Probably without Alice's testimony before the grand jury Lizzie may not have ever been indicted. It was only after she revealed the dress burning and previous night's visit that the grand jury acted.
Assuming she was not under any legal threat from the authorities did she do the right thing by revealing her information?
Did Alice Russell do the right thing?
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Harry
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Did Alice Russell do the right thing?
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Angel
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Alice was totally supportive of Lizzie when she first came over after the murders by staying with her overnight in the house and tending to her. I think she may have picked up on something during the time she spent there which may have made her start wondering about Lizzie's involvement. I don't think the dress burning in itself would have been enough to change Alice's loyalty so completely otherwise.
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Nadzieja
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I think Alice picked up on something also. This was probably the only time in her life she was questioned by police, or even had any involvement with anyone who was a crime victim. I think that her conscience bothered her enough that she had to tell the truth. If she didn't it probably would have bothered her the rest of her life.
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kssunflower
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DJ
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I know Alice's conscience was troubling her terribly, but how much more would it have troubled her had Lizzie been found guilty, principally on the dress-burning "evidence," executed by the Commonwealth, then come to find out someone else was the murderer?
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I wonder whether Emma ever specifically asked Alice to keep the info to herself, Alice being a closer friend of Emma than of Lizzie.
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Didn't Lizzie burn the dress the day after the Mayor showed up at No. 92, admitted she was a suspect, and then Lizzie responded, "Then I am ready to go now?"
If it were so danged important that Lizzie burn the dress, I wonder what she would have done had His Honor said, "Then we are ready to take you now."
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I wonder whether Emma ever specifically asked Alice to keep the info to herself, Alice being a closer friend of Emma than of Lizzie.
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Didn't Lizzie burn the dress the day after the Mayor showed up at No. 92, admitted she was a suspect, and then Lizzie responded, "Then I am ready to go now?"
If it were so danged important that Lizzie burn the dress, I wonder what she would have done had His Honor said, "Then we are ready to take you now."
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twinsrwe
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I think Alice knew a lot more about what happened than she testified to. I also think she probably thought it was more than a little odd that Lizzie chose that particular day to burn a dress that had been stained for what, weeks or months before the murders? Not only that, but where was this dress when the authorities did their search? Alice most likely put two and two together which resulted in casting a huge amount of suspicion on Lizzie. Therefore, I don't think she would have been willing to risk perjury just to protect Lizzie.
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Yooper
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I think Alice may have had little choice in spilling the beans about the dress burning. She admitted the incident to the detective hired by Lizzie and Emma, so there was another individual who could come forward with the information, perhaps in spite of Alice. People would be interested in why she had withheld the information if that happened. I don't quite understand why there was little questioning as to why she withheld the information as long as she did. Alice kept her mouth shut through the Inquest and Preliminary, only to bring it up after the Grand Jury had finished.
It may have been the best decision Alice could make for Alice, whether we chalk it up to a moral or an intellectual decision.
It may have been the best decision Alice could make for Alice, whether we chalk it up to a moral or an intellectual decision.
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Harry
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Alice Russell told Knowlton her information on Thursday, December 1, 1892. The information was presented to the grand jury and the indictments were issued December 2.
This information is contained in a letter from Knowlton to Pillsbury dated December 3 and is in the Knowlton papers. (HK114, page 118)
She had consulted with a lawyer about her grand jury testimony. This is from Rebello, p115:
"... Although she knew the things to which she testified on the stand she did not disclose them until she had a lawyer to learn whether there was not some way she could avoid telling the truths that have appeared. It is stated here on good authority tonight that she consulted Lawyer [Marcus G. B.] Swift concerning her rights and duties in the matter, before appearing a second time before the grand jury to tell all she knew. ..."
This information is contained in a letter from Knowlton to Pillsbury dated December 3 and is in the Knowlton papers. (HK114, page 118)
She had consulted with a lawyer about her grand jury testimony. This is from Rebello, p115:
"... Although she knew the things to which she testified on the stand she did not disclose them until she had a lawyer to learn whether there was not some way she could avoid telling the truths that have appeared. It is stated here on good authority tonight that she consulted Lawyer [Marcus G. B.] Swift concerning her rights and duties in the matter, before appearing a second time before the grand jury to tell all she knew. ..."
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DJ
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That is a good point, Yooper, about the Pinkerton man knowing. It wasn't just a secret among Alice, Lizzie, and Emma. Of course, he was under the employ of the Misses Borden at the time, but there's nothing to say he wouldn't have dropped the bomb later. It's my understanding that he quit after obtaining info of the dress-burning.
