Crazy Horse

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augusta
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Crazy Horse

Post by augusta »

I've always read that Crazy Horse never got his picture taken because he was afraid having it done would take his spirit away.

I ran into the attached photo I found while browsing on the web. It claims it is the only picture of Crazy Horse. I dumbly did not write the URL down. I've never seen a photo of this Native American before. :?:
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Post by twinsrwe »

Augusta, I did some research on the alleged photo of Chief Crazy Horse just last month! At this point in time, I am not convinced that this is an actual photo Chief Crazy Horse. Below are the URL's which I saved from my research; I think you will find the information within these links to be very interesting.

http://www.friendslittlebighorn.com/cra ... -photo.htm

http://www.custermuseum.org/crazyhorse.htm

http://www.dickshovel.com/Allegedphoto.html

I'm interested in hearing what you think of the photo after reading these links.
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Post by kssunflower »

Thanks for the links and info, guys. I'm a Custer fan and read all I can on Little Bighorn.
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

If one does his homework you will discover that indeed there are many photos of Crazy horse. It appears that later in life he went into movies. Below is a photo of him playing Victor Mature.
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Those who indulge in Indian Studies would know this.

A couple of years back I watched a fascinating documentary on one man's mission to build a Crazy Horse Memorial.

It is 10 times larger than Mount Rushmore. It began in 1948 and is still no way near completion.

Amazing Stuff......


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... n%26sa%3DN



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Post by kssunflower »

Impressive, but where's the tribute to Sitting Bull......? :wink:
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Yes Kssunflower:

Good question. Perhaps it's in the name, as Crazy Horse sounds more interesting than Sitting Bull.

Have you seen the movie "Little Big Man".

I love westerns. When the movie came out in 1970 I was fascinated by it's account of Indians. It was the first time I had ever seen a gay depiction in a western movie, and an American Indian no-less. Also the portrayal of the "Contrary Warrior", who I later discovered really exist. The Contrary warrior would ride his horse into battle backwards, that is, sitting backwards. He would wash with dirt instead of water, say no when he meant yes, etc. This was meant to confuse and instill fear into their enemy.

If you like western movies Little Big Man, who was a real person, is a great movie. (Little Big Man was involved and with Crazy Horse when he was killed, stabbed. Not sure about the story and would need to read up on it to comment any further, thus not sure if the movie Little Big Man has any truith in it, or if it portrays the real Little Big Man. (?)
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Post by kssunflower »

I vaguely recall Little Big Man with Dustin Hoffman. And somewhere (maybe PBS?) I've seen programs on eyewitness accounts from Indian scouts taken at the turn of the century. There are varying accounts as to Custer's, Benteen's and Reno's actions during the battle.
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Post by augusta »

Oh, boy! A Custer Cluster! I've been stuck on the subject since I was a little kid.

Mb, Yes, there was an Indian named Little Big Man, but I am sure the "Little Big Man" in the movie is fictional. The book was written by Thomas Berger, and was excellent. It's my favorite movie. He wrote a sequel to it too that I have but have not read yet.

I've never heard of any "contrary" Indians in real life, but I thought it was a creative touch to the film. You used the same words in the movie to describe them. Were you kidding?

:grin: Victor Mature was hilarious! He was even worse than Anthony Quinn.

I just read a negative blip about Custer that was interesting. In 1874 when he was in the Dakotas, there was a ferocious snowstorm. Custer's 7th cavalry was out there stumbling their way through it. The townsfolk went out and found them and saved them, while Custer was resting in his house with Libbie, nursing a cold.

If you look online at tourist things in Hardin, Montana, they did have a tape you could buy that showed you the entire battle re-enactment. I was gonna go out there to see it, but then saw the tape. The re-enactment did not take place on the actual battlefield; you had to sit in the scorching sun on bleachers to see it; and surprisingly it was boring. We fell asleep watching it!

