Some theories I haven't heard of

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:43 am

I just signed up for Mondo Lizzie on you tube and was watching one of the videos and it was about theories.

One of the theories was that the reason why Lizzie killed her parents is that she was afraid of being an old maid with 32 cats and no inhiertance.

Another one of the theories is the same as the first on but Emma was involved.

And here's one that I have never heard. Lizzie and Bridget were lovers and Abby discovered them together, so Lizzie and Bridget had to kill her and killed Andrew for good measure.

Has anyone ever heard of that theory?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:30 pm

I think we have all heard of these theories, Snokks.

I tend to agree with the first one about Lizzie worrying about growing older without money. I've always felt that that was the most likely reason Lizzie would kill but I really don't think Bridget had anything to do with it. Emma and Uncle John maybe but I doubt Bridget.

-1bigsteve (o:

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 6:49 pm

I think I have heard of Emma being involved one way or another, and maybe John, but Bridget being involved only after the fact. To help clean Lizzie up.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:47 pm

The theory of Bridget and Lizzie being "caught together" by Abby was used as the murder motive by Evan Hunter in his novel, "Lizzie." I liked his novel but did not agree with that theory. I've seen that theory in at least one other place as well that I can't remember.

I agree with Big Steve. But I think there was more to the story of Andrew making a will than most of us have read. I think there was something going on with it - was about to go on with it - at the time of the murders.

I heard that someone wrote a story with Dr. Bowen as the culprit. Does anyone know of a piece based on that theory? I would sure like to read that.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:46 pm

What would have been Uncle John's reason for the murder or helping with it? Emma I can see, but what would John's?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:13 pm

The theory about Dr. Bowen is mentioned in Rebello. This is from page 136:

Richard Powers' Theory - Dr. Bowen Did It

Powers, Richard, "Death of a Massachusetts Trojan," Washington, D.C., Chief of Police, vol. iv, no. 4, July / August, 1989: 34-45.

"Maryland Writer Says Doctor Killed Bordens," Fall River Herald News, August 5, 1989: 2.

Richard Powers of Maryland, a retired state prison guard and Maryland historian, posed the theory in the July / August issue of Chief of Police Magazine that Dr. Seabury Bowen, the doctor who lived across the street from the Bordens, killed Andrew and Abby Borden and removed the murder weapon from the scene in his doctor's bag. Powers suggested there were ill feelings between the doctor and the Bordens. "A conspiracy among the city's physicians dominated the hierarchy to kill the old-fashioned, penny-pinching bank president who stood in the way of progress."

--We have this item and It Is Terrible!! I would suggest that no one even bother getting it or reading it. Total waste of time.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:14 am

I don't know if I can buy the Dr. Bowen theory, that the reason for killing Andy was because he was " the old fashioned penny-pinching bank president who stood in the way of progress".

The reason being in because if you fell that way about him, you could just stop doing business with him. Weren't there other banks in Fall River that the citys' physicians could go to?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:09 am

Uncle John's reason/s for being involved in the murders, if he was, may have been that he was the blood-related uncle of the 'girls' and had his sister (the 1st Mrs. Borden) not died, the money would have went to her and the daughters. Even as things were, he may have felt a surge of Morse pride and resented any talk of Abby getting the lion's share.

Abby did not care for John Morse's sudden drop-ins, which sometimes involved him spending the night. Maybe Morse picked up on this irritation she harbored. (See Nellie McHenry's article on her interview with Bridget not long after the murders.)

Morse claimed Andrew talked to him about a will twice, I think and the 'girls' were told about the will by Morse. It is in the testimony. (See "What Was in Abby's Pocket" by Sherry Chapman in the current issue of The Hatchet.) That must have stirred the pot.

Morse's alibi and actions were, to me, suspicious.

Morse was a butcher in his younger age. He was in close touch with the butcher Davis at the time of the murders (whose family Morse once lived with and learned the butcher''s trade from) They were killed as if someone knew what they were doing. The blood of the victims was confined pretty well. They were not just hacked willy-nilly.

Morse probably did get $$ for arranging the murders.

Thanks for describing the piece on Dr. Bowen, Kat. I'd still like to read it some time. It's one I never read before.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:47 pm

It's simply awful. It's not even worth me getting up and walking over to my files and getting it out to scan to you.
I accidentally read it twice. The 2nd time was a mistake. I have since filed it under "Crap" in my brain so I don't duplicate the effort!

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:16 am

I could see why Morse would be invovled with the murders. The way the law states that the estate goes to the next living relative which is considered to be the living spouse. By gettinggetting rid of Abby, that would insure that the girls get thier inheirtance. I get the feeling that Morse didn't like Abby either.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:58 am

I understand, and have faith in your opinion, that the Bowen article is 'crap'. I'd still like to read it, tho. Some day. Maybe when I'm laying in bed fevered with flu and a bad lung infection ...