Yes, Twinsrwe, Alice may have believed beyond a reasonable doubt in Lizzie's guilt, and just couldn't let the matter slide. She was with Lizzie so much the day of the murders and the days immediately following, no telling what she saw and heard.
Yes, Twinsrwe, Alice may have believed beyond a reasonable doubt in Lizzie's guilt, and just couldn't let the matter slide. She was with Lizzie so much the day of the murders and the days immediately following, no telling what she saw and heard.
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Yooper
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So, assuming that Alice swore an oath at the Inquest and Preliminary hearings, it was clearly not a moral decision at all, especially if she consulted an attorney beforehand. It was an intellectual, perhaps even a legalistic decision.
I wonder if she really told all she knew or if the result of the discussion with the attorney only covered the dress burning. It was perhaps the one thing which could come from another source and put Alice in a bad light. If Alice's nature was to keep quiet and help cover things up, maybe there was more she could tell which only she knew. I think there were several people who told less than the entire truth about the incident.
I wonder if she really told all she knew or if the result of the discussion with the attorney only covered the dress burning. It was perhaps the one thing which could come from another source and put Alice in a bad light. If Alice's nature was to keep quiet and help cover things up, maybe there was more she could tell which only she knew. I think there were several people who told less than the entire truth about the incident.
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Yooper
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I also think Alice had reached a decision about Lizzie's involvement after the dress burning. She was a friend of the Borden sisters, so she probably felt some loyalty up until then. I imagine Mrs. Churchill and Bridget added up the score early on, probably right after being directed upstairs to the guest room. Mrs. Churchill seemed to beat a hasty retreat right after that, and Bridget couldn't wait to get out of the house. Mrs. Bowen seemed to duck and run shortly after that, too. Odd how Lizzie's support group seemed to scatter, as if on cue.
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DJ
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Yes-- Alice, as Bridget, was one of the people (Dr. Bowen being another) who I'm positive could have dropped major info that never made the light of day in testimony.
Since Alice hemmed and hawed from late summer into late autumn about dropping "the dress bomb," one wonders whether that was truly from a bout of conscience, or out of fear that the Pinkerton detective would come forward, and she might be apprehended by the authorities for withholding evidence?
So many "what if's" present themselves at the turning point of Alice's turning in the info. If the Pinkerton man hadn't been told, one wonders whether Alice would have unloaded her conscience. And, if not, whether Lizzie would have been indicted.
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That's one side of the coin, to judge Alice on the harsh side. To judge her on the light side: Maybe she saw and heard so much that reporting the dress burning was just the tip of the iceberg, compared to what she could have done.
Maybe she had knowledge way beyond a reasonable doubt of Lizzie's guilt, and was afraid that someone else might be tried and executed in Lizzie's stead, nature and homicide detectives abhorring a vacuum.
Knowlton was very harsh on Bridget, at least believing she knew something that could put the case away. Maybe Alice feared that, if Lizzie were turned loose, Bridget might swing in her stead.
Since Alice hemmed and hawed from late summer into late autumn about dropping "the dress bomb," one wonders whether that was truly from a bout of conscience, or out of fear that the Pinkerton detective would come forward, and she might be apprehended by the authorities for withholding evidence?
So many "what if's" present themselves at the turning point of Alice's turning in the info. If the Pinkerton man hadn't been told, one wonders whether Alice would have unloaded her conscience. And, if not, whether Lizzie would have been indicted.
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That's one side of the coin, to judge Alice on the harsh side. To judge her on the light side: Maybe she saw and heard so much that reporting the dress burning was just the tip of the iceberg, compared to what she could have done.
Maybe she had knowledge way beyond a reasonable doubt of Lizzie's guilt, and was afraid that someone else might be tried and executed in Lizzie's stead, nature and homicide detectives abhorring a vacuum.
Knowlton was very harsh on Bridget, at least believing she knew something that could put the case away. Maybe Alice feared that, if Lizzie were turned loose, Bridget might swing in her stead.
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Yooper
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Alice was actually the one who told the detective about the dress burning. He would not have had to describe the incident himself, only point the finger at Alice and say that she is not telling all she knows, she's covering up some very incriminating evidence.
Maybe the idea of trying to cover up information leads to paranoia. Not knowing who else might have the same information and bring it up first, along with the information that Alice was also aware of the same, became a lot of sorting out. It's like a liar trying to keep track of lies in a sense. Perhaps the best way to keep track of things is to tell the whole truth, at least it will be consistent.