There's a good museum in Monroe, Michigan that has some great stuff of his: a pair of field glasses (you can imagine Indians he probably saw thru them); a buffalo coat of his; his desk; lots of stuff. Tho he is buried at West Point, his family plot is in Monroe. I posted pictures on FindAGrave.com of them. I've visited his farm that he bought and intended to live in after military life, but never made it. His wife lived in it, tho. His horse (that was not in the battle - "Dandy", I think his name was)is buried on the property, and I think I found where. Glad I took photos when I did - someone bought it and I think they re-did it. Saw Judge Bacon's house & took photos; it's still standing. That was exciting stuff to me :!:

"Son of the Morning Star" was an excellent book, and I loved the movie, too - except for what a lot of people complained about - the casting of Roseanna Arquette as Libbie Custer. She looks anorexic. Libbie was beautiful, and in her photos she seemed to glow.

Thank you for the links, twinsrwe. :smile: Strange you were just studying this.
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Post by twinsrwe »

kssunflower @ Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:15 pm wrote:Thanks for the links and info, guys. I'm a Custer fan and read all I can on Little Bighorn.
You're welcome, Cindy - hope you enjoyed reading these links as much as I enjoyed doing the research.
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Post by twinsrwe »

augusta @ Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:58 pm wrote:Thank you for the links, twinsrwe. :smile: Strange you were just studying this.
You're welcome, Augusta. I hope you found these links interesting. I have been fascinated with the history of Chief Crazy Horse for quite some time now. Interesting man. I also thought it was strange that I had been recently studying his alleged photo.
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Post by mbhenty »

Yes Augusta:


:smile:

There really was such a group as contrary warriors. There's a book called the American Indian Archery, by the son of an Indian chief. ( I was into archery at one time) which describes the Indian contrary warrior. It is believed that the Contrary warrior started with the Cheyennes.

Below is a site that mentions the Contraries.


:study:
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Post by kssunflower »

augusta @ Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:58 pm wrote: I just read a negative blip about Custer that was interesting. In 1874 when he was in the Dakotas, there was a ferocious snowstorm. Custer's 7th cavalry was out there stumbling their way through it. The townsfolk went out and found them and saved them, while Custer was resting in his house with Libbie, nursing a cold.
I think he was court martialed in 1867, also. Something to do with being absent from duty when Libbie was ill. I loved Son of the Morningstar! The Univ. of Kansas museum has Comanche, the sole survivor of the battle. Also, I've toured his former residence at Ft. Riley, KS. It's supposed to be haunted.
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Post by Kat »

I admit to knowing not much about this subject- so I Googled Crazy Horse images and there is another photo supposedly of him. So if one is questionable, what of this other?
Any comment from those more knowledgeable than I?
:?:
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Post by twinsrwe »

Kat @ Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:05 pm wrote: ... I Googled Crazy Horse images and there is another photo supposedly of him. So if one is questionable, what of this other?...
Kat, can you provide us with the image of the other photo you found or the URL regarding that photo? I'd like to do some research on the photo you found so that I can answer your question, that is if there is an answer.
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Post by Kat »

All I can say is to direct your search to:

Google
Images (look in the upper left of main Google page for this)
Click there
Search "crazy horse"

The first page result gives another picture that might be him... and drawings as well/
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Post by augusta »

Thanks, Kat. That was easy to find. I never used that feature on Google before.
There were a few different ones that claimed to be Crazy Horse. I'll bet none of them are. There's another one I didn't see there, where it's supposed to be him outdoors on a horse.
To my knowledge, he was very anti the white man's ways. I tend to believe he would not let his picture be taken. I can't imagine him posing in a photographer's studio. He was pretty young in 1876, at the Battle of the Little Big Horn - 33 or so. They say he is buried in a secret place, where only his relatives know where he is in an unmarked grave. I never questioned that before. But it'd be interesting to know how they got his body back from the white guys. (That Lincoln show is responsible for my line of thinking there. :smile: )
Mb - So there really were "contraries"! That's interesting! :smile:
kssunflower: How cool to see Custer's Fort Riley house! What hauntings occur/ed there? I wanted to see his house at Ft. Lincoln, where he and Libby lived during 1876, but it burned and was re-constructed.
Wasn't Comanche the horse of Miles Keogh? I've always wanted to see it.

