Who was that man?

[Harry]

In Fleet's August 4th recording of Lizzie's Witness statements he has her saying (page 2):

"... A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away. ..."

Surprisingly, she is not questioned about this statement at the Inquest. She is questioned about the man she said that had been at the house several weeks earlier and had argued with her father.

Did Fleet misunderstand Lizzie and record it wrong? Did Lizzie get her days mixed up?

If Fleet recorded it correctly it's almost incomprehensible that the police didn't question her further on it at the Inquest.

[Yooper]

One way to make some sense of this is if the police followed up on the information, found the man who visited, and determined that he had an alibi for the time of the murders. That might explain why she wasn't questioned about it further. It's odd that it wouldn't show up somewhere else in the witness statements though, if they followed up on the information.

[Kat]

This disappearing man has always bugged me. Is it Lincoln who claims it was her grandfather bringing an eligible young man to court Lizzie, but they left without meeting? Maybe not Lincoln?

Since Clegg had been there, I think, twice that week, maybe he did come there Thursday too?

Maybe there are missing Witness Statements. UGH!

[Susan]

Kat, Lincoln said that it wasn't her grandfather, that he was not the type to play cupid at nine in the morning or ever. Apparently this was information that she had seen written somewhere and was responding to it.

I think the crucial part is the timing, Lizzie said someone came around nine to see Andrew. Someone also allegedly came that morning to deliver a sick note for Abby. And then there is Mark Chase's testimony, Trial volume 2, page 1361, where he states there was a strange carriage parked out front of the Borden home around eleven o'clock. Someone else to see Andrew? If so, that front door saw alot of action that day, to be constantly triple locked and Bridget not aware of any of the visitors! Or, perhaps Lizzie muddled or fudged the time that a man came to see Andrew. She did say in her inquest that Andrew hadn't left the house until around ten that morning. Could someone have come to see Andrew minutes before he was to die? That would certainly put a new spin on his murder and timing.

I can't locate it right now, but, wasn't there some testimony from a woman who was looking at waterlillies in a tub in the back of a wagon out front of the Borden house? Was this perhaps the strange open carriage out front of #92?

[Harry]

This disappearing man has always bugged me. Is it Lincoln who claims it was her grandfather bringing an eligible young man to court Lizzie, but they left without meeting? Maybe not Lincoln?

Since Clegg had been there, I think, twice that week, maybe he did come there Thursday too?

Maybe there are missing Witness Statements. UGH!

I first thought it was Clegg as well. Lizzie mentioned he spoke "English". I never knew whether that meant he was not an immigrant or he spoke like he was from England. Clegg was born in England. However, he is asked at the trial, p172:

"Q. Where did you first see Mr. Borden on the morning of August 4th?
A. In my store, 6 North Main Street."

[snokkums]

This disappearing man has always bugged me. Is it Lincoln who claims it was her grandfather bringing an eligible young man to court Lizzie, but they left without meeting? Maybe not Lincoln?

Since Clegg had been there, I think, twice that week, maybe he did come there Thursday too?

Maybe there are missing Witness Statements. UGH!

I first thought it was Clegg as well. Lizzie mentioned he spoke "English". I never knew whether that meant he was not an immigrant or he spoke like he was from England. Clegg was born in England. However, he is asked at the trial, p172:

"Q. Where did you first see Mr. Borden on the morning of August 4th?
A. In my store, 6 North Main Street."

I always under the impression that it was someone who wanted to rent a office space in one of Andrew's building, but Andrew wouldn't or was asking to much rent money. Maybe my infromation is wrong.

[augusta]

Snookums, that was something Lizzie said happened before August 4th, when she said the man argued with Andrew and Andrew said he would not let his store out for that purpose (maybe drinking). I don't remember the cops ever tracking that guy down and talking to him.

Harry & Kat, Yes, I have read that too, and it does read as if it happened on the Fatal Fourth. But it is not part of the narrative in court of that morning. I don't know who was drinking what, but I don't think it happened that morning.

Sherry Christmas!

[snokkums]

Oh, ok, thought it was something. But, was that what she was referring too, got her days mixed up? Or was this a different man? Wonder why the police didn't clear this up or find this man, see if it wasn't the same man. Maybe the same man came by twice?

[diana]

I can't locate it right now, but, wasn't there some testimony from a woman who was looking at waterlillies in a tub in the back of a wagon out front of the Borden house? Was this perhaps the strange open carriage out front of #92?

The woman was Delia Manley. She testified she was in front of the Borden house at approximately 9:45 on the morning of the murders and that she and her companion, a Mrs. Hart, were speaking with a gentleman and a lady in a carriage when she saw a young man standing in the north gateway between the Borden and the Churchill houses, leaning against the south gate post. He was still there when she left.

