russell seemed very much excited, and begged me to tell no one but the Marshal. Mrs. Charles Holmes was present at the time.