When he was tried for going AWOL, returning to Libbie when she was ill, I think they threw in the charge of how he shot deserters and did not allow one a doctor. He got sent back to Monroe, Michigan supposedly for a year, but I think he was called back for the summer campaign against "the hostiles" thanks to his friendship with General Terry.

Somewhere on line years ago, I saw a picture of his life insurance policy. The animals he preserved out west are at some college ... Does anyone know which one? Those would be great to see.

I don't mean to sound like I'm a fan of his. I'm not sure. Most of the stuff I've read about him have glorified him, and I don't have a balanced portrait of him. I do hate him for what he did at the Battle of the Washita. When you read how many women and children were slaughtered (a lot) compared to how many warriors were (hardly any), he certainly was no war hero there.
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Post by augusta »

Mb: Wow - I did a little looking around on the web about Contraries, and it is fascinating. I started to feel the need to find out why one was a Contrary, and the things I found were incredible.

I don't know if this definition is correct or not (it comes from a Forum, and we all know how they are :grin: ). "Cheyenne contraries were important as educators or trainers and reinforcers of moral code by essentially showing what not to do." (From armchairgeneral.com forums.)

There is a section devoted to Contraries that is fast reading in Google books, "The Cheyenne Indians: Their Histories and Ways of Life", by George Bird Grinnell - originally published in 1928 - this edition published by U of Nebraska, 1972.

Well worth the short read!
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Post by kssunflower »

augusta @ Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:58 pm wrote:
kssunflower: How cool to see Custer's Fort Riley house! What hauntings occur/ed there? I wanted to see his house at Ft. Lincoln, where he and Libby lived during 1876, but it burned and was re-constructed.
Wasn't Comanche the horse of Miles Keogh? I've always wanted to see it.
.
Allegedly his ghost has been spotted at his former residence and around the fort. I've read he and Libbie were a lively sort and used to chase each other around their Ft. Riley home. People have claimed to heard footsteps and laughter with no explanation. Yes, Comanche was Keough's mount. I think he is the reason I have such a great interest in Little Bighorn. Every time I've seen him, I've tried to envision what that battle must have been like. And when I say I'm a Custer "fan", I only mean I'm fascinated by all the conflicting information about him. I also admire Libbie very much.
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

While we are on the Native American issue...................

I watched the movie The Outlaw Josey Wales for the 10 time or so tonight :!:

Awful acting.................but I love it.

There was this Indian in it called Ten Bears.

I wondered whether he really existed.

He did.

A memeber and chief of the Comanches, Ten Bears and his people were settled along the Washita River at the time the calvary attacked and killed a village of cheyennes.

Whether he participated in any raids or not I couldn't say, or know enough.

But from what tiny bit I uncovered, Ten Bears was a peaceful man and always lobbied with the U.S. government for peace.

Interesting to discover that he really existed and that he was depicted in the movie Josey Wales...

Will Sampson who played Ten Bears was a real Indian. You may remeber him as the Indian in One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest, and Potergeist II. He died a young man from complications in a heart transplant.

And for all you Abe Lincoln fans, also in this movie was an appearance by Royal Dano. One of my favorite character actors.




:study:
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Post by augusta »

kssunflower: Yes, Libbie and "Autie" (a nickname of Custer's from childhood) were real cut-ups, as Lizzie would say... Custer's brother, Tom, was very close to them and the three were rather inseperable.
That makes sense that there'd be laughter heard at their old house. That's scary, because apparently that's how they were in life.

They liked to dress up and put on plays to relieve boredom at the forts. There's a photo of Custer and others dressed up in costumes when doing one of these. Apparently they had great fun doing them.