Maybe the idea of trying to cover up information leads to paranoia. Not knowing who else might have the same information and bring it up first, along with the information that Alice was also aware of the same, became a lot of sorting out. It's like a liar trying to keep track of lies in a sense. Perhaps the best way to keep track of things is to tell the whole truth, at least it will be consistent.
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Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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kssunflower
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Kat
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According to Emma's testimony, Alice was not an *intimate* friend. Emma seems to distance them from Alice:
Trial
Q. Miss Russell was a friend of Miss Lizzie's, was she not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. An intimate friend?
A. No, sir.
Q. A calling friend?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. One that came to see her quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. One that she went to see quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On excellent terms?
A. On good terms.
Q. No lack of harmony between them at all?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Were they also associated in church work together?
A. No sir, never.
Q. She and Miss Russell didn't go to that church?
A. Miss Russell went to that church, but they were not associated in church work at all.
Page 1571 / i593
--Emma goes on to sort of disagree with what Alice testified to about what was said about the burning of the dress. Please follow up on page 1571 of the trial.
... ... ... ... ...
Alice says at the Inquest that she is equally friends with both girls:
147
Q. Who were you more particularly intimate with, Emma or Lizzie, or both?
A. I dont think there was very much difference.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Also, Hanscom quit after the dress burning info came to him? I thought he went to Iowa to detect more on Morse?
~ ~ ~ ~
In the FRHS Quarterly Report, Spring 2002, 14/1 pg 4, "Lizzie's Turncoat Friend," there is this bit which describes the way people (Alice) may have thought and reacted back in those days in old Fall River:
. . . A friend of both the Misses Borden, Alice Russell was among the first summoned to 92 Second Street following the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden, remaining there until the following Monday as company to the sisters. She testified at the inquest and preliminary hearing, but it was not until the grand jury hearing that she revealed her "burning of the dress" testimony. She was also a witness at the trial of Miss Lizzie A. Borden in June of 1893. While on the stand describing the events which occurred in the kitchen of the Borden house on Sunday, August 7, 1892, Miss Russell was instructed to make a series of marks on the floorplans of the house drawn by architect Thomas Kieran. An unusual legacy, the cross where she was standing, the outline of the stove in the Borden kitchen and the round mark illustrating where the burned dress was stored in the clothes press can still be seen on these trial exhibits in the Historical Society's archive.
Following the trial and its aftermath, she ceased to be on friendly terms with the Misses Borden, living a life that can best be described as quiet and genteel. Mrs. Florence Cook Brigham, to whom she taught sewing, fondly remembered her as "a gentle person" with "lovely white hair" and believed that she "would not have told the story about the burning of the dress if her conscience hadn't bothered her."
Alice Russell rarely spoke of the events of August 1892 and their aftermath; few who knew her in later life had any knowledge of her close association and involvement in the case. On the rare occasions when Miss Russell discussed the case with her cousin Ida, the latter woman's young daughter Mildred was asked to leave the room, the conversation not being considered proper for a young girl to hear. Alice told her cousin that she thought Lizzie Borden was innocent of the murders of Mr. & Mrs. Borden until August 7, 1892, when she saw her burn the dress in the kitchen stove. From the day of that observation until she breathed her last, she was convinced of Lizzie Borden's guilt.
There is little doubt that Miss Russell knew much about the goings-on in the Borden residence during the days following the discovery of the bodies, taking most of that information undisclosed to her grave. Always the lady and true to her Yankee heritage, she believed, as did many closely associated with the Borden case, that certain things were "not discussed." For that conviction, she deserves our admiration and respect.
~ ~ ~
I think in an earlier post, I may have misidentified the source (as to date) for this same topic about Alice Russell. If anyone finds it, please fix it? It's not a download at the FRHS site, tho it's a FRHS quote.
Trial
Q. Miss Russell was a friend of Miss Lizzie's, was she not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. An intimate friend?
A. No, sir.
Q. A calling friend?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. One that came to see her quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. One that she went to see quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On excellent terms?
A. On good terms.
Q. No lack of harmony between them at all?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Were they also associated in church work together?
A. No sir, never.
Q. She and Miss Russell didn't go to that church?
A. Miss Russell went to that church, but they were not associated in church work at all.
Page 1571 / i593
--Emma goes on to sort of disagree with what Alice testified to about what was said about the burning of the dress. Please follow up on page 1571 of the trial.
... ... ... ... ...
Alice says at the Inquest that she is equally friends with both girls:
147
Q. Who were you more particularly intimate with, Emma or Lizzie, or both?
A. I dont think there was very much difference.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Also, Hanscom quit after the dress burning info came to him? I thought he went to Iowa to detect more on Morse?