Snookums, what makes you think Uncle John did not like Abby?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:04 am

Harry has sent me a follow-up piece from the paper, Sun Herald News..
It's by Bernie Sullivan, called "Latest theory on Borden murders: The Doctor Dunnit," 1989. It's a good analysis of the Powers theory, and is pretty critical of it.

My problem with Powers is his timeline. He's pretty proud of it, and seems to think he has proved something no one ever noticed before, but his timeline is flawed so there goes his theory.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:44 am

Not only is the time line out of whack, it also includes a massive conspiracy reminiscent of Arnold Brown's book.

It even has the workers in Crowe's yard helping Dr. Bowen scale the fence in the rear of the yard as he smuggles out the murder weapon.

He mangles a few of the names, (Wixon becomes Waxman, Doherty becomes Daughy, etc.). He refers to Bridget Sullivan as "Maggie" 17 times but never once to her real name.

In this article a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:50 pm

Kat @ Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:13 pm wrote:The theory about Dr. Bowen is mentioned in Rebello. This is from page 136:

Richard Powers' Theory - Dr. Bowen Did It

Powers, Richard, "Death of a Massachusetts Trojan," Washington, D.C., Chief of Police, vol. iv, no. 4, July / August, 1989: 34-45.

"Maryland Writer Says Doctor Killed Bordens," Fall River Herald News, August 5, 1989: 2.

Richard Powers of Maryland, a retired state prison guard and Maryland historian, posed the theory in the July / August issue of Chief of Police Magazine that Dr. Seabury Bowen, the doctor who lived across the street from the Bordens, killed Andrew and Abby Borden and removed the murder weapon from the scene in his doctor's bag. Powers suggested there were ill feelings between the doctor and the Bordens. "A conspiracy among the city's physicians dominated the hierarchy to kill the old-fashioned, penny-pinching bank president who stood in the way of progress."

--We have this item and It Is Terrible!! I would suggest that no one even bother getting it or reading it. Total waste of time.

A conspiracy among the city's physicians? Oh, PLEASE! My ex-husband is a doctor and the only thing a group of physicians might conspire about is how to raise their fees!!!

Andrew might have been old-fashioned and penny pinching, but I'm sure a lot of other men were as well. In fact, in my experience, the more money a person has, the less of it he wants to spend.

The lack of progress would not have hurt the doctors practices any....people get sick with or without progress!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:55 pm

Bernie Sullivan was hoping there would be an affair between Lizzie and Dr. Bowen that led to the murders. He states he was disappointed that such a more obvious motive was not posited by the author, Powers. It seemed like Sullivan might have bought that theory.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:58 am

For some reason, I can't see the good doctor and Lizzie an "item". But at any rate, knowing knowing how Andy felt about the goood doctor, I could see if there was an affair, Andrew telling them both to call it off. Or at least, telling the doctor to back off, and the both of them geting mad and conspiring to kill Andy. But that wouldn't explain why they would kill Abby, unless it was just overkill. Or that murder all on Lizzie.

That scenrio is almost too bizarre to think about.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:38 pm

Well, tongues wagged when Bowen escorted Lizzie to church. I'm not sure when that "escort" was supposed to have taken place, nor how many times he was supposed to have done it. Dr. Bowen was a member of the Baptist Church in FR; not Lizzie's.

I don't like that business of Bowen burning something in the Borden kitchen stove and being seen by Philip Harrington.

But the Crowe crew giving him a boost over the fence???

stargazer · Post by **stargazer** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:22 pm

How would Uncle John have changed his clothing ? How would he get into and out of the house unseen ? The busy street would make it hard to be missed milling about.
I think that Lizzie had a meltdown that day. There were so many things crashing down on her. Wills, and property, Abby'$ relatives, the farm, and the fear that she would not be able to have her romantic home, and some breathing space. Imagine Andrew or Abby developing Alzheimers on top of it all. Just a theory.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:36 pm

I have always leaned toward the idea that Lizzie did the killings and she did it for money. Like Snokk's said Lizzie didn't want to end up living with 32 cats and no money. After the killings and trial Lizzie lived the "good life" so she did benefit from the money. Her parent's death seemed to "solve" some of her problems. Adding it all up leads me to believe that Lizzie, and maybe Emma too, had the most to gain from the deaths of her parents.

-1bigsteve (o:

cfking · Post by **cfking** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:43 pm

I definitely agree with the money-motive Steve. I think that Lizzie's trip abroad had given her the taste of the good life and the kind of social experience she should be having. I see that as the tipping point for her. Can you imagine how she felt after living the life abroad then returning to that cramped, unmodern home that she had to share with Abby & Andrew. And they look like SO much fun. LOL. Emma as well. I think it was a murder that was hatched between Lizzie, Emma and Uncle John, if not more of their maternal side of the family.
While I personally suspect Lizzie was a lesbian, I do not think she would have an affair with Bridget, simply because of the class factor. Bridget would have been so much beneath her socially, even to have an suspect affair with.