I like the little bits and pieces I'll find in books now and then - stuff I hadn't seen before. In one book (I've read so many on him, I don't know which one) happened to mention that he stuttered, especially when excitable. About 10 years back, one mentioned that he was going bald. I had never thought of that, but sure enough, if you look at a photo of him as an older man (he only lived till age 36) you can see a lot of his forehead disappearing under the front of his hat.

I agree with you on Libbie Custer. She was some woman. Have you read any of the books she had written? You probably know that she appears in at least one silent moving picture. That is really cool to see her. I hold onto the hope that some day we'll hear of one with Lizzie in one. Since she liked to have her picture taken and she liked new things, I'd think chances are good that she was in a private one.

Libbie's mission in life, after 1876, was to make her husband a martyr. As his wife, I reserve an opinion on it. I cannot imagine her bereavement after he died - they were so close. (Well, except for "Monaseeta" - wrong spelling, I know- Custer's supposed Indian wife and a child they say they had together.)

Libbie died at something like 93 years old in 1933. And she was still a pretty woman. They say she walked one mile a day. I don't think Custer left her much money when he died. I think her books and her lecturing were at least just as much for the money.

Tho his book "My Life on the Plains" is often criticized as self-grandeur, I still find it exciting to read his "I was there" adventures. Imagine even seeing an Indian warrior, let alone engaging in warfare with one. Libbie's books are very good. I'll bet they may be on Google books for free.

An excellent DVD on the Battle of the Little Big Horn is "Little Big Horn - The Untold Story" that I got on the History Channel's website. Every time it was on tv I watched it, so I finally bought a copy. This tells it more from the Indians' point of view, and is a great documentary of the battle. It's 100 minutes, and a couple years ago I think I paid $20 for it.

Mb: I never saw "The Outlaw Josey Wales". It's neat that Ten Bears was a real Indian - at least by the name. I haven't studied the Comanche or Apache tribes. The Sioux and Cheyenne were always my first choice, and then the Chippewa and tribes that lived in Michigan and nearby.

I was a member of The Little Big Horn Association for several years, and once a year they put out this magazine for subscribers called "Greasy Grass" (the Lakota name for the valley of the Little Big Horn, I think). It's a glossy, excellent magazine and I should have stayed in it just for that.

Anyway, in one issue they listed a whole bunch of Indians' names, that I think were involved in the Custer fight, because that was the focus of the club. I never knew this, but they had a sense of humor in naming people. Some had nasty names! I was surprised.

I think my son might be a 'contrary'. Sometimes I could swear he washes with water and rinses with dirt...
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Hey! What do you know..........

Will Sampson played Crazy Horse in the movie called THE WHITE BUFFALO staring Charles Bronson.

Here he is as Crazy Horse. (Poor Victor Mature. Just does not compare)
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Post by augusta »

The video I just recommended, "The Little Big Horn - The Untold Story", I watched tonight. I didn't notice it before, but it was narrated by Fritz Weaver. :shock:

(It also said Libbie Custer died at the age of 91. :oops: )
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Post by kssunflower »

Augusta, I've only read excerpts of Tenting on the Plains, but I love books like that detail everyday life in the military. It seems you've read quite a bit on 'ole G.A.C. Speaking of his hair, somewhere I'd read that he was so vain and particualor about it, he'd spend quite a bit of time primping with scented oils if he had a parade appearance, etc.
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Post by augusta »

kssunflower, He probably did use oils to primp with. He would wear something flamboyant as part of his uniform. He loved going out east, alone or with Libbie, and loved society. He loved the theatre. They say he was very interested in the ladies there.

I read the book by Mark Kellogg (the newspaper writer who went along on that last campaign and died at the Little Big Horn). I wanted to know who he was. It was real interesting. It's called "I Go With Custer" and should be pretty available, as my copy is a fairly recent reprint.

"A Road We Do Not Know" is real good, too.