~ ~ ~ ~
In the FRHS Quarterly Report, Spring 2002, 14/1 pg 4, "Lizzie's Turncoat Friend," there is this bit which describes the way people (Alice) may have thought and reacted back in those days in old Fall River:
. . . A friend of both the Misses Borden, Alice Russell was among the first summoned to 92 Second Street following the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden, remaining there until the following Monday as company to the sisters. She testified at the inquest and preliminary hearing, but it was not until the grand jury hearing that she revealed her "burning of the dress" testimony. She was also a witness at the trial of Miss Lizzie A. Borden in June of 1893. While on the stand describing the events which occurred in the kitchen of the Borden house on Sunday, August 7, 1892, Miss Russell was instructed to make a series of marks on the floorplans of the house drawn by architect Thomas Kieran. An unusual legacy, the cross where she was standing, the outline of the stove in the Borden kitchen and the round mark illustrating where the burned dress was stored in the clothes press can still be seen on these trial exhibits in the Historical Society's archive.
Following the trial and its aftermath, she ceased to be on friendly terms with the Misses Borden, living a life that can best be described as quiet and genteel. Mrs. Florence Cook Brigham, to whom she taught sewing, fondly remembered her as "a gentle person" with "lovely white hair" and believed that she "would not have told the story about the burning of the dress if her conscience hadn't bothered her."
Alice Russell rarely spoke of the events of August 1892 and their aftermath; few who knew her in later life had any knowledge of her close association and involvement in the case. On the rare occasions when Miss Russell discussed the case with her cousin Ida, the latter woman's young daughter Mildred was asked to leave the room, the conversation not being considered proper for a young girl to hear. Alice told her cousin that she thought Lizzie Borden was innocent of the murders of Mr. & Mrs. Borden until August 7, 1892, when she saw her burn the dress in the kitchen stove. From the day of that observation until she breathed her last, she was convinced of Lizzie Borden's guilt.
There is little doubt that Miss Russell knew much about the goings-on in the Borden residence during the days following the discovery of the bodies, taking most of that information undisclosed to her grave. Always the lady and true to her Yankee heritage, she believed, as did many closely associated with the Borden case, that certain things were "not discussed." For that conviction, she deserves our admiration and respect.
~ ~ ~
I think in an earlier post, I may have misidentified the source (as to date) for this same topic about Alice Russell. If anyone finds it, please fix it? It's not a download at the FRHS site, tho it's a FRHS quote.
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Harry
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Well, it's unanimous it was Alice's obligation to tell about the dress burning and what she knew.
By sheer coincidence it is 116 years ago to the day, December 1, that she gave her testimony before the grand jury.
By sheer coincidence it is 116 years ago to the day, December 1, that she gave her testimony before the grand jury.
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Yooper
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I imagine almost everyone who recognized her name as having been associated with the Borden case wanted to discuss it with her. Trying to avoid that would be enough to drive anyone nuts after a while! She would probably wonder if people thought she was capable of talking about anything else.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Yooper
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stargazer
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If the dress had bloodstains on it, the blood would have changed color after a few days, and didn't Lizzie describe it as "stained with paint ?" Was Alice the only witness to the dress burning ? I can't recall.
Alice did the right thing, I believe. Suppose Alice had mentioned the burning of the dress to a relative in an offhand remark ? The grapevine carries information like wildfire, sometimes. "When in doubt, tell the truth."
Alice did the right thing, I believe. Suppose Alice had mentioned the burning of the dress to a relative in an offhand remark ? The grapevine carries information like wildfire, sometimes. "When in doubt, tell the truth."
Neglect is a one way street to nowhere
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cfking
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I think anyone would have told. If not out of your need to tell the truth, then to make sure if it came to light later, you wouldn't be associated with a cover-up.
The dress? Was this dress found in the initial search, was it looked over? I cannot find the info. Or did this dress magically appear in the kitchen when she was burning it? Help!
The dress? Was this dress found in the initial search, was it looked over? I cannot find the info. Or did this dress magically appear in the kitchen when she was burning it? Help!
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cfking
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I've been searching the forum by subject matter-that sometimes gets me way off subject! LOL. It's so easy once your looking for one thing to get caught up in something you just read!
I've also been looking thru the crime library here. I just ordered my first book. It's the Complete Lizzie Borden Source book.
Do you have any other recomendations Kat? Since you've been researching this so long, what books have you found that are factual and good study material? Any suggestions would help! Thanks!