Oddly she identifies the other man (the "gentleman" in the carriage) as Mr. Manley at the Preliminary Hearing -- but at Trial -- he's simply referred to as a man with pond lilies in a carriage who stopped between the Borden and Churchill houses. Perhaps by this time Mr. Manley had asked not to be identified? (Source for testimony: Prelim. 479+ and Trial, 1377+)

Apparently Delia Manley was related by marriage to Alice Russell. She said she used to visit her sister-in-law, Mrs. Russell when Mrs. Russell lived in the Kelly house – so she knew the neighborhood well. Alice’s middle name was Manley, of course. Delia was 42 at the time of the murder and Alice was 38. Delia married Seabury T. Manley in 1869. So was Seabury Manley the brother of Judith Manley Russell, I wonder? (Source for these dates was Hoffman’s Yesterday in Old Fall River)

[DJ]

Lincoln's theory about the carriage, the caller with the note, and the young man loitering (the caller with the note), is built around the alleged property transfer of the Swansea farm to Abby that a.m.-- that the carriage and the note were for Abby, who was to meet Andrew and Uncle John at one of the banks (I forget which one). Lizzie allegedly had caught wind of all this, cut short her vacation, and the caller with the note (the loitering young man) and the carriage confirmed the matter to her.
The thing that strikes me about Lincoln's theory is, that before I encountered it, I had also theorized that the Swansea farm was a focal point of the matter. However, I was thinking more along the lines of a will being drawn up, not a property transfer.
Anyway, Lincoln's theory accounts for Uncle John's fishy behavior about the alibi and his account of there being no crowd at the house upon his return, etcetera, WITHOUT implicating him in the murders themselves. However, she is explicit that he was there to effect the property transfer, for thereafter he would derive use of the farm for his horses, and one of his nieces was going to be in residence there.
Lincoln's analysis of Lizzie's mindset, behavior, character traits, and overall psychology seems excellent. I'm not so sure about the epileptic fits tied to her menstrual cycle. Ex post facto medical analyses tend to bug me, but-- who knows?
The author also supplies a plausible reason why Lizzie "went ahead" and killed her Father-- she knew that he would never look at her the same again, that his expressions and actions would always be underlined by his knowing that she had killed Abby, and that Lizzie couldn't bear to carry the weight of that. (She probably began experiencing it after the robbery, which probably was a test of Andrew's affections for, and devotion to, her, as much as anything else.)
Lincoln theorizes that Lizzie was highly jealous of Abby, and of anything that Andrew did for her and not for Lizzie, which is why Lizzie went ballistic over the first property transfer to Abby. Even though Lizzie and Emma ultimately came out ahead with their property and its "buy back," Lizzie couldn't get over the fact that Andrew did something for Abby first, and didn't do for Lizzie, until Lizzie pitched a fit about it.
I've no problem believing that, if Andrew were attempting to transfer the Swansea property to Abby (Lincoln: His white "parcel" containing the deed), and Lizzie caught wind of it, it would have been more than enough cause to send Lizzie over the edge that a.m.

[Kat]

These are references to males from the "Suspect List" I created at the website. They are listed alphabetically as "A Man." Also, please pardon if there is overlap with other's posted info. It's a copy paste I've been trying to get to for several nights. I had to go to my original document instead of the website- I'm using a very old Apple laptop with a very old browser. Luckilly my original document was in the files.
Note, each cite is given for a reference, but the last listed is the one quoted.

A Man — Hoffman, pg. 222-3:  Mrs. Delia Manley (and Sara Hart) saw a man leaning on the Borden's gate the morning of Aug.4. Mrs. M. could not remember what he looked like.  Also, Porter, pg. 205:  Sara Hart says it was a young man, " . . . about 9:50 . . . resting his head on his left hand, his elbow being on the gatepost . . . " 
Also, Ashton, pg. 217, Jennings notes, d. Mrs. Horatio Hart- Light suit of clothes (mixed suit) derby hat mustache--looked impudent, inquisitive as if prying in our business not far by 9:50 (fri)-- didn't notice his shoes, awkward position, made me uncomfortable I knew every house there  my sister is Alice Russell's mother.  Never saw the man before . . . as I know.  Looked as though he was prying with something, walked by us . . . elbow (?) at s gate post got down street just time enough to take 10 o'clock (city hall) car,bell struck before I got to it.


A Man — Ashton, pg. 216, Jennings notes, 

b.Brow Stephen (Pouson called) 'About 10:20 I was standing at Mrs. C's gate.  I saw a man by a tree in front of Mr. B's standing still coming towards the house, about 10:35 after Mr. B. had gone in, I saw him come up, he passed me at Mrs. C's gate.  Then he looked down the street and walked off, as far as Wade's store, then I went in yard. A man brought carriage over after man had gone from Hartwell Street.  Man as P height-- black mustache and bright suit-- kind of stiff hat cut away coat hollow faced dark complected I saw d. Handy go by (fast) while the man was walking away.'

"A Man Came" — Masterton, pg. 232.  Also Witness.Statements, pg. 5:  Lizzie Borden being questioned by Harrington, Thursday, Aug. 4th,

Have you any reason, no matter how slight, to suspect anybody?  'N-n-no, I have not.'  why hesitate?  'Well, a few weeks ago father had angry words with a man about something.'  What was it? 'I did not know at the time, but they were both very angry at the time;  and the stranger went away.'  Did you see him at all?  'No sir they were in another room;  but from the tone of their voices, I knew things were not pleasant between them . . . About two weeks ago he called again.  They had a very animated conversation, during which they got very angry again.  I heard Father say  "no sir, I will not let my store for any such business."  Just before they separated, I heard father say "well, when you are in town again, come up, and I will let you know about it.''' 

[Duplicate of original post, W.S.]
Also, pg. 2: Lizzie being questioned by John Fleet, Thurs., Aug. 4th, 1892 : 
A man came here this morning about nine o'clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English.  I did not see him;  heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.