I've been wanting a copy of the book by the trumpeter, Giovanni Martini (George Martin) who marched with Custer's column all the way until he was sent to give that last "Bring Packs" message to Benteen. I saw it on AbeBooks for $125. I don't need a collector's copy - just a cheap reprint.

I've often wondered if the Army told Libbie that Custer was the only one who was not mutilated (except for a fingertip and sewing awls driven into his ears) because they felt sorry for her and thought it would make her real upset. I don't see how he got out of being mutilated because a lot of the Indians who told their version of the battle say they didn't know it was Custer. He didn't have his traditional 'Long Hair'; it was cut short before he left the fort for the last time.
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Post by kssunflower »

I've read some accounts that note he was wearing buckskins instead of a uniform, so the Indians didn't think he was a soldier. I was in a bookstore yesterday and bought Son of the Morningstar. I'm just starting to reread it.
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Post by augusta »

That's interesting, kssunflower. So they wouldn't know he was a soldier ... Maybe for when he went scouting ahead a little, like when he went up to the Crow's Nest?

He wore a white hat that day, which would make him quite visible, I'd think. And he led his troops. Didn't the Indians like to pick off the leaders first?

I wonder if the buckskin he wore was heavy and hot. It was supposed to be real hot that day.

I've always wondered why Custer could not see the village from the Crow's Nest? I think the village was 15 miles away. It seems like in the movie, "Son of the Morning Star", another officer went up there, too and I can't remember if that officer saw the horses of the village, that looked like a bunch of worms crawling in the grass to the scouts in the Nest. Did Custer need glasses maybe?

When his Indian scouts were putting on their battle regalia and singing their death song, I'd always only read that Custer told them they had done their duty and did not have to fight. But in the DVD, "The Untold Story", I was watching again recently, Custer was mad and said they acted like women, and I think he said he didn't want them going into battle with them. But Mitch Bouyer told the scouts that Custer said they had done their duty and did not have to fight. I wonder which was the right version of that?
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(Had photo that would not attach.)
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Post by kssunflower »

I think he actually made two trips to the Crow's Nest and was overhead making a comment that the battle would only last a couple hours because he only saw about 12 teepees. I don't know if he used glasses or not, but you'd think he would have.
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Post by augusta »

Hmm. Well, he would have been wise to have tried again. Could he have looked from another vantage point the second time?

It's never been clear to me if he knew how many Indians were in the village or not. Well, about how many. The number varies from source to source.

Yes, I've also read that he thought it'd be a quick battle. Well, he was right! :roll:
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Post by kssunflower »

While in my favorite bookstore yesterday, I browsed through an interesting book noting the parallels between Custer and Crazy Horse (think it's written by Stephen Ambrose?) I'll probably go back this weekend and buy it. I did notice it was the author's opinion also that no photos were even taken of Crazy Horse.

I nearly read in entirety a small book I found about the Sultana tradegy in April 1865. It was a severely overloaded Mississippi steamboat transporting about 2300 people, over 1800 of which were Union soldiers and many who had just been released from the infamous Andersonville prison camp in southern Georgia. (I got a chance to visit the camp when I lived near Atlanta. There's not much to see, but I had a really eerie feeling, knowing what had transpired there.) Over 1700 people perished when some of the boilers exploded north of Memphis. Apparently, there wasn't much publicity of this then as it was overshadowed by Lee's surrender and wartime end news. A comparison was made that this ship was much smaller than the Titanic, but with a greater loss of life. I love reading anything to do with the Civil War.
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Post by Kat »

Thanks for the interesing info on a little-known national tragedy!

Why not write about it for submission to The Hatchet?
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Post by kssunflower »

Thanks for the idea, Kat. Perhaps I will.
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Post by augusta »

I never heard of the boat sinking. Yes, it would be real interesting to read about. I hope you decide to do an article on it as Kat suggests.

I recently went to Fort Sumter. It was the first time I ever was there. It's a place I always wanted to go to. It's a lovely 45 minute boat ride out to its island in Charleston Harbor.