I've also been looking thru the crime library here. I just ordered my first book. It's the Complete Lizzie Borden Source book.
Do you have any other recomendations Kat? Since you've been researching this so long, what books have you found that are factual and good study material? Any suggestions would help! Thanks!
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Kat
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Harry and I talk about this all the time. The best grounding in the actual facts of the case are the Source Documents: Witness Statements, Inquest, Preliminary Hearing, and Trial. We are fortunate to have all these proceedings in this case extant. Think how hard it is on the JackTheRipper buffs- they had nothing but inquests, and different jurisdictions, at that!
I think it's cool you are reading past threads. and I laughed as I read you get side-tracked! I still get side-tracked in the archive myself!
The downloads of these sources I mentioned are on our website. You probably know how to get there?
As for books- every author has an agenda. They are entertaining- but really you have access sometimes to more materal than some of them had when they wrote their books- so by studying on your own, you can form your own opinions. Those are worth more, don't you think?
After you have read those sources thru a couple of times, then you might consider news accounts- at that point you would be able to differentiate between what was spurious reportage, and what might be germaine.
It almost sounds like homework, huh?
Sometimes I never turn on the TV for days just from reading!
I'll tell you what- the Prelim is my favorite doucument. We just happen to sell it- but I promote it more because that proceeding was close to when the crimes happened- it is more casual in its approach to testimony and evidence, and it seems less formal and more real and urgent then the trial transcript from the following year. I've read it 5 times. I know our Susan has read it many times as well.
Info on Lizzie's dress she was wearing, and the outfit she turned over to the state, and the search of the dress closet- and the burning incident can all be found in the testimonies by doing a word search. (See Bridget, Mrs. Churchill and Mrs. Dr. Bowen and Alice Russell for this material- [pun intended] ).
Sorry I can't direct you to that info within this Forum site, as I'm not good at searches on here: Others are- but not I.
Maybe someone might direct you?
I think it's cool you are reading past threads. and I laughed as I read you get side-tracked! I still get side-tracked in the archive myself!
The downloads of these sources I mentioned are on our website. You probably know how to get there?
As for books- every author has an agenda. They are entertaining- but really you have access sometimes to more materal than some of them had when they wrote their books- so by studying on your own, you can form your own opinions. Those are worth more, don't you think?
After you have read those sources thru a couple of times, then you might consider news accounts- at that point you would be able to differentiate between what was spurious reportage, and what might be germaine.
It almost sounds like homework, huh?
Sometimes I never turn on the TV for days just from reading!
I'll tell you what- the Prelim is my favorite doucument. We just happen to sell it- but I promote it more because that proceeding was close to when the crimes happened- it is more casual in its approach to testimony and evidence, and it seems less formal and more real and urgent then the trial transcript from the following year. I've read it 5 times. I know our Susan has read it many times as well.
Info on Lizzie's dress she was wearing, and the outfit she turned over to the state, and the search of the dress closet- and the burning incident can all be found in the testimonies by doing a word search. (See Bridget, Mrs. Churchill and Mrs. Dr. Bowen and Alice Russell for this material- [pun intended] ).
Sorry I can't direct you to that info within this Forum site, as I'm not good at searches on here: Others are- but not I.
Maybe someone might direct you?
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cfking
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Thanks Kat! That is very Helpful-I will order the Prelim doc right away!
It is so hard getting sidetracked all the time! And I tend to obsess over the things that I will probably never get the answer too....like what the hell was the papers that Dr. Bowen was burning??? If only we had access to those.....
It is so hard getting sidetracked all the time! And I tend to obsess over the things that I will probably never get the answer too....like what the hell was the papers that Dr. Bowen was burning??? If only we had access to those.....
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Kat
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If you download the Witness Statements and the Inquest from the website for free at
lizzieandrewborden.com
and read those-and read the Prelim, I think you will really find some information you are looking for.
BTW: I think Rebello's book Lizzie Borden Past & Present is top-notch but I didn't bring that up because finding a copy might be near impossible, and very expensive.
If you happen to ask a question that is known to be addressed only (or mainly) thru his reference book, there are a couple of us who can endeavor to provide you with that info here (who have read it several times and can more easily find references).
lizzieandrewborden.com
and read those-and read the Prelim, I think you will really find some information you are looking for.
BTW: I think Rebello's book Lizzie Borden Past & Present is top-notch but I didn't bring that up because finding a copy might be near impossible, and very expensive.
If you happen to ask a question that is known to be addressed only (or mainly) thru his reference book, there are a couple of us who can endeavor to provide you with that info here (who have read it several times and can more easily find references).