When I was a kid, our family took a vacation to Gettysburg and some of the battlefields from the Civil War. I've always wanted to study the war but never really have yet, tho I do dabble in the Lincolns.

Stephen Ambrose wrote about Custer? I have a book based on the one you saw, ks, but haven't gotten to reading it yet.

Do you think Custer committed suicide? (All comments welcome.)
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Post by kssunflower »

Augusta, 'Crazy Horse and Custer' is by Ambrose, but I still haven't had the chance to read it. As to whether he committed suicide, I know he had two gunshot wounds, one which was to the temple. Some articles I've read said there were no powder burns on his face, so he couldn't have fired the gun himself.
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Post by augusta »

There's a DVD from the History Channel.com called "The Battle of the Little Bighorn: The Untold Story". I saw it on tv several times and taped it on a VHS and watched that several times. It's more the Native American's view of the battle. They said Custer's side gunshot happened as Custer and some men were fording a stream, then they retreated and went to the hill.

I think I would have shot myself instead of letting the Indians get a hold of me. Just looking at some of those painted warriors is terrifying! Maybe someone else shot Custer, like his brother? But with all the bullets whirring around (didn't the Indians have good repeating rifles?) we'll never know. I didn't know that about the 'no powder burns' on him. That's real interesting.
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Post by kssunflower »

Yes, I think the 7th had mostly single-shot Springfield carbines and Colt revolvers while the Indians had many repeating guns. I just bought Ambrose's book and it contains some good photos of GAC and Libby I've never seen before. Hopefully, I'll get the chance to read most of it this weekend.
"To wives and sweethearts - may they never meet."
augusta
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Post by augusta »

Well, all this Custer talk has opened a whole new world for me. I went to Monroe, Michigan, and found the farmhouse GAC bought in 1871 with Libby, and went in halves with his brother, Nevin and wife, planning on living there in retirement.

It has changed dramatically since the ten years I've been to see it. The original red brick is covered with vinyl siding now, and there's a historic sign out front. (However, an interview with Nevin done in the early 1900's says that the farmhouse was covered in siding.) In any event, I am happy I have the older pictures when it was all brick.

While I was snapping photos, some man came up to me and turned me on to a fascinating Custer story nobody knows about. Of course, I'm following his lead and am working on it. Funny, he said he has never told anyone about it before. I guess I was in the right place at the right time. Anyway, if it's true, it'll be fascinating. And, if not, I'm still having fun researching. I get to do interviews and everything! I love that kind of writing - it's exciting!

I'm reading "The Custer Story" now and cannot put it down. It's edited by Marguerite Merington, who knew Libby for decades. Originally it was published in 1950 and consists of lots of letters Custer and his wife wrote. You find little personal tidbits in there, like the other day I was reading that Libby said Custer brushed his teeth after every meal and washed his hands so often. It's also said in there that Custer had very fair skin that burned easily in the sun. I wonder if they had something for sunscreen back then?

My copy was printed in 1994 by Barnes & Noble Books. I've had it on my shelf all this time and forgot all about it.

kss, how far along have you gotten with 'Son of the Morning Star' and the Crazy Horse/Custer book? Turns out I have the Ambrose book.
augusta
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Post by augusta »

Oh boy! I learned that next summer, the Little Big Horn Associates is having their convention in Monroe, Michigan. And a key speaker is going to be a descendant of Crazy Horse! How cool is that?

Also, I saw an ad the other day for "Son of the Morning Star" on DVD. I'm thinking it's a mistake, because it wasn't that long ago that I looked for one and only read that it was on VHS.

Kss - Recent reading hit on the tidbit you posted, that Custer wore buckskin to not look like a soldier.
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kssunflower
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Post by kssunflower »

Augusta, I am interested to hear this little known Custer story. I'm only halfway through the Ambrose book. Have been out of town for a couple weeks.
"To wives and sweethearts - may they never meet."
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